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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 14:27:57
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Karsus was a jerk. He allways talked about him being the greatest, the wisest and so on. He would have never admitted someone else being more powerfull than him and in the triolgy the only source about his greatnes his what he says about himself and what others in his enclave think about him. Never what other archwizards say about him.
And he took the war serious because he made hell of a lot preparations for it and was looking foward to prove everyone else that he is the greatest. Which failed obviously. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 14:35:39
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| Never did an archwizard admit one is more powerful than s/he is---their haughtiness and vanity would not allow them to. So of course, you wouldn't hear a single archwizard saying Karsus was the most powerful among them... |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 14:46:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Same thing. He vanished before the Fall. That's too unlikely to be a coincidence.
That's like saying that if someone leaves their house and it catches fire and burns to the ground an hour later, it's not a coincidence.
All we know is that Ioulam wasn't home when Karsus tried out for the position of God of Fools. We don't have enough info to assume anything else. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 15:00:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Same thing. He vanished before the Fall. That's too unlikely to be a coincidence.
That's like saying that if someone leaves their house and it catches fire and burns to the ground an hour later, it's not a coincidence.
Ioulaum is not just someone. He's an archwizard of prodigious strength. He would know things no common people ever would. As for the other archwizards who perished...well, we can say they were not as powerful and as clever as Ioulaum and Larloch. Or to simply put it, TSR didn't think them significant. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 15:09:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Same thing. He vanished before the Fall. That's too unlikely to be a coincidence.
That's like saying that if someone leaves their house and it catches fire and burns to the ground an hour later, it's not a coincidence.
Ioulaum is not just someone. He's an archwizard of prodigious strength. He would know things no common people ever would. As for the other archwizards who perished...well, we can say they were not as powerful and as clever as Ioulaum and Larloch. Or to simply put it, TSR didn't think them significant.
Actually, I'd say a combination of the two positions here, may be somewhat closer to the truth. Perhaps Ioulaum was off doing "archwizardy" things -- and it was just pure coincidence that he was absent during the Fall. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 15:13:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Same thing. He vanished before the Fall. That's too unlikely to be a coincidence.
That's like saying that if someone leaves their house and it catches fire and burns to the ground an hour later, it's not a coincidence.
All we know is that Ioulam wasn't home when Karsus tried out for the position of God of Fools. We don't have enough info to assume anything else.
The info in the sourcebook points to his fame and the interference it had on his research being the reason for leaving.
Ioulaum's position and standing with the populace lead to them looking to him for the answers to everything and taxing his time. Thus he retreated to his hidden lair to continue his work in solace.
There was never any indication that he would take it upon himself to face Karsus in single combat to stop him. Even if he wanted to, he would first need to get to him or Karsus to Ioulaum to face off. A feat beyond either of them short of conquering the opposing enclave in an all out war. You could not simply teleport over to another enclave without permission and face off against their leader. It was impossible. |
Edited by - Firestorm on 23 Jan 2011 15:14:11 |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 15:14:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Same thing. He vanished before the Fall. That's too unlikely to be a coincidence.
That's like saying that if someone leaves their house and it catches fire and burns to the ground an hour later, it's not a coincidence.
Ioulaum is not just someone. He's an archwizard of prodigious strength. He would know things no common people ever would. As for the other archwizards who perished...well, we can say they were not as powerful and as clever as Ioulaum and Larloch. Or to simply put it, TSR didn't think them significant.
They are hardly the only Archwizards to survive the fall. Literally hundreds of them survived. |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 15:23:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Same thing. He vanished before the Fall. That's too unlikely to be a coincidence.
The spell was allowed to happen because he vanished. Not vice versa. Ioulaum's disappearance during the war with the phaerimm moved the high mages into telling Karsus to do it.
It does not really matter. Nobody can stop another from casting a spell on a whim, or simply fly up to their enclave and stop them easily. Spellguards, wards and Mythallars prevent even the strongest of mages from simply teleporting over and saying "you can't cast that!". Saying "if he could have stopped him, he would have" is illogical in the sense of 1 on 1 combat. No 1 wizard can possibly march through an army of other archwizards to get to the head of a conclave and stop him from casting a spell.
In any case, if you want to read a full accounting of that in novel form, it is in the novel "Dangerous games" Arcane age series book 2.
I already read that book.
You made it sound that Ioulaum was the reason Karsus cast his avatar spell. 'Tis the phaerimm that's the reason.
Below is taken from Dangerous Games scene where Karsus told Candlemas his ultimate goal:
quote:
"Oh, I decided now's as good a time as any." Karsus waved vaguely toward the fallen star as he said, "My helpers think all is ready—not that they really understand what I plan...
And I'm tired of being human. So I'll become an avatar, which is a being created from a god's body, in case you don't know. Karsus's avatar, named after myself. I figure to sit on the star, imagine myself ascending to godhood, and draw all the remaining energy through my spine into my brain."
Karsus decided (see the highlighted line above) on what time he would cast the avatar spell at a mere whim, not because Ioulaum vanished.
And that book is in part conflict with some of the canon info provided by sourcebooks.
In either case, it seems like the point you are trying to make(I could be wrong) is that Karsus was more powerful because Ioulaum did not try to stop him, which is just hypothetical.
The Phaerimm were the reason obviously. But Ioulaum's disappearance was also a big push for Karsus to cast the spell because Ioulaum was so instrumental in everything in the empire, and they panicked when he vanished. Having the most powerful known Archwizard, who was 2944 years old disappear during a time of crisis has an effect on the populace. Karsus at age 357, while genius level and probably considered as powerful as Ioulaum, just did not have the fame and influence Ioulaum did.
In any case, this has been queried to Ed many times and is always brushed off as NDA. It is one of those cases where the DM decides. |
Edited by - Firestorm on 23 Jan 2011 15:26:05 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 15:39:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Same thing. He vanished before the Fall. That's too unlikely to be a coincidence.
That's like saying that if someone leaves their house and it catches fire and burns to the ground an hour later, it's not a coincidence.
All we know is that Ioulam wasn't home when Karsus tried out for the position of God of Fools. We don't have enough info to assume anything else.
Even if he wanted to, he would first need to get to him or Karsus to Ioulaum to face off. A feat beyond either of them short of conquering the opposing enclave in an all out war. You could not simply teleport over to another enclave without permission and face off against their leader. It was impossible.
Karus could have killed Ioulaum had he heeded Candlemas's advice. Below is a scene form Dangerous Games.
quote:
"Time, milord, time! Consider this: if you could reach back in time the same way you grabbed the fallen star, and the barbarian and mysel —you could seize Ioulaum when he's just beginning his magic research! If you dragged him here, you could imprison him! He'd never become a great mage, one they whisper is almost as great as you. He'd never create the flying enclave of Ioulaum, and you'd have won the war without ever leaving this room! You'd be the most famous of this, and every other epoch in the empire!
Due to his arrogance, and twisted certainty that his avatar spell would work, he dismissed the pudgy wizard's suggestion. Below is the continuation of their conversation.
quote:
"I must tell you, dear Carpalmen, that you're a clever fellow, but a mere birdbrain compared to He Who Knows Everything and Tells Naught."
"He Who—?"
"Me!" Karsus beamed. "Because what you've outlined is fine, but I've conceived a true ultimate weapon!"
Candlemas felt faint and cold, as if all his blood had run out his feet. Pockall's Hex, what now? Calm as possible, he asked the source of this ultimate weapon.
"Myself!" Karsus cried and slapped his chest, giggling so hard he almost fell over.
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Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 15:40:23
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| Karsus's time spell could have easily erased Ioulaum from history. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 16:08:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Karsus's time spell could have easily erased Ioulaum from history.
In which case someone might have taken his place and done exactly the same things Ioulaum did. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 16:11:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Karsus's time spell could have easily erased Ioulaum from history.
Assuming, of course, that the time-stream works that way. And there's no evidence to prove that it does. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 16:17:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Karsus's time spell could have easily erased Ioulaum from history.
In which case someone might have taken his place and done exactly the same things Ioulaum did.
Fair enough. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 16:37:09
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| I remember Ioulaum had some business in the swamp and left Karsus to his delusions, he had a feeling Netheril was doomed sooner or later, the decadence was too great |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 16:44:41
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| That's a pretty brilliant counter, Wooly. You reminded me of what I did to some of my characters. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 17:20:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Karsus's time spell could have easily erased Ioulaum from history.
In which case someone might have taken his place and done exactly the same things Ioulaum did.
Or in which case, the world would never have known Mythallar's, and Karsus would not have been what he had been, being forced to work with lesser tools and learn things Ioulaum invented on his own. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2011 : 00:43:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
Or in which case, the world would never have known Mythallar's, and Karsus would not have been what he had been, being forced to work with lesser tools and learn things Ioulaum invented on his own.
I think the properties of mythallars would've been discovered eventually. The concept of a magic battery isn't that impossible for other master arcanists to conceive. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2011 : 00:45:54
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| Karus would have discovered them, or someone else would. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2011 : 08:32:05
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Karsus may not even have been born.
And there is a good chance that the specific spell Karsus used to get the stone only worked on the stone. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2011 : 23:12:32
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| Maybe. But most likely he'd have a contingency for that. I'd be happy if he'd be reborn as a less mad archwizard. He'd be doubly far dangerous by then. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2011 : 23:56:56
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I submit that there are more Karsus clones awaiting out there,
and that they are just waiting for the soul to escape the
Dire Wood. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2011 : 00:28:42
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| Clones? That's fine as long as they are all nigh-indestructible, unlike the Roach's feeble clones that got easily obliterated almost every time Elminster or an archlich threw a spell at it. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2011 : 02:17:42
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Well, non-living clones have no protection other that
what the caster protects it with. Witness what happen
to the Karsus cloan in Temp of El. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2011 : 03:11:15
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I'm talking about "when the clone becomes active," it should not be pathetically weak. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2011 : 03:43:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I'm talking about "when the clone becomes active," it should not be pathetically weak.
Well to be fair.....by the time you get fried and then your essence goes into your clone, your spell roster will be pretty small....hence Manshoon's walk of shame through Zhentil Keep |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 04:27:26
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That's why should Karsus use clones, I'd prefer that he'd use more advanced ways to make sure his clones are nearly as powerful as his "original" self. I don't want to see more cockroaches in the Realms. One (Manshoon) is already enough. More than enough.
Speaking of clones, had Manshoon got that idea from the multiple phyllacteries of Aumvor (who predates the former)? Clones and phyllacteries are hardly the same, yet they share one purpose: to have multiple copies of one's self. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 14:38:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
That's why should Karsus use clones, I'd prefer that he'd use more advanced ways to make sure his clones are nearly as powerful as his "original" self. I don't want to see more cockroaches in the Realms. One (Manshoon) is already enough. More than enough.
Speaking of clones, had Manshoon got that idea from the multiple phyllacteries of Aumvor (who predates the former)? Clones and phyllacteries are hardly the same, yet they share one purpose: to have multiple copies of one's self.
Well, the purpose is more or less continued existence without fear of death. Should they get captured it could become a curse lol.
Assuming of course that the original Manshoon isn't puppet mastering all these lesser clones from a crypt. |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 14:59:23
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I think Manshoon puppet masters some, but only to the extent to push a clone in a general
direction, not as a micromanager. |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2012 : 04:15:53
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quote:
Originally posted by althen artren
I think Manshoon puppet masters some, but only to the extent to push a clone in a general
direction, not as a micromanager.
Well, it was just that old NDA question/Theory on whether the real Manshoon was a puppetmaster nobody knows about on a level with the Elminsters and Larloch's of the realms. |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2012 : 07:16:42
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| I hope WOTC uses the existing archmages that the Realms already has rather than spinning new ones. The Realms is rich in arcane magic and its users and it seems such a shame to leave many of them NDA or just plain lurching in the dark. NDA's are good and all but too many of them just makes a bit of a mess( at least to me it does) |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Top 50 Spellcasters "Alive" In Faerun
