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Ardashir
Senior Scribe
USA
544 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Aug 2006 : 01:29:22
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In the Races of Faerun as well as the FRCS, we're told that dwarves are an interloper race in Faerun. Has it ever been said just where exactly they originally came from?
I doubt they came from Faerie, unless the elves kicked them out. ;) (Bah! More like the dwarves got tired of all the nonsense and just left.)
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2006 : 01:49:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
In the Races of Faerun as well as the FRCS, we're told that dwarves are an interloper race in Faerun. Has it ever been said just where exactly they originally came from?
I doubt they came from Faerie, unless the elves kicked them out. ;) (Bah! More like the dwarves got tired of all the nonsense and just left.)
they have never said where the dwarves came from...only that they appeared in the Yheamal (sp?) Mountains
I figure the Moradinsim placed them there |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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VonRaventheDaring
Learned Scribe
USA
197 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2006 : 01:52:09
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| I always assumed like the elves they came from other worlds! |
"Develop the latent abilities within you for that is your power alone. Psionics is the ultimate art of magic and you are its practitioner. Through lifelong dedication, strive to unite your will with your physical form to become one. Only through the unrestrained union of one’s mind and body can the magic of psionics truly be mastered. Throw off the yoke of any who would impose tyranny upon you. Likewise, do not ever force another to submit to your will. Free your mind, free yourself and you have only just begun the path to true psionic mastery. Free others, open their minds to the Invisible Art, and you will show them way to Auppenser."
---Dogma of the Church of Auppenser |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2006 : 01:54:38
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quote:
Originally posted by VonRaventheDaring
I always assumed like the elves they came from other worlds!
thats possible too..but there is alos the implication in D&D that in worlds (especially new worlds) the gods also "seed' planets with their children... |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Hunter In Darkness
Acolyte
USA
4 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2006 : 18:36:31
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| i alwys used they came from the plane of earth makes sense sence they showed up under a mountain and there are tons [lol] of portals to the planes of earth in the mountans of the realms |
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FridayThe13th
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2006 : 03:30:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Hunter In Darkness
i alwys used they came from the plane of earth makes sense sence they showed up under a mountain and there are tons [lol] of portals to the planes of earth in the mountans of the realms
I seem to agree with that.
Maybe the dwarves were crafted by the Earthmother on Faerun itself. |
"The Lady of Pain? You mean Loviatar runs this place?"
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Edited by - FridayThe13th on 25 Aug 2006 03:31:37 |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2006 : 03:37:30
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| Uh. The Earthmother has nothing innately to do with the Elemental Plane of Earth, if it's the same one (Chauntea) I'm thinking of. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2006 : 02:17:24
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I agree with VonRaventheDaring. Though other origin theories are possible, I believe that the Stout Folk arrived on Toril through one or more gates.
quote:
Originally posted by VonRaventheDaring
I always assumed like the elves they came from other worlds!
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Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2006 : 05:07:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
I agree with VonRaventheDaring. Though other origin theories are possible, I believe that the Stout Folk arrived on Toril through one or more gates.
quote:
Originally posted by VonRaventheDaring
I always assumed like the elves they came from other worlds!
I don't dislike that idea...but until 3E dwarves were supposed to be a relatively non-magical (arcane-wise) race (at least until the Thunder Blessing) so the idea of them migrating through gates/portals seems less likely to me (compared to elves) compared to divine intervention...like the creation of the Urdinir (sp?)
and I still haven't swallowed the Thunder Blessing as the excuse of how the dwarves now have so many sorcerers and wizards as the rest of the races do (considering the Thunder children are barely into teir adult years yet). What I really dislike is that in the ret-con of dwarves they are slowly making dwarves an arcane race even before the Thunder Blessing (like the secret college of magic in Ammarindar) |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36784 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2006 : 05:59:17
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Actually, the Thunder Blessing-dwarven magic thing is one of the things that's bugged me since I first read about the Thunder Blessing, before the FRCS came out. The Thunder Blessing is a perfect explanation for the resurgance of dwarven magic -- but they don't use it to explain dwarven magic. They run with the implication that dwarven magic has been around for as long as dwarves have...
Truly, though, I can see that, but not in the way they do it. Dwarven weapons have often incorporated magic, but where does the magic come from? An explanation that works for me is that the dwarves always had a few here and there that were like Eber-whatsit's artificers, but true arcane spellcasters were as rare as orc scholars. But then the Thunder Blessing returned true magic to the people... It's all non-canon, but it's an alternative to what we've been presented. |
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Ardashir
Senior Scribe
USA
544 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2006 : 19:05:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Actually, the Thunder Blessing-dwarven magic thing is one of the things that's bugged me since I first read about the Thunder Blessing, before the FRCS came out. The Thunder Blessing is a perfect explanation for the resurgance of dwarven magic -- but they don't use it to explain dwarven magic. They run with the implication that dwarven magic has been around for as long as dwarves have...
Truly, though, I can see that, but not in the way they do it. Dwarven weapons have often incorporated magic, but where does the magic come from? An explanation that works for me is that the dwarves always had a few here and there that were like Eber-whatsit's artificers, but true arcane spellcasters were as rare as orc scholars. But then the Thunder Blessing returned true magic to the people... It's all non-canon, but it's an alternative to what we've been presented.
I had the idea that the Gold and Grey Dwarves hd always had magic, never having 'lost' their arcane traditions (though the duergar might just have fooled everyone with psionics), that for some reason the shield dwarves were the ones who lost arcane magic. Though it'd be nice to know *how*... Hey! Now there's something for a trilogy covering the dwarves of Faerun!
(BTW, what about a character idea for a dwarven wizard who was inspired to follow the Art by dreams sent from Dugmaren Brightmantle and Mystra? Drives his clan nuts, of course, but what can you do with these kids today?) ;) |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2006 : 19:13:05
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I think (ignoring the changes to dwarves in 3E) the best way to judge what magic the dwarves had (of all types) is by using what magical devices they were allowed to use without the chance of magic item malfunction...
I think basically their magic was divine (even in 3E the dwarf rune master is a divine spellcaster) but there was a couple of 2e products (the Viking setting, the For Giants book [can't remember it's full name]) that gave dwarves rune magic, an arcane/divine magic...
the 3E dwrf is one of the bigger ret-cons of 3E (in my opinion) and one of the ret-cons I don't particulary like...I don't mind the idea of the rare dwarf wizard but a dwarf sorcerer should be an outcast at best (unless descended from divine or elemental fire or earth stock) but now that suddenly there are arcane dwarf spellcasters everywhere...  |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2006 : 19:17:40
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| The books title is Giantcraft. I agree that Runecasters are the most appropriate for dwarves; I still cant see them as wizards in the traditional sense. |
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Ardashir
Senior Scribe
USA
544 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2006 : 19:21:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
The books title is Giantcraft. I agree that Runecasters are the most appropriate for dwarves; I still cant see them as wizards in the traditional sense.
Which is the primary reason I think that the runecutting mage from Races of Stone would work great for a Realms dwarven mage. Adapting what they already know to another system of magic, and all. |
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Hunter In Darkness
Acolyte
USA
4 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2006 : 04:52:51
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| i see nothing wrong with the use of wizards i always took it as they had them just not many and it was seen as weak and undrawf like and there are many natural portals to the plane of earth in the spine of the world and othere mountain rangs thought the realms majice was not needed to cross them |
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Ateth Istarlin
Seeker
United Kingdom
80 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2006 : 13:06:08
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I agree - Although I still play 2E, I try to incorporate 3.0/3.5 lore as well. Before the thunder blessing, dwarves used clerical or runic magic only. Since the bessing, I allow them specialize in protection magic only (sorry - my mind just went blank & I can't remember the correct name) |
The more I read about 4FR, the more depressed I am.
Politician - An elected official who tries to be all things to all people, while always looking out for his/her own interests first. |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2006 : 13:36:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Ateth Istarlin
I agree - Although I still play 2E, I try to incorporate 3.0/3.5 lore as well. Before the thunder blessing, dwarves used clerical or runic magic only. Since the bessing, I allow them specialize in protection magic only (sorry - my mind just went blank & I can't remember the correct name)
Abjuration 
I would allow abjuration, divination, invocation/evocation, elemental earth, elemental fire and the alternate specialist schools (artifice, the writing one, etc.) |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2006 : 13:43:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Hunter In Darkness
i see nothing wrong with the use of wizards i always took it as they had them just not many and it was seen as weak and undrawf like and there are many natural portals to the plane of earth in the spine of the world and othere mountain rangs thought the realms majice was not needed to cross them
The point is they did not have any wizards in 1E/2E...it is all a 3E revision of the dwarves that the 3E Forgotten Realms designers allowed into the "new" 3E Realms which caused a huge canon ret-con pre-Thunder Blessing...It even says that Moradin "altered" his children (the dwarves) not only to be more fertile but allow them the ability to channel arcane energies with more ease (thus dwarven wizards)
and it wasn't weak or undwarvish, they practically could not biologically channel arcane energies...the dwarves were very strong in divine magic and the dwarves deep book states the ancient dwarves (as the first to enter the Realms) had rune magic (which is divine[ish]) that could rival elven high magic...
the only ret-con I can swallow is the idea of the very rare dwarf sorcerer pre-Thunder Blessing taht was descended from divine stock or had elemental ancestors
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Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2006 : 15:05:37
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Uh hum,
There were arcane wizards in 2e in FR lore but they were extremely rare, unlike how they are in current rules. So yes, there was a retcon to allow dwarves to have more arcane wizards but they did exist in 2e as well. Daggerford has one actually. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2006 : 16:00:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
There were arcane wizards in 2e in FR lore but they were extremely rare, unlike how they are in current rules. So yes, there was a retcon to allow dwarves to have more arcane wizards but they did exist in 2e as well. Daggerford has one actually.
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Also, don't discount the option Steven put into The Lost Level adventure that would allow anyone to become a dwarf and retain their skills. As I recall, that was one of the weirder ways in 2e to allow for dwarven wizards...
Ahh, I totally forgot about that Lost Level adventure...you have a valid point...and we can also discuss (in that subject) the "1/2 dwarves" bred just before the Thunder Blessing...taht may allow dwarven wizards even though they weren't really dwarves...
And I forgot about the Daggerford one too...but I always thought the Daggerford book (in the North boxset) very odd to begin with... |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36784 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2006 : 16:54:14
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quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
It even says that Moradin "altered" his children (the dwarves) not only to be more fertile but allow them the ability to channel arcane energies with more ease (thus dwarven wizards)
Nope, it does not say that. All the Thunder Blessing is said to affect is population -- nowhere can I find a reference to it having any affect on dwarven arcane magic, save to say that dwarven sorcerers are more common since the Thunder Blessing. And that's inconclusive, to me, since dwarves are more common since the Thunder Blessing.
That's why the retcon bugs me. In 2E, dwarves distrusted magic, and were so non-magical that items not specifically designed for their class or race had a chance to not function properly in dwarven hands. Then comes the Thunder Blessing, the perfect opportunity for dwarven arcane magic to be kick-started... And yet, all references to dwarven magic don't mention the Thunder Blessing, and all references to the Thunder Blessing don't mention arcane magic. The chance was there to explain it, but they didn't seize that chance. |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2006 : 17:05:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
It even says that Moradin "altered" his children (the dwarves) not only to be more fertile but allow them the ability to channel arcane energies with more ease (thus dwarven wizards)
Nope, it does not say that.
ahh thanks, my poor abused memory I'll go check into that tonight...I'm sure I read at least the indication that Moradin made the twins more magical... |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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hammer of Moradin
Senior Scribe
USA
758 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2006 : 17:59:32
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Wooly is right. It does not say anywhere that I have found, a specific reason that dwarves can use magic.
However, take what Kuje points out, that there were magic weilding dwarves in 2e, with the line that some of the thunder children, twins notably, are becoming wizards and sorcerers due to not having their parent's distrust of arcane magic, and you knock out part of the problem. Wooly pointed out, also, that they had a chance of failure when using magic items, et. al., which has not been explained away (unless losing your fear of magic opens up to losing your inablility to properly use it  ) and there you go. Still, I like the idea of a trilogy explaining why. The sourcebooks are just not big enough to explain this away. Oh, and it would be nice to have a good dwarven book. Throw in the arcane magic user with a disbeliever and you have the makings of an explanation. |
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Ardashir
Senior Scribe
USA
544 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2006 : 18:07:55
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Concerning the Xothol (the dwarven magic school of Ammarindar) and arcane magic or lack of same among the shield dwarves: as I recall, that was the only mention of arcane magic north of the Great Rift until recently in Realms time. And it seems odd that the dwarves would put all their time and effort into building a beyond top secret facility only to abandon it!
Maybe, just maybe, the dwarves were able to find a few of their folk with wizardly or sorcerous talent -- but not enough. Or maybe the price they would have had to pay, or did pay, for greater magical power convinced them to abandon the place. Certainly magical power doesn't come cheaply in the Realms; the Ammarindar dwarves may have learned the hard way just how dangerous magic can be.
But I agree with others; the Thunder Blessing makes sense as the best reason for widespread dwarven arcane magic use in the Realms. |
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Origin of the Dwarves
