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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Jul 2006 : 19:57:29
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quote:
Originally posted by kaesoOverall, awesome ideas! Does anyone have answers to these from authentic sources?
I don't have my books all here, so I can't verify anything...I mostly remember that most of the info on the Shadow Weave is in the core book and the Magic of Faerun book
I'm just trying to apply logical deduction to the idea of a Shadow Weave...to me it's the "holes" in the Weave is the biggest clue to its nature...
your shadow isn’t a part of you, you create it...so then logically Shar created the Shadow Weave...but I also remember the part of being the “holes / negative space” in the Weave...and that’s totally different than being a shadow..
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Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2006 : 19:58:25
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
The Shadow Weave was introduced in the very-late 2E novel The Shadowstone, by Rich Baker. It was meant to be a Cerilia novel, but that setting tanked.
was it? cool, that explains a bit... |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2006 : 20:35:08
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quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
And I really don’t think she “created” the Shadow Weave, it makes no sense.
It is explicitly stated that Shar created the Shadow Weave, and that it took centuries for her to do so.
And, as I said, if it was a reflection, then the Shadow Weave would be affected by dead magic areas and wild magic areas. It is explicitly stated that it is not, since it is made from the dark spaces within the Weave.
I'm not trying to quash your creativity or anything, I'm just sticking to what has been written in published Realmslore. |
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kaeso
Acolyte
USA
36 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2006 : 20:46:58
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| I was wondering, are there any known good deities that have portfolios relating to shadow magic or the plane of shadow? It seems that if the shadowplane is truly neutral, then there should be one out there. |
Great literature is escapist, but it changes you, and you come back to your world with new eyes. D&D is the first game that's ever done that for me.
-Sumana Harihareswara |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2006 : 20:47:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It is explicitly stated that Shar created the Shadow Weave, and that it took centuries for her to do so.
And, as I said, if it was a reflection, then the Shadow Weave would be affected by dead magic areas and wild magic areas. It is explicitly stated that it is not, since it is made from the dark spaces within the Weave.
I'm not trying to quash your creativity or anything, I'm just sticking to what has been written in published Realmslore.
I don't think you are...
I'll check out my books tonight to read up but from what my dim memory of the Shadow Weave tells me I remember the published material on the Shadow Weave bing more like in-game dogma (i.e. sage lore, legends) and less game mechanic mechanics...
I just think it wasn't all thought out and hope someone will clarify it in the future..if anything, how much of a power investment does it take to make a whole new Weave, even a lesser one? And why would Ao allow it? "Balancing" Mystra's good tendencies doesn't pan out as Midnight has only been a goddess for less than 30 years and the 1st Mystra was strict lawful neutral (even living in Mechanus, pure LN)
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Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2006 : 21:12:58
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quote:
Originally posted by kaeso
I was wondering, are there any known good deities that have portfolios relating to shadow magic or the plane of shadow? It seems that if the shadowplane is truly neutral, then there should be one out there.
I can't think of any Realms gods that are good alignment and have shadow in their portfolio...I'm sure there are some demi-human gods that have shadow-ish aspects to them, like Eleistrae (sp?)
The only good power with darkness and shadow in their portfolio is the goddess Ratri (sp?), from the Babylon or Sumerian pantheon
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Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2006 : 21:49:36
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Lolth, Shar, and Set all have Darkness; Mask and Eshowdowe have (had) Shadow.
I'm sure there's more.
Erevan has some shady dealings, though. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2006 : 00:50:48
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quote:
Originally posted by kaeso
Oh I know. It's just something that evil characters are much more prone to, and I guess I'm trying to figure out why that is. Not that specifically, but why evil is more likely to choose shadow than good.
This is my personal take on the matter: darkness and shadow are a lot creepier and inspire fear and superstition (we can't see well in low light, and not at all in darkness) if one doesn't live in an age of electricity, like we do now. Hence, that's why these completely neutral and ammoral things have a bad reputation and an association with evil, especially in the fantasy genre.
Then again, as I alluded to before, shadows can't exist without some light. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 20 Jul 2006 00:51:59 |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2006 : 03:19:54
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| And races with darkvision/low-light vision probably wouldn't consider shadows to be creepy at all. I could see Moon Elves being quite comfortable in shadows cast by star and moonlight. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2006 : 03:31:42
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| Agreed. But these books are written by humans, and it's often difficult for people to let go of prejudices that have been passed down for so long. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2006 : 04:20:57
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| Darn them. :) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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kaeso
Acolyte
USA
36 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2006 : 05:55:53
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| So if there was a good deity who involved shadow magic, how likely would he/she be to live on teh shadow plane? I mean, it would make sense if they did, but with the shadow plane being what it is- a plane where "Emotions are as muted as colors -- love and hate, joy and sorrow, mirth and mourning are all less potent, less expressive. Only true needs -- hunger, thirst, exhaustion, and pain -- remain undiminished." I'm not so sure a good deity of shadow would choose to live there. So, where would a good deity of shadow dwell? (Note: I'm not sure what your opinions are on the standard D&D multiverse and the less-standard Faerunian multiverse- lets just assume both are valid ) |
Great literature is escapist, but it changes you, and you come back to your world with new eyes. D&D is the first game that's ever done that for me.
-Sumana Harihareswara |
Edited by - kaeso on 20 Jul 2006 05:57:00 |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2006 : 06:18:17
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Well, the Shadow Plane numbs ALL emotions, good or evil. That could be taken to an evil extreme (such as in the Grey Wastes), but inherently it's not good or evil - so if you are taking that into account, that means it's no more likely for an evil deity to live there than a good one.
I could very well see a NG deity of Shadows, Shade, Mercy, Peace, Solitude, and Silence living there, perhaps from a pantheon arising from inhabitants of a cruel desert.
Look at every possible angle. It's fun. :) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
Edited by - GothicDan on 20 Jul 2006 06:18:50 |
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kaeso
Acolyte
USA
36 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2006 : 06:42:13
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
Well, the Shadow Plane numbs ALL emotions, good or evil. That could be taken to an evil extreme (such as in the Grey Wastes), but inherently it's not good or evil - so if you are taking that into account, that means it's no more likely for an evil deity to live there than a good one.
I could very well see a NG deity of Shadows, Shade, Mercy, Peace, Solitude, and Silence living there, perhaps from a pantheon arising from inhabitants of a cruel desert.
Look at every possible angle. It's fun. :)
I was thinking it would be more likely for an evil diety to be there because pain is one of the few things that isn't nulled down, and I figured that would appeal to an evil deity who has sadistic tendencies.
I reeeeally like your reasons why a good diety would live there. If one did, is it possible that he/she could craft shadow to make a kind of shadow paradise? (I'm kind of thinking of the overall idea of the abilities of the shadowcrafter from the Underdark)
Also, I know there are areas of the shadow plane where negative energy has an effect- would the permanent presence of a good deity cause positive energy to have an effect in that area? |
Great literature is escapist, but it changes you, and you come back to your world with new eyes. D&D is the first game that's ever done that for me.
-Sumana Harihareswara |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2006 : 06:50:52
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Well, technically, pleasure is just the absence of pain - or contentment is. So if you are on the Plane of Shadow and all of your basic needs are met, you're in a sort of completely neutral, peaceful state, which is exactly the kind of realm the above deity I thought up would like. :)
Also, I'd say that, yes, I think it would be possible for said deity to do such a thing. A deity of peace, solitude, mercy, etc. would probably be very handy as to the use of Enchantment and Illusion spells, and also probably Abjuration and Divination.
And in 2E.. The Demiplane of Shadow was a mixture of both Positive and Negative Energy. So I personally would change the Plane of Shadow in 3E to have both, since it isn't the Plane of Darkness (that's more like the Negative Energy Plane), but rather the Plane of SHADOW. Light AND darkness. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2006 : 18:44:23
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quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It is explicitly stated that Shar created the Shadow Weave, and that it took centuries for her to do so.
And, as I said, if it was a reflection, then the Shadow Weave would be affected by dead magic areas and wild magic areas. It is explicitly stated that it is not, since it is made from the dark spaces within the Weave.
I'm not trying to quash your creativity or anything, I'm just sticking to what has been written in published Realmslore.
I don't think you are...
I'll check out my books tonight to read up but from what my dim memory of the Shadow Weave tells me I remember the published material on the Shadow Weave bing more like in-game dogma (i.e. sage lore, legends) and less game mechanic mechanics...
I just think it wasn't all thought out and hope someone will clarify it in the future..if anything, how much of a power investment does it take to make a whole new Weave, even a lesser one? And why would Ao allow it? "Balancing" Mystra's good tendencies doesn't pan out as Midnight has only been a goddess for less than 30 years and the 1st Mystra was strict lawful neutral (even living in Mechanus, pure LN)
As I expected, you are right about the Shadow Weave 
But I still like my version better, there really isn't to much information about the weave except the game mechanics and "Shar for centuries" explanation...I still think that it is a pretty weak description 
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Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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kaeso
Acolyte
USA
36 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2006 : 02:05:25
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I couldn't go read through and/or buy the Tome of Magic today, I live in St. Louis, MO, USA, and we got hit with a huge storm last night that knocked out all the power. As a result, Borders was closed *cry* I'll go tomorrow I guess...
I really want to go through the Tome of Magic so I can get a better idea of the Plane of Shadow and its shadow users. I'll probably have more questions tomorrow. |
Great literature is escapist, but it changes you, and you come back to your world with new eyes. D&D is the first game that's ever done that for me.
-Sumana Harihareswara |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2006 : 03:57:19
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quote:
Originally posted by kaeso
I couldn't go read through and/or buy the Tome of Magic today, I live in St. Louis, MO, USA, and we got hit with a huge storm last night that knocked out all the power. As a result, Borders was closed *cry* I'll go tomorrow I guess...
That storm knocked out power to our St. Louis location, too... Were you affected by it? |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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kaeso
Acolyte
USA
36 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2006 : 04:18:36
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I was at work during the storm, and we have generators so we kept gaining and losing power. I live in the county, where a lot of us still have power. My house has power, but some of my co-workers do not. The city got hit hardest- over half a million people w/out power, living in brick inner-city buildings, and we're being gripped by a heat wave  |
Great literature is escapist, but it changes you, and you come back to your world with new eyes. D&D is the first game that's ever done that for me.
-Sumana Harihareswara |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2006 : 06:11:11
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quote:
Originally posted by kaeso
I was at work during the storm, and we have generators so we kept gaining and losing power. I live in the county, where a lot of us still have power. My house has power, but some of my co-workers do not. The city got hit hardest- over half a million people w/out power, living in brick inner-city buildings, and we're being gripped by a heat wave
After the hurricanes of 2004, I know where you're coming from... But hey, I heard the weather is supposed to cool off tomorrow...
Anyway, enough threadjacking.  |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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kaeso
Acolyte
USA
36 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2006 : 05:57:57
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| So I was reading through the Tome of Magic.. and there's not too much fluff outside what's offered on the WotC preview. However, they do mention some kind of city that's actually lit- they described it as a sanctuary from the shadows. Does anyone know anything about it? Also, there was an item in the Tome... a lamp, that allows shadowy illumination. I just wanted to say, it was really cool! |
Great literature is escapist, but it changes you, and you come back to your world with new eyes. D&D is the first game that's ever done that for me.
-Sumana Harihareswara |
Edited by - kaeso on 22 Jul 2006 06:11:55 |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2006 : 06:14:21
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| In 2E, we did that by casting Darkness, 15' radius, on a rock, and putting it in a hooded lantern. :) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Snowblood
Senior Scribe
Australia
388 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2010 : 13:46:26
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| if anyone bothered to check....Selune created the weave when she tore the stuff of magic from her very substance and hurled it at her sister, Shar. When it passed through it tore the dark weave from Shar and thus true magic was born with the combination of the two halves of magic.....when karsus sundered Mystryl he shattered this bond and Shar took back what she had lost and the Selune (light side of the weave) was reinstated as Mystra, but it was only half of magic...so in effect the two light and shadow weave have always existed....thus to unite them....Ao had to allow Mystra to die,,,,,,, |
Aryvandaar, Ilythiir, Arnothoi, Orva, Sarphil, Anauria/Asram/Hlondath, Uvaeren, Braceldaur, Ilodhar, Lisenaar, Imaskar, Miyeritar, Orishaar, Shantel Othrieir, Keltormir, Eaerlann, Ammarindar, Siluvanede, Sharrven, Illefarn, Ardeep, Rystal Wood, Evereska are all available here for download:http://phasai.deviantart.com/gallery/
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2010 : 00:26:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Snowblood
if anyone bothered to check....Selune created the weave when she tore the stuff of magic from her very substance and hurled it at her sister, Shar. When it passed through it tore the dark weave from Shar and thus true magic was born with the combination of the two halves of magic.....when karsus sundered Mystryl he shattered this bond and Shar took back what she had lost and the Selune (light side of the weave) was reinstated as Mystra, but it was only half of magic...so in effect the two light and shadow weave have always existed....thus to unite them....Ao had to allow Mystra to die,,,,,,,
So if that was all it took, then why didn't it happen earlier? Why didn't Mystra 1.0 reunite the Weave immediately, when she was bringing it back on line? Why didn't her death cause it to reunite? And why, when there were two Weave deities, did only one have to die to fix things?
Karsus didn't sunder Mystryl -- he just took her power. Look at it this way: if I grab the steering wheel while you're driving, I'm not going to do a good job driving the car -- but it's not going to split into two cars. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 26 May 2010 00:32:08 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2010 : 00:57:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Snowblood
if anyone bothered to check....Selune created the weave when she tore the stuff of magic from her very substance and hurled it at her sister, Shar. When it passed through it tore the dark weave from Shar and thus true magic was born with the combination of the two halves of magic.....when karsus sundered Mystryl he shattered this bond and Shar took back what she had lost and the Selune (light side of the weave) was reinstated as Mystra, but it was only half of magic...so in effect the two light and shadow weave have always existed....thus to unite them....Ao had to allow Mystra to die,,,,,,,
It's an interesting theory, but it doesn't really jive with established Realmslore. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2010 : 10:49:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
And I really don’t think she “created” the Shadow Weave, it makes no sense.
It is explicitly stated that Shar created the Shadow Weave, and that it took centuries for her to do so.
And, as I said, if it was a reflection, then the Shadow Weave would be affected by dead magic areas and wild magic areas. It is explicitly stated that it is not, since it is made from the dark spaces within the Weave.
I'm not trying to quash your creativity or anything, I'm just sticking to what has been written in published Realmslore.
I have to agree that shadow magic is unaffected by wild magic areas. If you review THE SUMMMONING, Melegaunt's shadow spells are NOT affected at all in the Dire Woods (a place of wild magic due to Karsus's lingering influence), compared to Elminster's that totally go awry.
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Every beginning has an end. |
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Snowblood
Senior Scribe
Australia
388 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2010 : 14:08:45
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| well its just a theory....and it does explain much.....from a purely theological perspective... |
Aryvandaar, Ilythiir, Arnothoi, Orva, Sarphil, Anauria/Asram/Hlondath, Uvaeren, Braceldaur, Ilodhar, Lisenaar, Imaskar, Miyeritar, Orishaar, Shantel Othrieir, Keltormir, Eaerlann, Ammarindar, Siluvanede, Sharrven, Illefarn, Ardeep, Rystal Wood, Evereska are all available here for download:http://phasai.deviantart.com/gallery/
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Sill Alias
Senior Scribe
Kazakhstan
588 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2010 : 03:34:57
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| Still, theory of separate creation from Weave is broken by 4th edition. I think it is just Shar's thinking - 'My SW is independent from W, so why not destroy the opponent goddess without worrying about consequences?', which proved completely wrong. |
You can hear many tales from many mouths. The most difficult is to know which of them are not lies. - Sill Alias
"May your harp be unstrung, your dreams die and all your songs be unsung." - curse of the harper, The Code of the Harpers 2 ed.
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2010 : 23:16:37
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I think the theory deserves some attention though.
If a proto Shadow Weave was present at the birth of Mystryl, it might have resided inside the weavegoddess for aeons. Earlier shadow magic users invoking Mystryl might have been shaping the weave to gradually form a shadow. Getting this shadow falling under her power would be the anchor with which Shar could slowly siphon power form the goddes of magic.
Eventually Shar managed to create tha Shadow Weave in a manner similar to how some illusionists weave spells that become quasi-real by infusing shadowstuff into the weave over the span of several millenia. This gradual magical anti-radiation from her godly domain eventually coalesced into her controllable magic source.
Its mentioned int the Countdown to the Realms articles that after Mystra's destruction Shar somehow lost control of the Shadow Weave. This might have been caused by Ao, but I think thats unlikely. Perhaps it was a dormant part of a Mystryl still imprinted into the shadow weaves structure. One could speculate that this Shadow Weave spiralled out of control of Shar and fused with Torils Crystal Sphere to form the current active arcane powersource. It has remained independant of any dieties influence because it whent out of typical reach of the astral domains. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2010 : 03:57:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Eventually Shar managed to create tha Shadow Weave in a manner similar to how some illusionists weave spells that become quasi-real by infusing shadowstuff into the weave over the span of several millenia. This gradual magical anti-radiation from her godly domain eventually coalesced into her controllable magic source.
Interesting theory...But it would not have been called Shadow Weave had it not been literally the shadow of the Weave itself. If Shar created the SW that way, might as well call it Shar's Weave. 
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Shadow Users... good or evil?
