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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 01:41:41
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Faraer is saying that the reviews of professional literary critics (not Amazon.com reviewers) don't give much more "glowing praise" to RAS than to Ed Greenwood.
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 09 Aug 2006 01:43:03 |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 01:43:51
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Bob outsells all the other Realms authors, of course. But Amazon 'reviews' aren't a sign of either quality (all sorts of rubbish has 5-star averages) or popularity (lots of high-selling titles are rated fairly low).
What I was trying to get at is, what was your point about people using each other's characters? |
Edited by - Faraer on 09 Aug 2006 01:44:20 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 01:44:33
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quote:
Originally posted by wwwwwww
Look, I’m not trying to say that one is awesome, and one sucks. To each his own, right. I’m merely stating facts based on third party reviews. Take them for whatever they’re worth.
What "facts"? All you did was tell us to go to Amazon.com, which doesn't prove anything. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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wwwwwww
Learned Scribe
116 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 02:09:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Bob outsells all the other Realms authors, of course. But Amazon 'reviews' aren't a sign of either quality (all sorts of rubbish has 5-star averages) or popularity (lots of high-selling titles are rated fairly low).
Right. So the obvious disparity between the two means nothing at all. 
Some amazon reviews are horrid. Others are extremely well written, if you actually read them.
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
What I was trying to get at is, what was your point about people using each other's characters?
Huh? I guess you'll have to bring me back up to speed. State your point, and I'll try to counterpoint. 
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
What "facts"? All you did was tell us to go to Amazon.com, which doesn't prove anything.
The "fact" that if you "consider" amazon reviews, RAS is a mile ahead of Greenwood. Am I talking to a wall here?
I never said one was better than the other. I will say this: RAS is far more widely accepted from a literary standpoint (novels) than Greenwood, at this point. How could you possibly dispute that?
And for the record, I NEVER SAID GREENWOOD STINKS! There. That was for those of you that bristle at the mere mention of someone being more successful or more widely liked than Greenwood. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 02:15:04
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| wwwwwww, I'm referring to your post near the beginning of the first page, where you make the comment I replied to, which was in the context of people writing characters created by other people. |
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wwwwwww
Learned Scribe
116 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 02:20:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
wwwwwww, I'm referring to your post near the beginning of the first page, where you make the comment I replied to, which was in the context of people writing characters created by other people.
Simply put, RAS is successful enough that nobody can touch his characters without his permission. I imagine it's the same with Greenwood. Shores of Dusk was without RAS's permission, and the whole premise behind it was quite deplorable.
No blame can go to Mark Anthony, however, as he was merely "following orders" so to speak from TSR. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 02:29:19
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| Ah. Well, seems to me the gentlemen's agreement is held to with pretty much everyone's main characters these days. Commissioning Shores of Dusk was the exception. TSR and Wizards have even respected the Knights of Myth Drannor's (who until today weren't even major novel protagonists) status as PCs by leaving vague their doings after the time of Ed's campaign. |
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wwwwwww
Learned Scribe
116 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 02:35:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Ah. Well, seems to me the gentlemen's agreement is held to with pretty much everyone's main characters these days. Commissioning Shores of Dusk was the exception. TSR and Wizards have even respected the Knights of Myth Drannor's (who until today weren't even major novel protagonists) status as PCs by leaving vague their doings after the time of Ed's campaign.
You're right.
The only difference is that the 3rd party use of other characters wouldn't have near the impact on "general" fans that the 3rd party use of RAS's characters would, simply because his are much more popular and widely-known. I think that for everyone involved (including Mark Anthony), it's a good thing Shores... never saw the light of day. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 02:53:37
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It would have more impact on the many Bob Salvatore fans. It wouldn't have more impact on general Realms fans except in so far as they're also Bob Salvatore fans.
I agree that Shores of Dusk was a bad idea, like Conan pastiches. |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 03:05:37
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| I'm still amazed that the reviews of Amazon.com shoppers - no matter how well-written - are being used to try to gauge the worth of professional authors. *blink* |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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FridayThe13th
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 03:10:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Faraer is saying that the reviews of professional literary critics (not Amazon.com reviewers) don't give much more "glowing praise" to RAS than to Ed Greenwood.
Uh, I don't think most "professional critics" even take FR seriously at all. A lot of them think that FR is all crap only for D&D fans.
And yes, I am tired of Drizzt. I want more books on Entreti and Jarlaxle. They are interesting and at least are round characters.
Oh, and I just started Elminster, Making of a Mage, the style is better than Drizzt, but the plot isn't.
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"The Lady of Pain? You mean Loviatar runs this place?"
-- Torilian Prime
"You guys should seriously rename yourselves The Horny Society, you popularity would soar."
-- A miscillaneous Kender to a member of the Horned Society
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wwwwwww
Learned Scribe
116 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 03:13:14
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
I'm still amazed that the reviews of Amazon.com shoppers - no matter how well-written - are being used to try to gauge the worth of professional authors. *blink*
Why don't you go back and read the posts again. See it? See it yet?
Not once did I mention and author's "worth."
Does that clear things up for you? 
(one sarcastic post deserves another)
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Edited by - wwwwwww on 09 Aug 2006 03:15:26 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 03:44:23
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quote:
Originally posted by FridayThe13th
Uh, I don't think most "professional critics" even take FR seriously at all. A lot of them think that FR is all crap only for D&D fans.
Any paid book reviewer is a "professional critic". And FR books HAVE been reviewed before. So there. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 09 Aug 2006 03:45:35 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 04:05:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Genis
any of you read the war of the spider queen series? ive been thinking of starting that....and the one with daughter of the drow...i heard good things about that from a few people....any recommendations? to those books i stated or any other books you think i should start...i just finished all the drizzt books and am looking for a something new?
Daughter of the Drow is a worthy read; anything by Elaine Cunningham is excellent.
The War of the Spider Queen? Well, I've heard much raving about how great the books are. Myself, I'm having a hard time staying interested enough to keep reading them. I find them to be an underwhelming experience. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 04:07:53
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quote:
Originally posted by wwwwwww
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Bob's sales give him lots of leverage, but he and Wizards both know that the Drizzt books (and maybe the Jarlaxle/Artemis books) sell better than his non-Realms work or the Cleric Quintet. The big sales trigger is Salvatore + drow, hence the War of the Spider Queen 'R.A. Salvatore presents' series.
Absolutely. But, as I stated earlier, if RAS is truly tired of writing Drizzt tomes, there’s nothing to stop him from branching out. It’s his choice, not WotC.
Sure there is: the desire for a paycheck. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 04:09:02
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| This thread is also growing a little too heated. Let's all take a few minutes to calm down, shall we? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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wwwwwww
Learned Scribe
116 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 04:56:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Sure there is: the desire for a paycheck.
Oh, I think he'd still get a paycheck if he wrote about something else. Maybe no quite as big, but it'd still be a paycheck. |
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FridayThe13th
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 05:04:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by FridayThe13th
Uh, I don't think most "professional critics" even take FR seriously at all. A lot of them think that FR is all crap only for D&D fans.
Any paid book reviewer is a "professional critic". And FR books HAVE been reviewed before. So there.
Tcha, but paid book reviewers aren't always pros at what they are doing. Many are just amateurs trying to make a few quick bucks.
Anyway, I'm not saying I don't like Greenwood's books(I woudn't be here if I didn't), I am saying that in the book criteria world, GENERALLY RPG novels aren't taken very seriously by professional critics. |
"The Lady of Pain? You mean Loviatar runs this place?"
-- Torilian Prime
"You guys should seriously rename yourselves The Horny Society, you popularity would soar."
-- A miscillaneous Kender to a member of the Horned Society
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 05:15:17
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quote:
Why don't you go back and read the posts again. See it? See it yet?
Not once did I mention and author's "worth."
Does that clear things up for you?
(one sarcastic post deserves another)
A) Where do you see sarcasm in my post?
B) I did read all of your posts. I was paraphrasing. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Aes Tryl
Learned Scribe
181 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 06:29:56
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| I tend to agree with Friday, because being a student of Literature, i have asked the opinions of my lecturers before(who are all profesional enough to do a book review), and the sad truth is that if any novel is even remotely associated with a franchise or such, it tends to be treated with a certain amount of disdain by the Lit society, which is quite sadly fairly snobbish( on a whole anyways).Still i wouldn't trust many of the fanboy reviews on Amazon as it only reflects the writer's popularity not his quality of writing. By the way Dan, while these reviews don't tell us much about the writer's quality it does tell us how much a writer is worth commercially. Of course we would have to exclude Mr.Greenwood, as without him,there would not even be the realms |
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FridayThe13th
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 06:32:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Aes Tryl
I tend to agree with Friday, because being a student of Literature, i have asked the opinions of my lecturers before(who are all profesional enough to do a book review), and the sad truth is that if any novel is even remotely associated with a franchise or such, it tends to be treated with a certain amount of disdain by the Lit society, which is quite sadly fairly snobbish( on a whole anyways).Still i wouldn't trust many of the fanboy reviews on Amazon as it only reflects the writer's popularity not his quality of writing. By the way Dan, while these reviews don't tell us much about the writer's quality it does tell us how much a writer is worth commercially. Of course we would have to exclude Mr.Greenwood, as without him,there would not even be the realms
I am not saying that I agree with those hotheads (I most certainly don't!). I love game fantasy, but that dosen't mean REAL critics do. |
"The Lady of Pain? You mean Loviatar runs this place?"
-- Torilian Prime
"You guys should seriously rename yourselves The Horny Society, you popularity would soar."
-- A miscillaneous Kender to a member of the Horned Society
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Edited by - FridayThe13th on 09 Aug 2006 06:33:18 |
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Genis
Learned Scribe
USA
226 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 06:34:56
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| that was....enlightening guys but completly off the point...thank you wooly rupert for being the only one to answer my question....lol....you silly lil people...and your big words |
Unofficial Random Hiatus Taker. |
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wwwwwww
Learned Scribe
116 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 14:16:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Genis
that was....enlightening guys but completly off the point...thank you wooly rupert for being the only one to answer my question....lol....you silly lil people...and your big words
Sorry, Genis. This thread is yet another example of the ill-feelings toward RAS's success by some people. I find it very strange, considering how much he has helped FR gain a following.
As for the topic at hand . . . yes, you can't go wrong reading anything by Ms. Cunningham. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 15:16:36
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| Ill feeling? Not since page one, anyway. Certainly not on my part. |
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wwwwwww
Learned Scribe
116 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 16:00:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Ill feeling? Not since page one, anyway. Certainly not on my part.
Not you at all, Faraer. I find your posts well thought out and valid. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 17:17:16
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quote:
Originally posted by wwwwwww
Sorry, Genis. This thread is yet another example of the ill-feelings toward RAS's success by some people. I find it very strange, considering how much he has helped FR gain a following.
It's not his success that bothers some folk, it's multiple trilogies dealing with the same character. I don't think anyone dislikes RAS because he's successful; it's because we'd like to see something or someone else.
quote:
Originally posted by wwwwwww
As for the topic at hand . . . yes, you can't go wrong reading anything by Ms. Cunningham.
Elaine ranks among my top 3 fave Realms authors.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 17:22:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by wwwwwww
Sorry, Genis. This thread is yet another example of the ill-feelings toward RAS's success by some people. I find it very strange, considering how much he has helped FR gain a following.
It's not his success that bothers some folk, it's multiple trilogies dealing with the same character. I don't think anyone dislikes RAS because he's successful; it's because we'd like to see something or someone else.
quote:
Originally posted by wwwwwww
As for the topic at hand . . . yes, you can't go wrong reading anything by Ms. Cunningham.
Elaine ranks among my top 3 fave Realms authors.
1. Ed
2. Elaine
3. RAS
Huge fans of all, for different freason for all!
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A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 19:06:03
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quote:
Originally posted by wwwwwww
Sorry, Genis. This thread is yet another example of the ill-feelings toward RAS's success by some people.
Like how I've been making derisive posts about, let's see.. JK Rowling, Terry Pratchett, Neil Gaiman, and George R. R. Martin -- among others -- some of which, I suspect, are far more successful than Salvatore commercially? (JKR certainly is, and so is PTerry.) And lookit, I've been bashing Orson Scott Card and China Mieville all over the place because both of them have won literary awards!
Oh. Wait. Except I don't and am unlikely to (since I find them to be, well, actually good writers). If I have anything against RAS' writing, it's that I find it mediocre, stale, dull, repetitive and horribly overhyped. Not because he's successful. |
Edited by - Winterfox on 09 Aug 2006 19:06:55 |
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Faramicos
Senior Scribe
Denmark
468 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 19:28:20
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| All that is probably true in comparison to many other writers... I think we can all agree that RAS isnt the new Hemmingway or Tolkien. But lets face it, the man has found his niche in life and an audience that is more than ready to read his books. He fills out a void in the great halls of literature for all of us who loves a great fantasy adventure that doesnt have to have some revolutionary ideas to it... And in that genre, i think he is the master. |
"When dragons make war, worlds can only tremble in the shadow of angry wings" |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 19:54:16
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quote:
Originally posted by wwwwwww
Sorry, Genis. This thread is yet another example of the ill-feelings toward RAS's success by some people. I find it very strange, considering how much he has helped FR gain a following.
In my experience any thread like this usually devolves into a "fan-boy vs anti-fan-boy" agrument
just my 2 cents |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Salvatore fans please!
Topic Locked
