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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Aug 2006 : 22:38:10
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I just started reading Prophet of Moonshae, and it mentions a book on the wars of the sword coast written by Elminster of Waterdeep...
Did good ole El ever live in Waterdeep for a longer time? Or is this just one of the things TSR editors missed back in the 90s? Not that they miss less now...
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Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2006 : 23:15:20
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| Elminster isn't a totally rare name in Faerun, if I remember correctly. :) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
Edited by - GothicDan on 13 Aug 2006 23:15:33 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2006 : 23:41:22
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IIRC, *the* Elminster once did live in Waterdeep.
I still think using that name for other NPCs is asking for trouble, though, considering all the confusion it causes.
Would you really take a random drow named "Drizzt" that seriously? Would you be able to think of him without thinking of THE Drizzt? |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2006 : 01:15:47
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
Elminster isn't a totally rare name in Faerun, if I remember correctly. :)
Aye.
Actually, the 2e FR boxed set goes into this somewhat.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Reefy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
892 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2006 : 02:36:18
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And beware of using famous persons' names to try and add mettle to your own work - see Elminster's Choice for more details.  |
Life is either daring adventure or nothing. |
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FridayThe13th
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2006 : 02:52:22
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They might have confused his with Khelben "Blackstaff" Arusun, the other big wizard in the realms.
But more likely Elminster of Waterdeep is just named after the famous one. Still, I do find it funny that the authors, out of all the names in the realms, would give him a name that is akin to that of possibly the most famous NPC in the Realms. |
"The Lady of Pain? You mean Loviatar runs this place?"
-- Torilian Prime
"You guys should seriously rename yourselves The Horny Society, you popularity would soar."
-- A miscillaneous Kender to a member of the Horned Society
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2006 : 02:58:20
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.. How do you confuse Khelben with Elminster?
And there's a LOT of big wizards in the Realms. :) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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FridayThe13th
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2006 : 03:02:09
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
.. How do you confuse Khelben with Elminster?
And there's a LOT of big wizards in the Realms. :)
Its quite easy. Just point out any old, bearded wizard in Waterdeep(and there are a lot) and say he is Elminster. A commoner in the Realms could hardly make the distinction |
"The Lady of Pain? You mean Loviatar runs this place?"
-- Torilian Prime
"You guys should seriously rename yourselves The Horny Society, you popularity would soar."
-- A miscillaneous Kender to a member of the Horned Society
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2006 : 03:18:11
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| Well, neither Khelben nor Elminster are really 'known' in Faerun. Well, maybe Khelben somewhat, but not old El. :) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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FridayThe13th
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2006 : 03:23:06
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
Well, neither Khelben nor Elminster are really 'known' in Faerun. Well, maybe Khelben somewhat, but not old El. :)
But what they do know about El is that he is an old, bearded wizard, nothing more. So they would easily think that any old bearded wizard calling himself El is actually him. |
"The Lady of Pain? You mean Loviatar runs this place?"
-- Torilian Prime
"You guys should seriously rename yourselves The Horny Society, you popularity would soar."
-- A miscillaneous Kender to a member of the Horned Society
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2006 : 03:34:26
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| ... Not everyone would know who he is, though. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2006 : 03:46:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
I just started reading Prophet of Moonshae, and it mentions a book on the wars of the sword coast written by Elminster of Waterdeep...
Did good ole El ever live in Waterdeep for a longer time? Or is this just one of the things TSR editors missed back in the 90s? Not that they miss less now...
Elminster has actually been to the Moonshae isles his travels are detailed in the old Moonshae accesory |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2006 : 05:36:41
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Hes old, he has a beard and is a mage. There are a few others of those as well, I don't think there to much of a chance that its a mix-up of Elminster and Khelben.
As have been said, the names of Faerun are not unique for the individual; the reason we only see them as such in products is to keep the reader from getting confused. The fact that the character in question is named Elminster of Waterdeep shows that this is another person with the same name, not the sage of Shadowdale. |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2006 : 08:55:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
IIRC, *the* Elminster once did live in Waterdeep.
I still think using that name for other NPCs is asking for trouble, though, considering all the confusion it causes.
Would you really take a random drow named "Drizzt" that seriously? Would you be able to think of him without thinking of THE Drizzt?
Maybe it was him who wrote the book. I just stumbled over the thingy. If El did live in Waterdeep for a time then it's probably him. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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FridayThe13th
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2006 : 01:17:55
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| Or we can take the realistic, reasonable explanation and say it was a typo or printing error. Maybe they accidentally out Elminster when they actually intended to put someonelse. Who knows? Elminster is always on the minds of the minds of FR, so they could have easily made the error. |
"The Lady of Pain? You mean Loviatar runs this place?"
-- Torilian Prime
"You guys should seriously rename yourselves The Horny Society, you popularity would soar."
-- A miscillaneous Kender to a member of the Horned Society
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2006 : 01:23:47
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Elminster did live in Waterdeep for a time - after the fall of Myth Drannor and before his move to Shadowdale. It was during this time that he studied with Arkhon the Old, recently given life by Ed in his replies here at Candlekeep.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2006 : 10:04:53
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It is quite possible that the Elminster in question is the sage of Shadowdale, or it could be a completely different person by the same name. I don't think its a mistake by author or editor. There's also the possibility of it being an other writer using the Elminster name to get attention, but the "of Waterdeep" bit makes me doubt that. There isn't a single one of these possibilities that stands out as more probable than the others.
Anyone know a contact to Doug Niles so we can ask him if he remembers who he meant the author to be? |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2006 : 11:33:50
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| I could try...but I'd prolly complain more about the horrid German used in "Fox on the Rhine" |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2006 : 11:44:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
I could try...but I'd prolly complain more about the horrid German used in "Fox on the Rhine"
Sounds like an alternative the Sweet song.
It would be interesting to get some sort of update on the Moonshaes in one form or the other. As the books were behind the timeline when published (or rather, the timeline was put before the books) there is quite a time span we have not heard about in the islands.
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2006 : 12:20:10
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| I dunno how well the Moonshae books sold or sell. Admittedly, the first trilogy got more compelling at the end, but ... well, I just don't know. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
729 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2006 : 14:32:05
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Elminster did live in Waterdeep for a time - after the fall of Myth Drannor and before his move to Shadowdale. It was during this time that he studied with Arkhon the Old, recently given life by Ed in his replies here at Candlekeep.
-- George Krashos
If memory serves me right (I don't have the FR Timeline with me right now), Elminster moved to Shadowdale in 1350 DR (or thereabouts), so he has not been "of Shadowdale" all that long - heck, it's even a surprise that he's currently known as "of Shadowdale", after having spent so much time elsewhere .
And the FR2 - Moonshaes supplement detailed events and NPCs from well before the first Moonshae trilogy (which took place 1345 - 1346 DR). Which, personally, I have always found one of the oddest things - much of the lore in the supplement was, from the point of viez of the then-timeline, invalid as it was published - the Ffolk Kingdoms had been united under a new High King, several of the NPCs in described in the supplement were quite dead (a couple of the Northmen kings come to mind...). |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2006 : 14:51:35
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| There is that...in the second trilogy the Earthmother is reinstated if the backcover is any indication, which still doesn't bring back some of the corpses... |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2006 : 15:19:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
There is that...in the second trilogy the Earthmother is reinstated if the backcover is any indication, which still doesn't bring back some of the corpses...
Note: TSR could never decide if she really was reinstated or if she was just an aspect of Chauntea. 2E books go back and forth about this and WOTC kept it that she wasn't a seperate deity but an aspect of Chauntea even though the Moonshae trilogies say something different, as does 1 or 2 other 2e sourcebooks. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 15 Aug 2006 15:20:31 |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2006 : 15:48:30
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| The problem with the aspect part is that it really doesn't mix well with the storylines. Not that another deity really matters in the mix... |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2006 : 16:07:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
The problem with the aspect part is that it really doesn't mix well with the storylines. Not that another deity really matters in the mix...
I know. :( Which is why I kept it that she is a seperate deity since that made more sense to me because the Moonshea trilogies say she is a seperate deity, and as I said, so does one or two other sourcebooks. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2006 : 16:22:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
There is that...in the second trilogy the Earthmother is reinstated if the backcover is any indication, which still doesn't bring back some of the corpses...
Note: TSR could never decide if she really was reinstated or if she was just an aspect of Chauntea. 2E books go back and forth about this and WOTC kept it that she wasn't a seperate deity but an aspect of Chauntea even though the Moonshae trilogies say something different, as does 1 or 2 other 2e sourcebooks.
I tend to keep the aspect of the Earthmother separate, for the most part. This is mostly to acknowledge the original set up for the relationship in the trilogy... but also, because of the actual non-Realms origin of the Moonshaes.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2006 : 17:17:45
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I allways saw the "Earthmother is an aspect of Chaunthea" as a logic used by people of the mainland to explain the unknown goddess, much as one saw among the Romans towards the gods of other peoples.
As to how well the Moonshae books sold; WOtC did re-print them so they must at least have had a hope of them selling. |
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ode904
Learned Scribe
Finland
193 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2006 : 21:51:52
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| This quite confusing topic is going a bit off-topic... Elminster isn't a totally rare name in the Realms? A new thing to me. I would be a bit worried if I'd confuse elminster with khelben;). But yes, these kinds of mistakes like this ''Elminster of Waterdeep'' maybe a bit difficult. I would take care not to create more Elminsters:)... |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2006 : 22:15:48
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When it comes to naming in any gaming product clarity goes before logic as logic is seldom clear and easy. That each persons name in the realms is unique is unrealistic, but if there were seventeen Elminsters, three Semmemons and a dozen Dousts it would get confusing for those getting into the realms.
In the 1ed. campaign setting (I believe) Elminster was used as an example of names that could be found several places, I still believe this Elminster of Waterdeep was a result of this. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2006 : 22:31:21
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TSR also didn't like to reuse names because they had a theory that it would confuse people to much. Ed's discussed it a few times, so rarely did you see an NPC that had the same name as another NPC. I still love Elfinster from Zakhara who left Shadowdale because he kept being confused with Elminster.
I believe that some of the names in FR are reused a lot. I mean look at Earth, how many people do you see named after Saints, etc. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2006 : 22:32:10
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FR0C p. 7:quote:
For example, there may well be an Elminster the Barber, or Elminster of Waterdeep, but the reference of "Elminster" (or even the more modest "Elminster the Sage") refers to the advisor without peer who resides in Shadowdale.
quote:
Originally posted by Thauramarth
If memory serves me right (I don't have the FR Timeline with me right now), Elminster moved to Shadowdale in 1350 DR (or thereabouts), so he has not been "of Shadowdale" all that long - heck, it's even a surprise that he's currently known as "of Shadowdale", after having spent so much time elsewhere .
That's when he retired there permanently, but he may have been associated with Shadowdale before. |
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Elminster of Waterdeep???
