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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
 Posted - 30 Dec 2006 : 19:13:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
Hmmm... I think most narrativist systems support "high fantasy" - they are quite "rules-light", so I don't see why you could not use them in FR?
I tried with Burning Wheel*, that was built with a "LoTR" generic setting. However, the character creation system and the magic system are not well suited for FR. The first is too harsh (trying to be "realist") and the last one use a "fatigue"-based system (Ed confirmed that a kind of "vancian" magic system was in FR even before it was officialy done in AD&D).
IMHO, "Ed's style" FR would need a custom-built game, and that would be a one that enforces something Ed said on this boards many times : lore should never be overriden by rules.
* Note that even if BW has a solid narrativist ruleset, the combat system is in fact quite simulationist. |
Edited by - Skeptic on 30 Dec 2006 19:19:32 |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2007 : 14:32:53
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This has nothing to with a possible 4th edition, but I don't understand why people complain about a narrativist gaming system and the lack thereof. You can use the rules, and still run a storytelling game. In all honesty the WoD stuff is storytelling, to the degree that the system is IMO unplayable because there are no clear definitions. A game needs rules, and the clearer defined those rules are the easier it is to judge said game.
If you wanna do more narration, go for it, you do not need a new system for narrativist gaming. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2007 : 15:06:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
This has nothing to with a possible 4th edition, but I don't understand why people complain about a narrativist gaming system and the lack thereof. You can use the rules, and still run a storytelling game. In all honesty the WoD stuff is storytelling, to the degree that the system is IMO unplayable because there are no clear definitions. A game needs rules, and the clearer defined those rules are the easier it is to judge said game.
If you wanna do more narration, go for it, you do not need a new system for narrativist gaming.
Sorry Mace, but I completely disagree with you, if you want to play a role-playing game, you need rules. Of course if you instead want to do some collaborative writing of a story, it's another thing. So if you want an rpg based on a narrativist approach, you need a ruleset to give narrative tools to all the players, defining their roles in the game.
BTW, The WoD storyteller system is a very bad exemple of a narrativist approach.
To keep that thread on a Realmsian topic, in fact to match what Ed says on this boards : First, it would need some metagame rules to encourage players to learn Realms lore and use it in play. Second, I'm not sure how much of a complex simulationist rule-set would be needed to handle all the "mechanical" details of this complex world. |
Edited by - Skeptic on 04 Jan 2007 15:16:19 |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2007 : 15:52:07
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| I think that the rules of Castle Falkenstein are much more in tune with a narrative style of rpg, comparing with the storytelling of the White Wolf. |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2007 : 09:20:37
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I wonder if the SW Saga edition uses up coming 4th edition rules....
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/sw20061214jc100
Theyve chopped and combined a number of skills in SWD20 including several that are present in D&D3.5.... |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2007 : 22:03:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
I wonder if the SW Saga edition uses up coming 4th edition rules....
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/sw20061214jc100
Theyve chopped and combined a number of skills in SWD20 including several that are present in D&D3.5....
It would certainly follow the pattern established with the release of 3.5, which followed the SWRPG Revised Core Rules Book...  |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2007 : 22:14:46
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| Maybe they just release an update...what??? Once can hope, can't he???? |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2007 : 22:34:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
This has nothing to with a possible 4th edition, but I don't understand why people complain about a narrativist gaming system and the lack thereof. You can use the rules, and still run a storytelling game. In all honesty the WoD stuff is storytelling, to the degree that the system is IMO unplayable because there are no clear definitions. A game needs rules, and the clearer defined those rules are the easier it is to judge said game.
If you wanna do more narration, go for it, you do not need a new system for narrativist gaming.
Sorry Mace, but I completely disagree with you, if you want to play a role-playing game, you need rules. Of course if you instead want to do some collaborative writing of a story, it's another thing. So if you want an rpg based on a narrativist approach, you need a ruleset to give narrative tools to all the players, defining their roles in the game.
BTW, The WoD storyteller system is a very bad exemple of a narrativist approach.
To keep that thread on a Realmsian topic, in fact to match what Ed says on this boards : First, it would need some metagame rules to encourage players to learn Realms lore and use it in play. Second, I'm not sure how much of a complex simulationist rule-set would be needed to handle all the "mechanical" details of this complex world.
Not much, I think. While I agree that IMHO the "best" option would be a completely tailored/unique rule-set for running narravitist FR campaigns, it is not obligatory. My gaming group has always leaned more on the narravitist side with D&D rules, trying to have fun and tell good stories. We usually only roll during conflict situation if the stakes are high, if either the DM or any player insists, or the exact level of success is needed for the resolution.
Also, I've read of people running Capes in the Realms, replacing superpowers with feats, spells and magic items 
I have personally considered running Ben Lehman's wonderful Polaris after the fall of Netheril. |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2007 : 22:58:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
Not much, I think. While I agree that IMHO the "best" option would the stakes are high, if either the DM or any player insists, or the exact level of success is needed for the resolution.
be a completely tailored/unique rule-set for running narravitist FR campaigns, it is not obligatory. My gaming group has always leaned more on the narravitist side with D&D rules, trying to have fun and tell good stories. We usually only roll during conflict situation if
Adding narrativist rules/mindset is D&D is "doomed" because of the level vs CR system that is hard-wired into it.
One of the greatest advantage of a good narrativist system is to play a party composed of totaly "unbalanced" (in gamist terms) characters, think of the party in Shadow of the Avatars; you'll never achieve that properly with D&D.
Of course, many groups try to bent D&D in different ways, Ed and his group included, but at one point, you have to admit that it may not be the best game to do what you want and that some better may exist. (I'm still looking for one to handle FR properly!) |
Edited by - Skeptic on 07 Jan 2007 23:04:30 |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2007 : 17:52:00
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| If you wanna go narrativist, dust off the old Saga system and use that. Aside from that there is only one maybe two systems that could handle that: the old d6 Star Wars system, and maybe TORG |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Lady Kazandra
Senior Scribe
Australia
921 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2007 : 01:37:19
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From EN World, more 4E speculation - -
quote:
*
Yes, it's another of those fairly rare 4th Edition news items. This one is a quote from former WotC executive Ryan Dancey on the EN World messageboards:
I am of two minds about "4th Edition".
First, I think that WotC may, at some point, create a product called "4th Edition", but that product will look just like 3rd Edition with a series of clear rules improvements & tweaks; essentially, a 3.5 on steroids. To me, that's a "marketing release".
Second, I think WotC may actually try to make "Dungeons & Dragons" mean "a miniatures game with roleplaying", and I could see them creating a whole new way of presenting D&D in a miniatures-centric way that would be worth calling the line "4th Edition". To me, that's a "new design release".
I think there's a good chance, probably 50/50, that we'll see a 3.75 kind of release in 2007 or 2008. A new set of core books, revised, but basically the same game we already have. I think that product will not be called "4th Edition", nor will it be marketed as 4th Edition. There are powerful forces inside WotC that believe (not without quite a bit of market research and product experience to back them up) that gamers will buy a "revision" to a games' core rules every 3-4 years and that not inducing those purchases is just leaving money on the table.
What I'd like to see is a "4th Edition" which hybridizes MMORPG play and tabletop play, with an RPGA moderation facility, that uses on-line tools to create characters and scenarios, and focuses on bringing the best elements of the tabletop and the digital environments together under the most powerful brand in fantasy adventure gaming. If you ever see a notice that WotC has hired me back to run RPGs, that's the direction I'll be looking to move.
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"Once upon a time the plural of 'wizard' was 'war'." -- The Last Continent, by Terry Pratchett |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2007 : 00:25:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Lady Kazandra
From EN World, more 4E speculation - -
quote:
*
Yes, it's another of those fairly rare 4th Edition news items. This one is a quote from former WotC executive Ryan Dancey on the EN World messageboards:
I am of two minds about "4th Edition".
First, I think that WotC may, at some point, create a product called "4th Edition", but that product will look just like 3rd Edition with a series of clear rules improvements & tweaks; essentially, a 3.5 on steroids. To me, that's a "marketing release".
Second, I think WotC may actually try to make "Dungeons & Dragons" mean "a miniatures game with roleplaying", and I could see them creating a whole new way of presenting D&D in a miniatures-centric way that would be worth calling the line "4th Edition". To me, that's a "new design release".
I think there's a good chance, probably 50/50, that we'll see a 3.75 kind of release in 2007 or 2008. A new set of core books, revised, but basically the same game we already have. I think that product will not be called "4th Edition", nor will it be marketed as 4th Edition. There are powerful forces inside WotC that believe (not without quite a bit of market research and product experience to back them up) that gamers will buy a "revision" to a games' core rules every 3-4 years and that not inducing those purchases is just leaving money on the table.
What I'd like to see is a "4th Edition" which hybridizes MMORPG play and tabletop play, with an RPGA moderation facility, that uses on-line tools to create characters and scenarios, and focuses on bringing the best elements of the tabletop and the digital environments together under the most powerful brand in fantasy adventure gaming. If you ever see a notice that WotC has hired me back to run RPGs, that's the direction I'll be looking to move.
[shudders...] Please, please protect us from the Dancey! Raven's Bluff was just a practice run: he truly really intends to destroy the entire planet of Toril!! someone please Turn Undead before this skeleton gets out of his closet... |
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lokilokust
Seeker
USA
61 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2007 : 18:08:29
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i'm a bit new here, and to this discussion, but i rather hope that wotc takes a note in regards to what games workshop has been doing, of late, with making new rules editions backwards compatible.
it will 1) insure new sales and 2) not alienate current players (as much.) |
yrs. in exile,
-s.j. bagley |
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Reefy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
892 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2007 : 22:46:07
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| Thanks for that, Lady K. I must admit that doesn't sound too great from my point of view. |
Life is either daring adventure or nothing. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2007 : 07:43:46
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More boards and miniatures. It almost sounds like they are planning a tactical war game. Maybe, with luck someone will get the idea of making a role playing system out of it where you use your imagination instead of boards and set pieces. No, that idea is to far fetched, no one would be interested in such a game  |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2007 : 10:27:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Lady Kazandra
From EN World, more 4E speculation - -
quote:
What I'd like to see is a "4th Edition" which hybridizes MMORPG play and tabletop play, with an RPGA moderation facility, that uses on-line tools to create characters and scenarios, and focuses on bringing the best elements of the tabletop and the digital environments together under the most powerful brand in fantasy adventure gaming. If you ever see a notice that WotC has hired me back to run RPGs, that's the direction I'll be looking to move.
Hmm, something that "hybridizes MMORPG play and tabletop play." Isn't that just a laptop with Baldur's Gate installed on it?
I'm involved with a NWN community and one of the big differences between online play and tabletop play is that subtly is lost in the online game unless a DM is possessing the NPC's. For example, if I wanted to use a disguised succubus to charm a PC that's easily done if I DM-possess the NPC. If it's a scripted event, the succubus appears as a hostile threat.
Online play tends to be dominated by combat and suffers from the fact that most NPCs' names appear with a mouse-over. One of my main NPCs in Menzoberranzan is called Laerekh Baenre. He's not been associated with the noble house for many, many years but because the players see the name they act as if he is. The problem is compounded because players rarely react well to generically-named NPCs, such as 'commoner' or 'noble.' Also NPCs need to be named otherwise it becomes very difficult for DMs to find them in the menu. (Of course it could be solved by not having names appear with mouse-over but I've yet to experience a system which employs this. That's not to say they aren't out there.)
Online roleplay is rewarding and possible but requires human minds to run the NPCs. Alternatively, you could have players whose PCs have fairly mundane jobs, most of the time, to give the setting verisimilitude.
MMORPG's can degenerate quickly into kill-fests and largescale warfare. This isn't a problem if that's your sort of thing but I suspect most sages would enjoy a setting where their characters are more versatile.
With tabletop play your wizard PC can develop new spells or struggle to understand a newly discovered scroll. With online roleplay the new spell has to uploaded to the server and eventually that newly discovered scroll has to mean something. Online roleplay is very much black and white. And players rarely roleplay with one another, in my experience.
Combining the two will be a considerable challenge. It may be the way to go since computers and the internet have become both sources of communication and leisure-time but there are big problems to solve if WotC wish to satisfy those of us who like our characters with a little depth. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Varl
Learned Scribe
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2007 : 17:29:55
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| There are ways to create an MMOG without all the problems involved with today's MMOGs, but I'm not going to say what they are because I don't want to see this plan of Dancey's come to fruition. Like oil and water, the two should never be merged into one. |
I'm on a permanent vacation to the soul. -Tash Sultana |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2007 : 12:19:40
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Unless they somehow manage to eliminate the things that make the world repetative (respawns, and general repeatability) I do not see any chance of this ever happening. And if they took the realistic approach the costs to maintain such a persistent and consistent online world would be astronomical. Every encounter, quest and whatnot would have to be unique, the manpower to create new content every time something happens on a server of, say, 3000 players would be incredible.
IMO there is no way to make something like that happen, and make it affordable for a player who is not a millionaire. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2007 : 22:25:20
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I just figured as long as people can extrapolate comments into confirmation of the existance or impending release of 4th edition, I could do the opposite of that, thusly:
James Jacobs at Dragon Magazine has said that he has enough acceptable psionics submisions for the "Class Acts" articles to last him about three years, so he doesn't need any more. You could take this as meaning that that he has enough for the next three years weather he is going to be able to run them or not, or you could take this as meaning he is set for the next three years of publishing.
While the folks at Paizo might not be "in the loop," I have a feeling that with Dragon being the "official Dungeons and Dragons" magazine, they would likely know at least a bit ahead of time if 4th edition were about to "go nova," so to speak.
Just something to ponder. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2007 : 22:35:03
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I just figured as long as people can extrapolate comments into confirmation of the existance or impending release of 4th edition, I could do the opposite of that, thusly:
James Jacobs at Dragon Magazine has said that he has enough acceptable psionics submisions for the "Class Acts" articles to last him about three years, so he doesn't need any more. You could take this as meaning that that he has enough for the next three years weather he is going to be able to run them or not, or you could take this as meaning he is set for the next three years of publishing.
While the folks at Paizo might not be "in the loop," I have a feeling that with Dragon being the "official Dungeons and Dragons" magazine, they would likely know at least a bit ahead of time if 4th edition were about to "go nova," so to speak.
Just something to ponder.
Well,
I doubt that they aren't in the loop because, as was said at Gencon, both WOTC and the Paizo people have wkly meetings to discuss Dragon/Dungeon content. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2007 : 00:00:41
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| You know what's ironic...there are a bunch of RPGs that went through a hell of a lot more editions than AD&D/D&D in far shorter time. GURPS 4th, if I'm not mistaken, Shadowrun 4th... and if you wanna stay up to date with Middle Earth ... that world alone has gone through several incarnations of different RPGs, as has Star Trek... if you take the Star Wars universe you have the original by WEG, with the Rules Compendium as a sorta 1.5 version, WEG's 2nd edition, and 2nd edition revised and expanded, WOTC's soon 3 editions... scary |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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see
Learned Scribe
235 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2007 : 05:59:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
there are a bunch of RPGs that went through a hell of a lot more editions than AD&D/D&D in far shorter time. GURPS 4th, if I'm not mistaken
Well, GURPS went through some early changes, going from 1st to 3rd edition from 1986 to 1988. But then it really settled down; GURPS 3rd was issued a year before AD&D 2nd Edition, and was only replaced by 4th the year after Wizards did D&D 3.5. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2007 : 01:04:55
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ENworld reports that WOTC has 3/3.5e material planned through 2008, so if there is going to be a 4e, it's a few years away.
I'm curious about the Desert of Desolation that the reporter mentioned since the original module was folded into FR. Ah, I guess it's a set of mini's. Well, that answers that.
The thread is:
http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4486 |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 16 Feb 2007 01:20:17 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2007 : 01:10:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
ENworld reports that WOTC has 3/3.5e material planned through 2008, so if there is going to be a 4e, it's a few years away.
But we all know how time flies...*smiles* |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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nbnmare
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
205 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2007 : 09:48:33
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| If WotC do move away from traditional RPGs it wouldn't be that terrible, since the Forgotten Realms license would amost certainly be bought by another company. Who knows, it may even be one who cares more about storytelling and lore than they do about rules and errata. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31726 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2007 : 00:27:48
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Redirected from elsewhere -
quote:
Originally posted by WalkerNinja
[Previously posted elsewhere under the topic Prelude to 4E]
This may or may not be the correct place for this topic. I placed it here since this forum has more to do with mechanics.
As a Star Wars fan, I've been more than a little saddened that its RPG product line has been suffering so badly. The products are great, but no one buys them.
Lo and Behold, WotC Star Wars is entering a new edition entitled SAGA. There are a couple of previews on the Star Wars website that are worth noting.
It seems like several of the D&D 3E mechanics are being revamped or flat done away with which causes me to believe that this is a prologue for 4E.
So far the changes haven't been specific to Star Wars, but have been Specific to the d20 brand. For one, doing away with skill points and racial skill bonuses. Additionally, some skills are being eliminated, and others combined. For instance, Spot Search Listen and Sense Motive are all being rolled into a new skill called Perception that includes Taste, Touch, and Smell. Also, Initiative is becoming a skill.
The way that this has been explained, I am generally supportive of this measure.
What I am not supportive of is increased focus on miniature gaming. Granted, this MAY be a Star Wars specific adaptation because their RPG is underperforming and their Miniatures are over performing, but I tend to believe that this may be foreshadowing of things to come for D&D.
Thoughts?
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2007 : 01:32:20
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| Is SAGA that old system used by Dragonlance for a while? |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31726 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2007 : 02:12:54
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No.
The 'SAGA' reference for the new SWRPG simply reflects that the d20 system used will include information and stats on aspects from the entire Stars Wars Saga. This means information from all six films, rather than just the original trilogy and the first two prequels which was the focus of the Revised Core Rulebook for the previous incarnation of the d20 SWRPG.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 12 Apr 2007 02:14:41 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2007 : 02:27:47
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| Besides, I was under the impression that the Dragginglance SAGA system didn't do so hot... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31726 Posts |
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First 4E serious rumor
Topic Locked
