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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Aug 2006 : 06:48:56
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Just trying to nip the group-think that seems to be infecting scribes left and right before it gets any more out of hand.
RSE = Realms Shaking Event.
As in the kind of thing that affects the whole Realms.
Example: Time of Troubles.
Effect: Above ground, below ground, in the sea and everywhere in between, all the Realms and its inhabitants were affected by the ToT.
Thus, an RSE is not the kind of event that affects only a single region or only a city state or only a city or town, or even a few of such concurrently.
Example: the recent Rage of Dragons or the events of the Last Mythal trilogy.
An RSE is not a war in a nation or between two nations.
Example: The War in Cormyr or Unther battling Mulhorand.
Why am I pointing this out?
Well the current buzz around these halls is to make your voice heard by WotC. If you point out the recent events I mentioned in the second part of my post above in a letter to WotC and say, “Too many of these RSEs are bad!” well then you’re argument is going to look dumb to whomever reads it.
If, on the other hand, you say something like, “Too many events all over the Realms are happening too fast. I can’t keep up with the current lore and I feel like as soon as I ‘know’ a place you go and change it!”
OR
“My campaign uses portals like the FRCS recommends so we go all over the Realms, but you keep making all these big events happen and I’m having a hard time keeping track of what’s outdated in my FRCS. Slow down please!”
...well then you've got a shot at being listened to.
So, use the term RSE correctly. Otherwise, you’re just giving whomever reads your input at WotC an excuse to bypass it and move on to more informed customer opinions.
J. Grenemyer
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09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
Edited by - Sanishiver on 16 Aug 2006 06:51:30
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2006 : 07:22:35
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Didn't WotC itself say that these "RSEs" are used to further the timeline?
Do you have a preposition for a more appropriate general name to use? :)
(For purposes of shorthand.)
But I do sort of see where you're coming from. Though if WotC uses this as an excuse to ignore peoples' concerns, that's a pretty petty thing to do. Slight differences in terminology is hardly stupidity.
Perhaps PRSEs? Partly Realms Shaking/Shattering Events? |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
Edited by - GothicDan on 16 Aug 2006 07:26:32 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2006 : 07:22:43
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Good point Sanishiver.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2006 : 07:29:26
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If someone at WotC did use RSE like that, then they are using the term incorrectly.
OTOH, if it was in response to a poster or fan comment where said fan used "RSE", the WotC employee may have used the term simply as part of his or her response.
As to GD's question: sounds like a great opportunity for Candlekeep to lead the way on making up new terminology. Someone (anyone) be my guest.
J. Grenemyer |
09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2006 : 07:30:33
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Well...
The term came to prominence on REALMS-L in the 1990s. As I recall, 'Realms-Shattering Event' was first, with 'Shaking' appearing later as a softened form; both were current by the end of the decade. (Unfortunately, the older archives of the list, once stored at mpgn.com, seem to be lost.)
The Time of Troubles is certainly the model for RSEs, both for TSR/Wizards and the fans, and it's the only one that literally shook every part of the Realms, due to the disruption of magic. Other than that, what's an RSE and what isn't has been implicitly and overtly debated without a definite consensus, I think. (This isn't surprising, since 'world-shaking' and 'Earth-shattering' are usually used with varying levels of figurativeness.) Jeremy's is the narrowest I've heard, excluding most events usually thought (going by online correspondence) to be RSEs. But I agree that the term is sometimes used too broadly to be useful, and it shouldn't be a careless shorthand for anything at all that affects parts of the Realms.
Realms authors have often used 'RSE' to refer to events at the 'international' but not global level. So has Wizards of the Coast, both informally and in marketing materials; The Summoning, for instance, is advertised(!) as 'the most Realms-shaking event since The Threat from the Sea'. |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2006 : 07:57:55
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So, there it is.
It sort of depends on what one considers to be be a RSE, which was sort of my point.
I would consider it to be anything whose effects (immediate or long-term) could have a large effect on the Realms. For instance, Shade's attempts to irrigate Anauroch leading to flooding and droughts within hundreds of miles. That's certainly worthy of a RSE to me, wars fought aside. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2006 : 08:37:06
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Uh, Sanishiver, dear? Please look at this: http://ww2.wizards.com/books/Wizards/Guides/?doc=fr
Funnily enough, if you click on "Realms Shaking Events", then lo and behold!
The Avatar Series
The Netheril Trilogy
The Cormyr Saga
The Threat from the Sea
Return of the Archwizards
The Year of the Rogue Dragons
The Last Mythal
Sorry, but your personal, narrow definition of RSE is, apparently, not what Wizards officially thinks RSEs are. Bzzt!
EDIT: for good measure, here's a screenshot. See? Outlined in red, just so you can't miss it. :) |
Edited by - Winterfox on 16 Aug 2006 10:39:29 |
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2006 : 09:55:43
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Just because the Year of Rogue Dragons novels only follow a small group of people does not mean that its effects on Faerun aren't wide spread. If EVERY dragon in Faerun felt the effects of the rage and went terrorizing the region, I would consider that Realms Shaking, not just a small community like you suggested.
Also, let's look at the Last Mythal Trilogy for a moment...
Large scale destruction on Evermeet.
Large scale war in and around Evereska.
Legions of Silverymoons army killed battling demonfey.
Large numbers of Elves from the high forest joining the crusade.
The Dalelands racked with war.
Large number of Sembians involved in a war with the Demonfey.
Zhentil Keep drawn into battle and Hillsfar teken over by enemy forces, oh yeah, after being seriously damaged by Sarya.
Oh, and the reclammation of a city that has been dead for how many hundreds of years.
I fail to see how that is "the kind of event that affects only a single region or only a city state or only a city or town". |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2006 : 11:35:58
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Anyone who thinks that the Year of Rogue Dragon was confined to the NE corner of Faerun (and therefore not RSE) should take that arguement up with the founding fathers of Leilon, Callidyrr, Luskan, Saelmur, Mintar, Mirabar and Uluvin....... Im sure they'd be more than happy to set you straight
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“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
Edited by - Dargoth on 16 Aug 2006 11:37:01 |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2006 : 15:12:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Sanishiver
Well the current buzz around these halls is to make your voice heard by WotC. If you point out the recent events I mentioned in the second part of my post above in a letter to WotC and say, “Too many of these RSEs are bad!” well then you’re argument is going to look dumb to whomever reads it.
If, on the other hand, you say something like, “Too many events all over the Realms are happening too fast. I can’t keep up with the current lore and I feel like as soon as I ‘know’ a place you go and change it!”
OR
“My campaign uses portals like the FRCS recommends so we go all over the Realms, but you keep making all these big events happen and I’m having a hard time keeping track of what’s outdated in my FRCS. Slow down please!”
...well then you've got a shot at being listened to.
So, use the term RSE correctly. Otherwise, you’re just giving who ever reads your input at WotC an excuse to bypass it and move on to more informed customer opinions.
J. Grenemyer
"look dumb"...wow, that’s harsh considering you don't think every dragon (and about any dragon-type monster) in all of Aber-Toril (as there was a mythal that “encompassed all Faerûn” that caused the Rage) going nuts and killing/destroying anything that moves (and some things that don't move too)...
or how about the Return of the Archwizards series, where there was global warming, the breach of the Sharnwall, the rallying of the Western Heartlands and over 1/2 of the Realm’s governments having to take notice or action of the arrival of the Shades...not to mention the possible consequences of all this Netherese magic and history “awakening” in the Realms
I agree that WoTC has abused the idea of a RSE is and I also think you are a little confused about what a RSE really is so....so here is my admission for a definition of a Realms Shattering Event (or at least a framework of a definition). I also think you are confusing a RSE with a WSE ("World Shaking Events" [I'm claiming this term!  ])
OK, the ground rules...
#1 In the Gray Box "The Realms" was basically Faerûn, so we will use that definition
#2 A RSE is an event/occurrence that has a broad scope (thus affecting at least a huge region of the Realms) and a vast and/or lasting consequence to at least that region. And region does not have to be a geographic area of the Realms...it can also be a cultural or “organizational” RSE as long as that culture impacts on the rest of the Realms
#3 A RSE does not have to have an "atomic bomb" effect in the Realms. The hard part in determining a RSE is the fact the scope and consequence of the effect is sometimes not immediate...sometimes a RSE is like a detonating bomb at the base of a great dam and sometimes it is a small crack that will erode and widen until the dam collapses. Same result but different timeline of effect (For example there has been hints that the full consequences of The Sundering/The Creation of Evermeet still have not been realized...or the impact of Khelban stealing the Sceptre of the Sorcerer Kings).
#4 A WSE is just like a RSE but also impacts outside of on the rest of Aber-Toril, at least with one other continent/sub-continent involved (The Hordelands, Zakhara, Kara-Tur, Maztica and the unknown/undescribed lands)
So we’ll list most of the known WSE (the obvious, easy ones)
* Tearfall (has been implied in canon)
* The Sundering
* The Fall of Netheril (which is an excellent example of an event in one small region that affected the whole planet immediately and for centuries to come)
* Dawn Cataclysm (currently unexplained so it may not have been a WSE but the idea of Lathander trying to remove all the evil in the world sounds like a WSE to me)
* The Time of Troubles/Gods Fall
* The Horde
* The Rage
* The Return of Shade (the global warming/weather disruption)
possible WSE could be (and remember #3 the “long term” consequence of a WSE/RSE)
* The “discovery” of Maztica
* Durpar’s increased trade with Zakhara
Now, since I don’t have my books with me nor the time to go through all of the historical timeline, I’ll use some recent events to list some RSEs (I’ll start around 1356 DR)
* Azoun IV’s Crusade
* The Elven Retreat (and Return/Crusade)
* Lolth’s Silence
* The Return of Shade (the "local" consequences)
* Bane’s Rebirth
* The Invasion from the Seas
Possible RSE could be (have been) (and remember #3 the “long term” consequence of a WSE/RSE)
* The Dragonspear Wars
* Any dragon flight
* Lashan’s invasion of the Dales
* Tethyr's Reclamation Wars
* The War of Gold and Steel
* Halaster’s Harvestide (yes huge scope but long term consequences?)
* The Manshoon Wars
* The Cormyr Wars
* The formation of the League of the Silver Marches
* The Resurrection of Miyeritar
I hope this helps |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2006 : 01:56:41
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Sorry Sani, but I don't entirely agree with you--I see "Realms-Shaking Event" as a phrase (albeit a probable misnomer) that simply means "setting-shaking" or setting changing. I do believe WotC itself uses the term this way.
You could say that when the Elves took back Cormanthor, that didn't "shake up all Faerun", but it shook up the Realms setting as we know it. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 17 Aug 2006 02:00:22 |
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2006 : 07:50:35
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Howdy Folks,
Make no mistake, I’m as familiar with the term’s history as anyone else. I had thought it obvious to everyone (even younger gamers) that it was reserved for continent/world wide events that were so disruptive that it made it possible to adjust D&D game mechanics as a result.
I certainly don’t recall debates as to the scope of the term’s meaning over the years.
Regrettably Wizards has diluted the term by co-opting it in marketing and website materials. That’s unfortunate because such is an undisciplined and misleading use of the term.
Yet even I have to admit that with the passage of time and the emergence of younger gamers, the term RSE (like so many other words and phrases) seems to have evolved to encompass events not nearly on the scale with the ToT.
Those trilogies Winterfox so tartly pointed out are examples of such where term is hardly appropriate as a descriptor, yet is used all the same.
So I’ll grudgingly accept this (and look down on it, too) because I’m now not nearly as worried WotC staffers will read the term on a piece of feedback, roll their eyes and toss it into the trash bin with a sign above it that reads, “The Sky Is Falling! The Sky Is Falling!” before they’ve even finished reading what you or I had to say to them.
I hope scribes will take head though, and couch your feedback in terms of how this or that affects your D&D game play or the selection of novels you choose to read (even when you talk about what future products you’d like to see).
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
I think I’ll go ask Rich Baker on his Chamber of Sages scroll how best to structure feedback comments so they’re of as much use as possible to WotC.
J. Grenemyer
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09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2006 : 09:03:56
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quote:
Make no mistake, I’m as familiar with the term’s history as anyone else. I had thought it obvious to everyone (even younger gamers) that it was reserved for continent/world wide events that were so disruptive that it made it possible to adjust D&D game mechanics as a result.
As one of the younger gamers (21).... I had no idea that the term was meant specifically to apply to events that were so great as to cause changes in game mechanics. Probably because no one I've ever heard of before this thread has ever used the term in such a manner. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2006 : 09:17:35
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| So, according to your definition, are their any events that shook the realms other than the Time of Troubles? |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2006 : 11:22:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Sanishiver
Those trilogies Winterfox so tartly pointed out are examples of such where term is hardly appropriate as a descriptor, yet is used all the same.
No more tartly than telling someone they "look dumb" by using a term the way Wizards themselves use; no more tartly than barging in and telling everyone that they're being "infected" with "group-think" like sheep or lemmings. :) Unless, of course, you consider telling someone "doing this makes you look dumb" to be perfectly polite conduct.
As for the rest? You sound like an amateur Latinate purist stomping his foot about the fact that nobody (including professional linguists) takes "split infinitives are wrong!" or "sentences can't begin with conjunctions!" seriously anymore. "RSE" is a phrase and is a part of language. Strangely enough, language evolves and meanings of terms change, especially given a communicative media as rapid and mutable as the Internet. By all means, enjoy "looking down" on it all you like. Just don't expect anybody to thank, applaud, or adore you for it. |
Edited by - Winterfox on 17 Aug 2006 11:30:15 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2006 : 16:19:41
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| ...And I think we've gone far enough with this thread. Sorry, folks, but we're done with this discussion. |
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Please use “RSE” correctly
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