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kaeso
Acolyte
USA
36 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 19:12:33
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I do not know a great deal about the history of Faerun, but at first glance it seems to me that most of the "movers and shakers" of Faerun are all humans, elves, or part elves. Where are the dwarves, halflings and gnomes?
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Great literature is escapist, but it changes you, and you come back to your world with new eyes. D&D is the first game that's ever done that for me.
-Sumana Harihareswara |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 19:43:12
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| Dwarves, halflings and gnomes have always been the second-string races of the Realms... |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 19:58:12
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The gnomes are considered the "forgotten folk" in Faerûn because of their attitude of never fall in the desire of build great empires, marvelous civilizations, etc.
It´s a racial attitude that have served well for them, until now.
The halflings could be stated as the gnomes...
For the dwarves, we are still waiting for an author-hero of the dwarven people, that will give us a good sourcebook.
Dwarves of Faerûn.... sounds good  |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 20:32:31
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The dwarven civilizations are as important, by most measures, as the elven.
And don't ignore the dragons, giants, orcs, demons and devils...
Of course, this is the 'big man', 'macroscopic events' theory of history, at which halflings and gnomes shrug or chuckle sadly. The 'real people's lives' kind of history is different. |
Edited by - Faraer on 09 Aug 2006 20:34:50 |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 20:50:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
The dwarven civilizations are as important, by most measures, as the elven.
And don't ignore the dragons, giants, orcs, demons and devils...
Of course, this is the 'big man', 'macroscopic events' theory of history, at which halflings and gnomes shrug or chuckle sadly. The 'real people's lives' kind of history is different.
I didn't mean second string in the Realms/game world..I was thinking more in the real designers/writers world
in my opinion the dwarves have done more to steadily influence Realms history in a wide-ranging manor with trade, invention, holding back the humanoid hordes, etc.
while the elves impact on the world is more like quiet non-involvement then short bursts of radical change...unfortunately more often in a negative way as a positive way (i.e. the Sundering, the Crown Wars) when it is wide-ranging manor
* waiting for the flaming from the elf super-fans to begin  hee hee * |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 20:59:40
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I think the focus on elven people, both elves and drow since the late 90's, a bit to much for my taste. It has come to the point that it sometimes feels like elves and humans are about all we hear about. I know that is an exaggeration, but it feels like the other races are pushed more and more into the background.
One problem may be the changes done to gnomes and haflings lately. Most of the older lore on these are drastically changed by the 3ed reworking of these peoples and they have not been reestablished as I see it. I prefer the old gnomes and haflings anyway, but there has been so little said that i still have a bit of a problem when envisioning the new gnomes and hin in the realms. |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 22:24:34
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| And remember... The Dwarves tend to live in areas that just don't really interact with the surface world as much. Namely, underground. Which is the same reason why the Avariels and Aquatic Elves have little influence on the surface world of Faerun as we know it. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 00:10:24
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| As far as "air time" goes (in our world, not the actual Realms), I'd have to agree that dwarves, gnomes, and halflings get the short end of the stick. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 00:11:43
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
And remember... The Dwarves tend to live in areas that just don't really interact with the surface world as much. Namely, underground.
So do the drow, yet look at all the focus on them as far as marketing goes. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 00:11:56
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| That, I do agree with. :) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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FridayThe13th
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 01:39:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
And remember... The Dwarves tend to live in areas that just don't really interact with the surface world as much. Namely, underground.
So do the drow, yet look at all the focus on them as far as marketing goes.
That is just because of one certain overemotional drow I just can't seem to name right now...
As for racial focus, I think pretty much all the races are somewhat involved in its hstory, the human focus is nothing new, they do that in nearly all books.
The only race I would like to see more of are the halflings. I would love to see them take a kender-like role in FR, it will certainly make things more interesting.
The gnomes... I would prefer to stay isolated. We don't need no Tinkers in the Realms.
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"The Lady of Pain? You mean Loviatar runs this place?"
-- Torilian Prime
"You guys should seriously rename yourselves The Horny Society, you popularity would soar."
-- A miscillaneous Kender to a member of the Horned Society
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36784 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 01:50:51
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quote:
Originally posted by FridayThe13th
The gnomes... I would prefer to stay isolated. We don't need no Tinkers in the Realms.
Though Faerûnian gnomes do have a tendency towards mechanical aptitude, they are not the tinker gnomes of Krynn. To think of them as such is to do them a disservice. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 01:52:29
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quote:
Originally posted by FridayThe13th
That is just because of one certain overemotional drow I just can't seem to name right now...
That may be WHY the drow are so popular, but what really matters to me is that they are popular (and that we see so much drow on a regular basis).
quote:
The gnomes... I would prefer to stay isolated. We don't need no Tinkers in the Realms.
Gnomes need not be tinkers. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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FridayThe13th
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 01:55:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by FridayThe13th
That is just because of one certain overemotional drow I just can't seem to name right now...
That may be WHY the drow are so popular, but what really matters to me is that they are popular (and that we see so much drow on a regular basis).
quote:
The gnomes... I would prefer to stay isolated. We don't need no Tinkers in the Realms.
Gnomes need not be tinkers.
Yeah, you could always go with the Greyhawk bard gnome, but the idea of a gnomish bard just seems, weird, to me. Maybe its just because I have read too much DL and seen to much tinker gnomes to even consiter gnomes as anything else. |
"The Lady of Pain? You mean Loviatar runs this place?"
-- Torilian Prime
"You guys should seriously rename yourselves The Horny Society, you popularity would soar."
-- A miscillaneous Kender to a member of the Horned Society
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 02:13:13
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| I like the Svirfneblin a lot, myself. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 02:18:24
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quote:
Originally posted by FridayThe13th
Yeah, you could always go with the Greyhawk bard gnome, but the idea of a gnomish bard just seems, weird, to me. Maybe its just because I have read too much DL and seen to much tinker gnomes to even consiter gnomes as anything else.
Uhh, gnomes need not be bards, either...
Try to use your imagination a little. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Aes Tryl
Learned Scribe
181 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 02:54:36
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| Yeah but the point is despite the fact that dwarves are suppossed to be almost up there with the elves in terms of empire building, they seriously get the very very short end of the stick, we don't really know that much about the fallen dwarven empire of Delzoun which was only what 900-1200 years ago. . . but everyone seems to be an expert on the Crown Wars which happenned around 10 millenia ago. . . |
Edited by - Aes Tryl on 10 Aug 2006 02:55:33 |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 03:15:54
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Well, I personally haven't read Dwarves Deep, so, there ya' go. :)
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Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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kaeso
Acolyte
USA
36 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 03:51:34
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| But even though the gnomes and halflings are not big empire builders (which I'm not quite sure I like flavor-wise), why are there not more gnomish and halfling heroes? And what about the dwarves? You need not be born in a large empire to have an affect on the world around you. When people pick their races, they often base their D&D characters off their favorite novel characters. That's why there's so many drow PC's out there. I say the writers at least give gnomes, halflings and dwarves a chance to shine in the novels! END THE DISCRIMINATION! VIVA LA REVOLUTION! |
Great literature is escapist, but it changes you, and you come back to your world with new eyes. D&D is the first game that's ever done that for me.
-Sumana Harihareswara |
Edited by - kaeso on 10 Aug 2006 03:52:38 |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 04:04:57
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Uh. LotR sort of gave halflings and dwarves a chance, at least, to be 'cool,' if people wanted to base their characters off of novel characters. Obviously the majority of people (as far as we can tell from nebulous sales reports) prefer humans and elves.
I really don't like halflings at all, personally. Gnomes, cool, Dwarves, okay... Halflings, bleh. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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kaeso
Acolyte
USA
36 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 04:28:08
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| True, but that is only the LotR. There is more than the LotR out there, and overall the fiction focuses on humans and elves. Besides, LotR had grumpy dwarves, and no one likes to play someone who is grumpy. Horrible stereotype. Also, what about the gnomes? They have been left behind. Also also, halflings are cool |
Great literature is escapist, but it changes you, and you come back to your world with new eyes. D&D is the first game that's ever done that for me.
-Sumana Harihareswara |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 04:45:23
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| What we consider 'grumpy' may not be considered such among the Dwarves. I don't understand the point in wanting to be a member of a race only to specifically oppose their general personality/culture. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Torkael
Acolyte
39 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 05:38:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by FridayThe13th
Yeah, you could always go with the Greyhawk bard gnome, but the idea of a gnomish bard just seems, weird, to me. Maybe its just because I have read too much DL and seen to much tinker gnomes to even consiter gnomes as anything else.
Uhh, gnomes need not be bards, either...
Try to use your imagination a little.
Gnomish barbarian tribes? Or liches maybe? |
"No, I will not create a song dedicated to dancing dwarves. Especially dwarves worshipping Eilistraee." - Tenasa the bard |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 06:55:58
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That's some imagination you have there. ;)
A gnomish lich? That's a cool idea. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 09:04:03
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| I would want an eventual novel hero of the short races to go in exact the opposite direction. I want to see a typical gnome, hafling or Faerunian dwarf. Gnomes and hin have so little coverage that showing an exception would create a new standard (Drizzt any one?) instead of giving us a clearer picture of culture and thinking among these races. The dwarves has been the circus characters of the realms to long, and a more culturally typical dwarf could perhaps correct this a little bit. |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 09:05:29
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I agree with that, Jorkens.
Even the more proliferate races are coming under the same aegis of ambigious cultural delineation (the majority of 3E Elf novels seem to focus on abnormal Elves rather than 'normal' ones).
I have spoken with Rino about this a few times. ;) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Torkael
Acolyte
39 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 11:14:20
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
That's some imagination you have there. ;)
A gnomish lich? That's a cool idea.
Thanks. You should see our tabletop NPCs
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
(the majority of 3E Elf novels seem to focus on abnormal Elves rather than 'normal' ones).
Majority? I think it's safe to use 'all' |
"No, I will not create a song dedicated to dancing dwarves. Especially dwarves worshipping Eilistraee." - Tenasa the bard |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 11:46:29
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quote:
Majority? I think it's safe to use 'all'
Most wise of you. ;) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 12:39:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
The dwarves has been the circus characters of the realms to long, and a more culturally typical dwarf could perhaps correct this a little bit.
As an Englishman, it doesn't help that most dwarves seem to speak as though they come from Yorkshire. "Ken tha Genesis in t'Yorkshire tork? It be reet grand."
I do think the Realms needs a decent dwarven hero. One for who family and kin is important. With the Thunder Blessing you could make the hero a twin, why not a male and female?
I'll even offer to write it if there's demand. 
Or
I'll rite th'bugger me sen if yer like. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
Edited by - Kiaransalyn on 10 Aug 2006 13:05:41 |
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Conlon
Learned Scribe
Canada
132 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 13:47:25
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Ha! Funny link!
I would agree that the dwarves, halflings and gnomes have not been given their due in Realms literature. However, in terms of gaming, I still have players wanting to play archetypal racial characters like dwarven priests and halfling rogues, but as well as some less conventional ones (e.g halfling monk).
I read most FR novels that come out, including RAS' stuff. I must say that although his stories are not too bad, I don't really like the way he portrays many members of the dwarven race. To me, they just seem a little cartoony. However, he did a good job with that gnome, who's name I can't recall just now...
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My hopes are ashes, my dreams are dust. All my intentions mean nothing unless they are followed by action. |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 14:09:39
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ok, I can't quote it directly (yet) but in Dwarves Deep it says the ancient dwarves had rune magic that equaled elven high magic in strength and power...and if you took the continental map of Faerun and included the Hordelands and Kara-Tur you would see in the last 10,000 years that the dwarves controlled over 3/4 of the Upper Underdark with some surface holdings...their ruins are everywhere
And the dwarves with the "funny" names are usually otherwise quintessential dwarven warriors...like Dagnabbit...and I mark up those names not as “goofy” but as “ironic”...a lot of the old western outlaws had silly names but were really criminals and murderers
I always thought the 2nd Ed. Complete Book of Halflings and Gnomes did an excellent job on describing both races, even explaining rationally the “wanderer” hobbit and the Realm’s “tinker” gnomes
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Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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the Movers and Shakers of Faerun... all the same?
