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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Sep 2006 : 17:16:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
The "must be evil" doesn't make sense to me either, but then, you can change it if you like. Heck, there are apparently quite a few CG werewolves of Selune out there.
I think the evil part comes from "vixen" having the dual meaning of a manipulative or shrewish woman.
I felt that Selune's influence "purified" an evil natural lycanthrope's alignment to good...in my (epic  ) campaign I am developing I am working on an idea that (Days of Thunder time) Shar currupted the lycanthropes (who were servants of Selune and possibly Chauntea) and Selune now is trying to cleanse them...
and the "vixen" role does justify the NE alignment  |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2006 : 17:19:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Sean K Reynolds has a set of variant lycanthropy rules; it's a $5 pdf called Curse of the Moon. I've not looked thru it in great detail, but I know it attempts to fix what SKR feels are serious issues with 3.x lycanthropes, including alignment.
:)
http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=6960&src=RPGShop |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Ardashir
Senior Scribe
USA
544 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2006 : 23:50:23
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quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
The "must be evil" doesn't make sense to me either, but then, you can change it if you like. Heck, there are apparently quite a few CG werewolves of Selune out there.
I think the evil part comes from "vixen" having the dual meaning of a manipulative or shrewish woman.
I felt that Selune's influence "purified" an evil natural lycanthrope's alignment to good...in my (epic ) campaign I am developing I am working on an idea that (Days of Thunder time) Shar currupted the lycanthropes (who were servants of Selune and possibly Chauntea) and Selune now is trying to cleanse them...
and the "vixen" role does justify the NE alignment
I always thought it would have been Malar and not Shar who corrupted the lycanthropes. Admittedly, he does seem to be the "idiot cousin" of evil Realms deities, but their combination of bestial rage with a link to the natural world seems to make them a natural combination.
And I like the idea about NE alignment for foxwomen. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2006 : 00:20:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
I always thought it would have been Malar and not Shar who corrupted the lycanthropes.
I've actually had an idea along these lines... But I'm not going to say anything more on it until I decide what I'm doing with the overall concept. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2006 : 00:49:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
I always thought it would have been Malar and not Shar who corrupted the lycanthropes.
I like the sound of that.
Additionally, it plays well with the fact that F&P notes evil lycanthropes among Malar's worshippers, while Shar's does not.
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2006 : 01:46:01
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| Though it rather makes you wonder about Malar's origins. I like to link the Gods of Fury with Shar, ideaologically. I could quite easily see some sort of a rapport between Shar and Malar in the distant past of Faerun's pantheons. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2006 : 07:39:23
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I see Shar more as a being without emotion, whereas the Gods of Fury are the extremes of the same, so the ties between them don't come that easily to me personally.
As to the lycanthropes, I have no problem with the evil alignment, I see the good ones more as exceptions created by the blessings of Selune and Nobaion. As the gods of the lycanthropes have always been among my personal favorites I have never really tied most of the creatures to the realmsian gods anyway. In many ways the lycanthropes and their gods become something close to doppelgangers in my mind, creatures existing between the established forms and scavenging on both. A sort of primeval predators that have existed between the races since the beginning of time. |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2006 : 14:00:32
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I link Shar to lycanthropes simply because the lycanthropes are so closely linked to Selune, the moon...and where there is one involved the other one is always linked somehow...
another spin of the idea is I imagine some story of Shar and Jannath (Chauntea)...the lycanthropes are Jannath's (sp?) children and Shar drives them insane so Selune steps in and at least mitigates their madness to save the burgeoning races...
And while Malar is a pretty old god, I doubt he is one of the first primal gods (my definition of the gods first formed in the creation of the world) nor did he create lycanthropy. His battle with Herne in the novel Evermeet tells me Malar was once also an interloper god and/or a regional god...though I totally agree with you that Malar makes the best patron god of the evil lycanthropes
here is another idea (building on the Jannath theory): that Malar is the first true lycanthrope in the Realms, a Great Druid of Jannath that was currupted by Shar and became the progenator of the lycanthropy disease
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Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2006 : 14:17:50
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| Great ideas Kalin; it is one of the tshing I sometimes feel is lacking in the realms, the mythological stories (true and untrue) that explains the worldviews and ideas found among the different peoples and cultures. But that's another subject for another time. |
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Ardashir
Senior Scribe
USA
544 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2008 : 00:55:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
[quote]Originally posted by Jorkens
And here's the link: Realms Bestiary, Volume 1. It's a wonderful resource, and many of us are eagerly awaiting the long-anticipated release of Volume 2 (there is no set release date).
This is going to sound odd, but does anyone know more about the lady who drew the art that could be found in the Bestiary? Does she have more work online?
And, I vaguely recall reading a 3/3.5 book that listed 'foxweres' as creatures. I'm thinking is was in the original Tome of Horrors, but I'm not sure. Can anyone help me out? |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2008 : 01:17:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And here's the link: Realms Bestiary, Volume 1. It's a wonderful resource, and many of us are eagerly awaiting the long-anticipated release of Volume 2 (there is no set release date).
This is going to sound odd, but does anyone know more about the lady who drew the art that could be found in the Bestiary? Does she have more work online?
The art is credited to Noëlle Triaureau (except for one done by Tom Costa himself), and she does have a website: http://www.noelletriaureau.com/
I'm not sure how much stuff is on there; I just glanced at the site.
quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
And, I vaguely recall reading a 3/3.5 book that listed 'foxweres' as creatures. I'm thinking is was in the original Tome of Horrors, but I'm not sure. Can anyone help me out?
We've had wolfweres and jackalweres in the past, so I don't see why foxweres can't be in there. It might be a little too close to kitsune in concept, though. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 30 Sep 2008 01:19:31 |
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Ardashir
Senior Scribe
USA
544 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2008 : 19:13:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The art is credited to Noëlle Triaureau (except for one done by Tom Costa himself), and she does have a website: http://www.noelletriaureau.com/
I'm not sure how much stuff is on there; I just glanced at the site.
quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
And, I vaguely recall reading a 3/3.5 book that listed 'foxweres' as creatures. I'm thinking is was in the original Tome of Horrors, but I'm not sure. Can anyone help me out?
We've had wolfweres and jackalweres in the past, so I don't see why foxweres can't be in there. It might be a little too close to kitsune in concept, though.
First of all, thanks for the link to the lady's art.
Secondly, what would be wrong with 'western kitsune' as such? I thought that the Realms already did have kitsune-ish critters in Kara-Tur. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2008 : 20:58:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
Secondly, what would be wrong with 'western kitsune' as such? I thought that the Realms already did have kitsune-ish critters in Kara-Tur.
Oh, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with kitsune. I'm just saying that the concepts of foxweres and kitsune are pretty close to the same (minus the multiple tails and more magical nature, of course). For some people, that could be an issue. |
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Ardashir
Senior Scribe
USA
544 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2008 : 00:46:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
Secondly, what would be wrong with 'western kitsune' as such? I thought that the Realms already did have kitsune-ish critters in Kara-Tur.
Oh, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with kitsune. I'm just saying that the concepts of foxweres and kitsune are pretty close to the same (minus the multiple tails and more magical nature, of course). For some people, that could be an issue.
Thanks for explaining.
Personally I figured that foxwere = kitsune, at least for me. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2008 : 05:42:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
Secondly, what would be wrong with 'western kitsune' as such? I thought that the Realms already did have kitsune-ish critters in Kara-Tur.
Oh, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with kitsune. I'm just saying that the concepts of foxweres and kitsune are pretty close to the same (minus the multiple tails and more magical nature, of course). For some people, that could be an issue.
Thanks for explaining.
Personally I figured that foxwere = kitsune, at least for me.
That's an easy way of doing it, but there's a lot more to kitsune. The legends don't always agree (at least, the translations of them don't), but kitsune are often either tricksters (most Westerners seem to favor this concept of kitsune) or guardians, and have a variety of inherent magical powers. Plus, there's the whole thing of more tails meaning more age and power... So that's why I shy away from equating the two: it's only the loosest translation. It's kinda like saying a knight and a samurai are the same. |
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Ardashir
Senior Scribe
USA
544 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2008 : 23:35:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Personally I figured that foxwere = kitsune, at least for me.
[/quote]
That's an easy way of doing it, but there's a lot more to kitsune. The legends don't always agree (at least, the translations of them don't), but kitsune are often either tricksters (most Westerners seem to favor this concept of kitsune) or guardians, and have a variety of inherent magical powers. Plus, there's the whole thing of more tails meaning more age and power... So that's why I shy away from equating the two: it's only the loosest translation. It's kinda like saying a knight and a samurai are the same.
[/quote]
True enough, though there are different 'types' of kitsune.
1) The Chinese huli jing, literally 'bewitching werevixen', also a phrase used for a wanton woman. They are tricksters, sometimes act as patrons to scholars, but are mostly just plain horny vixens and like shapeshifting and having sex with mortal men. In a (3.5) game they'd probably be a kind of Fey with some spell-like abilities from the Illusion and Enchantment lists.
2) The Japanese kitsune, the classic Asian werefox. Again, mostly tricksters, though some become the wives and mothers of heroes (the great Japanese sorcerer, Abe No Mei, was supposed to be the son of a kitsune). Some are life-devouring demons, like the infamous White Jewel Maiden, Tamamo-no-Mae, but most just like pranking humans. And some did transform humans into other kitsune.
3) The Korean kumiho. Seducers, destroyers, deceivers, they live in graveyards and slaughter entire families (typically replacing the family matriarch first, and then killing and eating everyone else one after the other). They are supposed to be 1000-year old white foxes with nine tails. In a game they'd be Chaotic Evil in the worst sense -- Cyric would love these vixens -- and in real-world myths, I don't think I've ever found even one story of them behaving decently.
When I say 'use them as kitsune', I meant a werefox/foxwere with some bard or enchanter levels, manipulating the PCs with charms and illusions. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 00:22:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
When I say 'use them as kitsune', I meant a werefox/foxwere with some bard or enchanter levels, manipulating the PCs with charms and illusions.
Ah, okay. That works. |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 00:25:37
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| Scribes interested in this topic might want to check out Kij Johnson's excellent novel, The Fox Woman. |
My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
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Werefoxes of Faerun
