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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Jul 2006 : 20:15:41
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| Speaking of continuity... Katie-Brie should be approaching her 40th birthday now...The Crystal Shard started in 1351 by which time Kate was around 16 or so. The Thousand Orcs takes place in 1371...if you do the math she is at least 36 years old... now I wonder did she and Wulfgar ever bonk or just kill orcs during their marriage? |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 02:48:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Gellion
Winterfox: I think the reason is because that most Drizzt fans, or at leasta lot of them dont read any other FR novels other than the Drizzt ones. many are probably not gamers either. So that is why they do not care about FR canon and they just like what makes a good story. You cant blame them for that.
I don't specifically play pnp games (don't have anyone to game with), but I still love the setting--which began as a story setting, not a game setting--and so I care about the lore.
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 02:50:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Fair enough...if they were good stories.
The one I liked most was the one with Wulfgar as an alcoholic.
Me too...RAS actually did something (*gasp*!) different and unpleasant with one of his characters! However, my enthusiasm about this plot development petered out, because Wulfgar was brought back full circle to the way he was.
After over 15 books, these characters don't change much, and when they do it is at a glacial pace. I'm not filled with hate about it, just disappointment. I just feel like RAS sets up some great plot hooks, then later pulls the rug out from under them (that is, doesn't develop them as much as he could). This was especially apparent with Ellery's story in Promise of the Witch-King. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 18 Jul 2006 02:52:45 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 02:54:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Gellion
That is fine, I know that sometimes it can get on others nerves when people pretend to know stuff they dont. I admit, I do not know as much about FR as many people here because I lack the money to buy a lot of the supplements that come out.
You don't have to buy tons of supplements to learn about the Realms, all you have to do is keep your ears open, research, and hang out on websites (like this) where people talk about the Realms. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 03:56:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
Bruenor needs to hit Drizzt over the head with the blunt side of his axe so that Alustriel can make a man out of the unconscious drow, that's my take on Drizzt's entries.
I'm pretty sure raping someone doesn't quite equate to "making a man" out of him. And in Drizzt's case, he'll probably react with even more angst. Ew.
Was more of a joke then anything else. But he needs to get laid bad, he's worse then a 12 year old picking on his first crush.
quote:
Originally posted by jcw928
There's a surprising amount of dislike for RAS's "Drizzt and company" novels on these boards really, as you may have noticed. I think a lot of it stems from the fact that his books are so popular and tend to overshadow other Forgotten Realms novels that are (arguably) better written.
My dislike is that they tend to be the same drama in different adventures. I read them all and Crystal Shard remains one of my favorites, it's just there are a lot of glaring problems with the Drizzt novels. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 04:25:03
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quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
Was more of a joke then anything else. But he needs to get laid bad, he's worse then a 12 year old picking on his first crush.
Spoiler for The Two Swords (highlight to read):It's possible Drizzt had sex with Cattie-brie by the end of this book, although the wording wasn't explicit, and given how "prudish" the Drizzt books are, it's hard for me to say if it even was sex.
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Arkhaedun
Senior Scribe
869 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 06:29:50
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The critique of RAS' books is fine, and this is an interesting discussion, but lets make sure we aren't being overly harsh in over generalizing those that enjoy his works. We can't really make blanket statements about everyone that likes the books, only about the ones that we may have had discussions with, and I'd hate to scare off any RAS fans that might enjoy the keep or even participating in this discussion by painting them with too broad a brush and running them off before they get the chance to contribute.
That having been said . . . carry on |
Edited by - Arkhaedun on 18 Jul 2006 06:30:09 |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 08:25:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Spoiler for The Two Swords (highlight to read):It's possible Drizzt had sex with Cattie-brie by the end of this book, although the wording wasn't explicit, and given how "prudish" the Drizzt books are, it's hard for me to say if it even was sex.
It makes me boggle to no end how... coy that is. I mean, why? It's not like implied sex in other Realms book hasn't been unambiguous. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 18:20:56
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My thought would be that, given some of the comments that Ryld had made in the WOTSQ books, that at some time, especially when he was in the acadamy, Drizzt would have had to perform . . . duties for the priestesses. I don't want to get too graphic here, but its what I would assume from context.
To be fair, RAS does imply what happened with the graduation ceremony in the Dark Elf trilogy. It just seems that he either insulated Drizzt from some of the more "carnal" aspect of drow life, or Drizzt himself doesn't think about them.
I wouldn't assume that Drizzt didn't run across some of these things, as RAS has "amended" some characters memories when he later wanted things to get more horrific for them. For example (spoilers), Wulfgar's torture in the Abyss struck me as kind of tame at first, then in Spine of the World we find out that the succubus' were actually mating with him as Catti-brie, having his children, then eating them in front of him . . . and then I thought . . . that's the kind of torture I would have thought about in the abyss. |
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Ignorance Personified
Seeker
USA
78 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2006 : 21:43:27
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I wouldn't mind RAS fans so much if they didn't blatantly toss around their ignorance in a proud fashion; but they don't give a damn when you try to actually enlighten them about aspects of FR lore. RAS did not write an FR bible - if anyone has, it's Ed.
What is wrong with tossing around one's ignorance in a proud fashion?
Many RAS fans do have at least a basic knowledge of FR lore and don't mind if you attempt to enlighten them about aspects of lore Mr. Salvatore ignored or did not address properly within his novels/shortstories. In contrast, when someone addresses you with an offensive statement or accuses you of being inherently idiotic merely because you enjoy reading one author over another[something that seems to be rather common in these forums]--that tends to make you "not give a damn" when said enlightment is offered.
In addition, I have a question for anyone who wishes to respond. If RAS does contradict (I suppose this is an acceptable term) standing Realmslore, then why is it a huge problem?
quote:
Yes, exactly. Wearing ignorance as a badge of honor isn't, in general, endearing.
Yes, I am fairly certain that Socrates would second Winterfox's observation.
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Carthago delenda est. |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2006 : 21:52:06
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What is wrong with tossing around one's ignorance in a proud fashion?
I don't believe in morals.
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In contrast, when someone addresses you with an offensive statement or accuses you of being inherently idiotic merely because you enjoy reading one author over another[something that seems to be rather common in these forums]--that tends to make you "not give a damn" when said enlightment is offered.
God forebid someone have an offensive opinion?
quote:
In addition, I have a question for anyone who wishes to respond. If RAS does contradict (I suppose this is an acceptable term) standing Realmslore, then why is it a huge problem?
Because he writes in a shared world, and it's part of his responsibility to adhere to the works and lore presented by other authors and designers. It's like joining a club - you have to follow the rules if you willingly join a club and sign on to its traditions. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
Edited by - GothicDan on 19 Jul 2006 21:53:18 |
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Ignorance Personified
Seeker
USA
78 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2006 : 22:19:47
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quote:
I don't believe in morals.
As your third response suggests, tossing around one's ignorance does not have to be concerned with morality for it to be wrong--i.e. it could not be in accordance with the traditions of the online community.
Please answer the question and stop dancing around the issue.
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God forebid someone have an offensive opinion?
I have no problem with a person possessing an offensive opinion, but one should be courteous when voicing their view on any posistion--with a few exceptions ("moral" issues--I do believe in morals).
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Because he writes in a shared world, and it's part of his responsibility to adhere to the works and lore presented by other authors and designers. It's like joining a club - you have to follow the rules if you willingly join a club and sign on to its traditions.
Remember, RAS joined the "club" in the eighties and did adhere (to the best of my knowledge) to FR Lore during his early works. In contrast, after major changes to the setting and dnd in general he decided it would be best to only be concerned with his stories--after all the rest is out of his control and changes quite frequently.
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Carthago delenda est. |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2006 : 22:48:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Ignorance Personified
Yes, I am fairly certain that Socrates would second Winterfox's observation.
Oooh, my name-dropping is pastede on yay!
Context, my dear, context.
quote:
In addition, I have a question for anyone who wishes to respond. If RAS does contradict (I suppose this is an acceptable term) standing Realmslore, then why is it a huge problem?
Why isn't it?
I'm afraid I can't envisage any scenario where blatantly contradicting established canon out of ignorance or simple carelessness should be encouraged or considered good form. While I can hardly ask an author to be clairvoyant (and thus anticipate what'll change in the future), I don't think asking said author to research existing material is too much. (Some'd say it is too much. But that kind of attitude is usually expressed when the author in question is an unpaid amateur writing fanfiction.) |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2006 : 23:04:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Ignorance Personified
I have no problem with a person possessing an offensive opinion, but one should be courteous when voicing their view on any posistion--with a few exceptions ("moral" issues--I do believe in morals).
Care to enlighten us what morals are?
btw I like your name |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2006 : 23:19:15
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quote:
As your third response suggests, tossing around one's ignorance does not have to be concerned with morality for it to be wrong--i.e. it could not be in accordance with the traditions of the online community.
Please answer the question and stop dancing around the issue.
I never said anything about it being wrong - just that I didn't like it.
quote:
I have no problem with a person possessing an offensive opinion, but one should be courteous when voicing their view on any posistion--with a few exceptions ("moral" issues--I do believe in morals).
And someone showing exasperation about a topic is being discourteous? I don't think so. But this is why morals are silly - because each person has a different idea of what is right and wrong. I think that negative criticism should be far more acceptable in general than it apparently is, for example.
quote:
Remember, RAS joined the "club" in the eighties and did adhere (to the best of my knowledge) to FR Lore during his early works. In contrast, after major changes to the setting and dnd in general he decided it would be best to only be concerned with his stories--after all the rest is out of his control and changes quite frequently.
And?
There are other FR authors who manage to do it; he should get no special exception. (NO author should be, in my opinion.) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2006 : 23:43:13
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I occasionally post to the boards at rasalvatore.com, sometimes to contribute general Realmslore. While some are interested, I know others aren't, but I see why: they like the feeling of Bob's characters and writing and don't get that from others' work set in the Realms. I don't get aggressive 'Who cares?' responses.
I think it's more helpful discussing Bob's supposed infidelity to Realmslore in specifics than generalities. |
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Ignorance Personified
Seeker
USA
78 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2006 : 23:46:08
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quote:
Care to enlighten us what morals are?
No I cannot, but I can make a couple of suggestions.
Read The Grounding for the Metaphyics of Morals--specfically book II--it is about 10 pages in English translation from the German (as you are from Germany--reading it in the original language is almost certainly better than in traslation)--I would cite the author's name, but out of courtesy for other members of the forum I will not partake in "name-dropping."
or
Try the Nicomachean Ethics--which identifies the moral (i.e. virtuous) life as the only way to obtain happiness, which the author identifies as a state of being--specifically the first and tenth books.
It is nice to know that someone likes my name.
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Oooh, my name-dropping is pastede on yay!
Context, my dear, context.
The philosopher in question was excuted from claiming to be ignorant because constantly admitting his ignorance pissed off many prominent political figures (see the Republic Book I[examples of Soc. proclaming ignorance], the Apology [trial and pissed off Athenians], and the Phaedo (an account of the execution)-- So, dearest, why isn't that in context?
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While I can hardly ask an author to be clairvoyant (and thus anticipate what'll change in the future), I don't think asking said author to research existing material is too much.
I see your point, but reading through hundreds of novels and dozens of sourcebooks does seem to be asking a great deal from an author--after all researching that much text generally takes professional historians years (even those studying the twentieth century) and the popular ones are aided by numerous of graduate students.
That being said: I must concede that Mr. Salvatore evidently did not take advantage of reading the material as it was published and other authors seem to have achieved a working knowledge of the subject material.
In addition: Isn't the editor (who I assume has knowledge of Realmslore) also partially responsible for this? |
Carthago delenda est. |
Edited by - Ignorance Personified on 19 Jul 2006 23:47:13 |
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Arkhaedun
Senior Scribe
869 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2006 : 23:46:54
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I already started to discuss how making general comments about fans of RAS, as opposed to discussing the journal entries of Drizzt, could potentially get out of hand, and it is starting to do just that. We are careening toward personal attacks, and toward deliniating "us" versus "them" in regards to those that like RAS' books and those that do not, and moving farther from discussion the journal entries themselves.
Lets return to discussing the topic at hand, lest this particular scroll need to be shelved. Thank you. |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2006 : 23:53:31
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quote:
In addition: Isn't the editor (who I assume has knowledge of Realmslore) also partially responsible for this?
Not at all. :)
Anyway, I really don't have anything else to contribute to this thread. Ta, folks. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2006 : 00:12:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
I think it's more helpful discussing Bob's supposed infidelity to Realmslore in specifics than generalities.
Sure. - The recent Gauntlgrym thing in The Two Swords (see here)
- "Comrades at Odds" -- despite summoning spirits and even resurrection being considered taboos to elves, Ellifain's spirit is yanked out of Arvandor in order to soothe Drizzt's angsting heart. Unless I'm very wrong, I don't think there's been any product about elves yet that override their established attitude toward this matter
- Having Shayleigh, an elf, sleep with her eyes closed in The Cleric Quintet (In Sylvan Shadows was published in 1992, according to the Wikipedia) -- though I'm not sure whether it had been established, at the time, that FR elves enter Reverie open-eyed
There're other things, like giving Dove brown hair and portraying Khelben horribly OOC, as well as the matter of Ghost's death in The Cleric Quintet, but I'm not sure what the established lore was like at the time. Regardless, I'm sure people can find other things in his books that relentlessly poke holes in canon.
And people wonder why I think the FR canon is an absolute, sticky, migraine-inducing mess.
quote:
Originally posted by Ignorance Personified
The philosopher in question was excuted from claiming to be ignorant because constantly admitting his ignorance pissed off many prominent political figures (see the Republic Book I[examples of Soc. proclaming ignorance], the Apology [trial and pissed off Athenians], and the Phaedo (an account of the execution)-- So, dearest, why isn't that in context?
Because, clearly, GothicDan and I are tyrannical entities with the power to execute people. And oppress them, too, of course. Yes. Very in-context.
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I see your point, but reading through hundreds of novels and dozens of sourcebooks does seem to be asking a great deal from an author--after all researching that much text generally takes professional historians years (even those studying the twentieth century) and the popular ones are aided by numerous of graduate students.
I doubt it. All one needs to do is focus on specifics. Salvatore doesn't need to read up on everything, just the things relevant to his stories. And since he locks his stories in a rather closed corner of the Realms, that's not hard at all.
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That being said: I must concede that Mr. Salvatore evidently did not take advantage of reading the material as it was published and other authors seem to have achieved a working knowledge of the subject material.
Exactly. So if other people can do it, then why can't he? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2006 : 00:55:30
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Ugh... We just had a request to return to the topic at hand. The request appears to have gone unheeded. I don't want to do this, but I feel obligated to lock the thread.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 20 Jul 2006 00:56:08 |
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Drizzt's Journal Entries
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