| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Mazrim_Taim
Learned Scribe
341 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Jul 2006 : 07:02:27
|
I'm curious as to know which DM's do and which don't. I recently played in a 3.5 game where we used both, and it made combat a whole lot easier. I am thinking of trying this for my own campaigns but I cringe at the cost of buying a battle map and the miniatures of various sizes I'd need.
|
And if the PCs DO win their ways through all the liches to Larloch, “he” will almost certainly be just another lich (loaded with explosive spells) set up as a decoy, with dozens of hidden liches waiting to pounce on any surviving PCs who ‘celebrate’ after they take Larloch down. As the REAL Larloch watches (magical scrying) from afar. Myself, as DM, I’d be wondering: “Such a glorious game, so many opportunities laid out before your PCs to devote your time to, and THIS fixation is the best you can come up with? Are you SURE you’re adventurers?” -Ed Greenwood
|
|
|
Dhomal
Senior Scribe
USA
565 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2006 : 07:12:24
|
Hello-
Yes, I do use these for games I run - as well as games I play in.
Buying the mat, and miniatures Can be an expensive proposition - but it does not have to be.
You could take some paper and make your own grid (just get it nice and even - and sized right) and then get the paper laminated. You could do this with numerous 8 1/2 x 11 inch sheets - or with a single/couple larger sheets. The lamination should be pretty cheap, and would allow them to be re-used and written on/wiped off.
As for miniatures - you could go the route of the old wargames - carboard counters. You can get a ton made pretty quickly - and make them of varying sizes. I recomend NOT naming them - but rather numbering them. That way - you can use the same bunch of Large #1-#10 markers for 4 trolls, or 5 ogres, or even both - as long as the trolls were decided to be 1-4, and the ogres 6-10. Get some smallish envelopes to keep them in - and you are ready! Low cost, highly portable, as well as helping combats - having everyone know where they are.
Dhomal |
I am collecting the D&D Minis. I would be more than willing to trade with people. You can send me a PM here with your email listed - and I can send you my minis list. Thanks!
Successfully traded with Xysma! |
 |
|
|
Mazrim_Taim
Learned Scribe
341 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2006 : 07:40:44
|
Okay. I gotcha. Thanks for the advice.
Where do you go about getting the old wargame cardboard counters? |
And if the PCs DO win their ways through all the liches to Larloch, “he” will almost certainly be just another lich (loaded with explosive spells) set up as a decoy, with dozens of hidden liches waiting to pounce on any surviving PCs who ‘celebrate’ after they take Larloch down. As the REAL Larloch watches (magical scrying) from afar. Myself, as DM, I’d be wondering: “Such a glorious game, so many opportunities laid out before your PCs to devote your time to, and THIS fixation is the best you can come up with? Are you SURE you’re adventurers?” -Ed Greenwood
|
|
|
|
Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2006 : 08:35:07
|
Chessex sell a 34" by 48" battle mat for around 30 US Dollars
As for minis it depends on how much obsessive you are for example you could do it on the cheap by buying the Hill Giant Barbarian and use it for all Large Humanoids. You could get the Large Green Dragon from WODQ and use it to represen all LArge Dragons etc |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
|
|
|
Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2006 : 08:47:36
|
| I am wondering, since I don't use minis in my game and have never played with them either, if using them is distracting the role playing side of the game. I would think it limits the imagination and creativity of players and gamers alike because the focus is highly on the minis and the battle grid. Any opinions? |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
|
|
|
Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2006 : 09:14:30
|
I use them as well, and it really helps. You don't have to buy a big and cumbersome battle mat, I got the flip-mat from steelsquire, way cheaper and when you fold it it fits nicely into a bag along with your books.
Ergdusch, since battle really isn't that much a roleplaying activity it doesn't hinder it at all. Minis etc is a terrific aid to help players and GMs alike, PM me if you wanna know more. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
|
|
|
Sian
Senior Scribe
Denmark
596 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2006 : 12:50:18
|
| well ... in the group i'm attending we just use one of the dices we aren't going to use ... and then the DM got a bunch of d6's and diceboxes and the like for monsters ... then you can imagen yourself how the monster look like :) |
what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month |
|
|
|
Kaladorm
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1176 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2006 : 12:56:13
|
I can't believe some people 'don't' use them  . It adds a great level of tactics to a battle, personally I'd find it harder to have a good combat without them.
I assume you mean using them just for combat, I can't see many other situations where it would be that useful (perhaps dungeon crawling through traps) |
|
|
|
Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2006 : 17:29:28
|
I don't when I run table top games and it's always been more of a hassle then a help for me. As for my email games, it's even more of a hassle trying to use grids and minis.
I know that 3/3.5e seems to be built around using grids/minis but, as I've said before, I learned how to DM during 2e and we didn't "need" grids/minis for combat and hardly any DM's that I played a PC with used them. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
|
|
|
Sadonayerah Odrydin
Learned Scribe
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2006 : 17:57:21
|
Like most people, I use minis for battles. But I don't use a grid or anything, just the minis. Not a big fan of the grids, though I have used them. With my FRCS, I received a map and that's kind of what we use instead. (mostly for traveling and such. not really for battles). And I have had DM's use dice as creatures but that's usually only when we've run out of miniatures to use.   |
"What's that," asked Mogget.
"Sardines," said Sam. "I knew they were standard rations, so I got a few tins for you."
"What are sardines?" Moggest asked suspiciously. "And why is there a key? Is this some sort of Abhorsen joke?"
Abhorsen by Garth Nix
"What you made a vampire...Pomeranian?!" --Hannibal King from Blade Trinity
~Sadie |
|
|
|
Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2006 : 18:02:39
|
I have never used a mini or any other props that I can remember. At most its been to take a couple of random objects at hand to show the positions at the start of a battle. Even this has only happened three or four times and then at the request of players.
It should be mentioned that I have never played or DM'ed a 3ed game. |
|
|
|
Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2006 : 18:56:03
|
I can only repeat what I said before in other threads: minis help you run the game and avoid discussions etc, this way, if the mage casts a fireball into melee and other PCs get hurt he can NOT revise his action by claiming he wasn't aware of that.
I started learning how to DM with the original D&D, the Dark Eye, Traveler and Star Wars, and I never used minis before now, and I regret it. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
|
|
|
msatran
Learned Scribe
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2006 : 19:36:56
|
I use miniatures and a battle grid under most circumstances. There is only one where I do not.
A single creature. Typically, most single creatures that your PCs will fight fall into one of two categories.
1) The creature is so unbelievably large and/or has so much movement that a battlemap is insufficient to represent the distance that the creature can move, or has a ton of reach, so all you need to remember are the numbers regarding the reach.
or
2) The creature is a powerful spellcaster, with so much range for the spells that he/she casts that the battlemap is essentially irrelevant. Joe Fireball has a range of 400 feet plus 40 feet per level. So that means that unless you have a battlemap that's 12 feet by 8 feet, it's unlikely that you can get the numbers to work without some extreme fudging.
Remember, a 15th level wizard casting Delayed Blast Fireball has a range of 1000 feet. that's three football fields. On a battlemap, this is not representable. |
|
|
|
GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2006 : 21:21:37
|
I have never used a battle grid except in one 3E game (figures). Otherwise, simple drawn pictures are used. Of course, I've never been in a game above 10th level.
But, when I played my Fire Mage Fire Genasi, I said, "I cast a fireball into the melee such that only the edge catches the enemies in the blast, to avoid damaging allies," or something. My character had an Int of 19, I didn't have to use any damn grid to do that. :) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
|
|
|
Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
|
|
warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2006 : 22:11:03
|
My group almost always uses a mat and minis.
For one it cuts down on the confusion of how far away you are from things and also on where everything/one is located at.
Several disagreements have broken out before during the few times we didn't have the mat/minis out.
As to causing a distract, generally no, unless those of us that paint/customize our own figs just did a new one or takes out one that no one has seen before, then sometimes it does cause a bit of distraction as most of the group wants to take a good look at it. |
News of the Weird
D20 System Reference Document
D20 Modern System Reference Document
|
|
|
|
warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2006 : 22:12:51
|
Oh and there are times have used just Dice on an open tabletop too  |
|
|
|
Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2006 : 22:27:27
|
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
I have never used a battle grid except in one 3E game (figures). Otherwise, simple drawn pictures are used. Of course, I've never been in a game above 10th level.
But, when I played my Fire Mage Fire Genasi, I said, "I cast a fireball into the melee such that only the edge catches the enemies in the blast, to avoid damaging allies," or something. My character had an Int of 19, I didn't have to use any damn grid to do that. :)
Exactly,
So as I said, since it seems that Mace has decided to be offended again, for some odd reason, I stand by what I said, they might help his games but they don't help in mine and they are more of a pain in my games. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 10 Jul 2006 22:51:22 |
|
|
|
msatran
Learned Scribe
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2006 : 22:47:44
|
| It's basically a differing nature of styles. I love the miniatures because it stops arguments, keeps things moving at a reasonable pace and allows people to describe their actions, while allowing people to imagine it more fully. |
|
|
|
Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2006 : 23:02:17
|
I have just recently started using minis etc, and yes, it can work without, for roughly 2 decades I ran games without them and it worked ... sometimes well sometimes not so well. To qoute one of my players: "Now you can actually SEE 20 monsters, this makes the entire affair far more scary."
Without miniatures numbers are just that. Players, and who among us hasn't, never really envisions the scope and scale of foes. With minis the threat becomes far more believable. As for sketches and maps, sure they can work, but even then it is only numbers. If a GM tells his players that they are surrounded it is still only words, once you bring a physical component into play it becomes a vastly different beast.
For those of us who were in any sort of military and went through basic training, like myself, a situation on paper cannot be compared to the real thing (even with only training ammo etc), once you are forced to survey your surroundings you begin to think differently.
I can only talk of my experiences, and I know that after any session I GMed I was exhausted because I didn't wanna use maps/sketches and minis. I wanted to have my players imagine it all, so I basically also functioned as a tactical computer plotting everything. Aside from the fireball issue I had discussions about movement, cover, basically any kind of situation that could pose a problem. No, I didn't want to cause a TPK, but when a player gets scared for his character they will do everything possible to keep him alive.
Now I have my map and my minis and if the gnome cannot reach a target in one round he cannot reach the target in one round. More fun for me and for the players is the result, because now a bad decision is their fault.
As for the offended part, Kuje, check your PM, |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
|
|
|
GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2006 : 23:14:44
|
Mace, note that I was being self-deprecating in my reply. It wasn't self-aggrandizement.
As in - any thing I can see with mini's, a character who is vastly superior to me can figure out without me having to use my own visual aids to guide him. :)
Of course, in the main long-term game I played in, we almost never had combat, anyway. Or, when we did, it was against other NPC parties or the like. My DM wasn't really the type to throw 20 goblins at us at once (or if he did, he did so intelligently - not just swarms).
In the 3E game I played in, my Wizard was Flying, Invisible, above the entire battle, so all I had to worry about was the Lich, while me and my friend's PC dropped Dire Jaguars onto the guards on the ground below. No real need for mini's, there, since it was a 2-on-1 air battle.
Magic-users are something different. ;) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
Edited by - GothicDan on 10 Jul 2006 23:24:32 |
|
|
|
Varl
Learned Scribe
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 06:15:42
|
| I use a grid and lots of minis in my 2e FR game, only the grid is clear plexiglas tiles precut into shapes with permanent lines drawn on the reverse side so I never have to worry about wear. |
I'm on a permanent vacation to the soul. -Tash Sultana |
|
|
|
Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 09:14:05
|
We have always used minis in our 3.0/3.5 Realms Campaign.
Note I have switched between using/not using a battle map and/or minis of some kind for years (as far back as 1E), prior to this most recent campaign.
However I have also run 3.5 combats with no minis (very recently) as well.
I have been fortunate to have players who were/are big into minis painting (read: Warhammer players) and who were willing to share minis from their collection to use as PC minis. Additionally these players were willing to split the cost on purchasing battle mats (and even went so far as to make their own laminated table-sized mats at work - don’t tell the boss!).
For Monsters, I have found that the simple cardstock cut-outs like the Dungeon Magazine Monster Inserts of old work well. Also heavy duty paper works well -- just cut sizes up for medium, large, huge sizes and so on and you can label them by creature name (and number, if multiples of the same type are to be used).
Probably the best 2d card stock are the Fiery Dragon creature counters. Each set (~11.00 US) comes with 200-250 fully illustrated (torso on up, usually) counters and focuses on a theme (humanoids, cultists, demons/devils, etc...) and includes creatures of many sizes. <--Good way to get started!
Since then we have all purchased a box of plastic minis here and there and we just share them amongst the group as needed.
I find that a battle map is a necessity for Third Edition if players are running characters designed to perform combat maneuvers (Monk, Spring Attacking PC, Bull Rusher, etc...) and/or the DM wishes to do the same.
Having a battle map helps a great deal to teach players the game.
In my experience as play progresses to higher levels, PCs become more experienced with the combat system and do not fuss over the basics as much (like PC position on the map), but combat also takes on more variables as distance, spell range, creature move speeds, existing spell effects (Wall of Force, anyone?), the ability to fly, and movement on other planes (like the Astral) come into play.
So a decent sized battle map remains an essential tool during all parts of a campaign.
It’s been my experience that a well run combat using a battle mat and minis of some kind makes play more fun for everyone.
Thus I recommend using a battle map and minis.
J. Grenemyer
PS: Creature SIZE gets pushed to the front of a players mind when you as DM bust out a 20' x 20' or bigger counter on the map. Even if it’s just cardstock, when that counter is on the map next to the PC's 5' x 5'...well lets just say it really gets a player’s imagination going. |
09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
Edited by - Sanishiver on 11 Jul 2006 09:25:30 |
|
|
|
Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 12:28:55
|
thanks for the insides everyone! and thanks for opening this topic, Mazrim! I found it to be very informative! As to if I will use minis and grids from now on...
lets say, I am considering...
Ergdusch |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
Edited by - Ergdusch on 11 Jul 2006 12:29:43 |
|
|
|
Mazrim_Taim
Learned Scribe
341 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 13:33:31
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
thanks for the insides everyone! and thanks for opening this topic, Mazrim! I found it to be very informative! As to if I will use minis and grids from now on...
lets say, I am considering...
Ergdusch
Yeah, I've found it very helpful as well. I've been looking around at miniatures and you can get sets of commons for pretty cheap on ebay. I think I may just buy a few of these sets and use them as they usually come with a few small, a few large, and the rest medium. As well as miniatures that could possibly be used for player characters.
I am not sure what I am going to use for a battle grid yet. If I can find a cheap one (i'm not exactly sure where to start looking for one  ), then i'll get that. But for now I think I'll try to make my own and laminate them. Would be awesome if there were a place where I could just buy a huge one that is erasabke though. |
And if the PCs DO win their ways through all the liches to Larloch, “he” will almost certainly be just another lich (loaded with explosive spells) set up as a decoy, with dozens of hidden liches waiting to pounce on any surviving PCs who ‘celebrate’ after they take Larloch down. As the REAL Larloch watches (magical scrying) from afar. Myself, as DM, I’d be wondering: “Such a glorious game, so many opportunities laid out before your PCs to devote your time to, and THIS fixation is the best you can come up with? Are you SURE you’re adventurers?” -Ed Greenwood
|
|
|
|
Wandering_mage
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 14:19:24
|
Yes I use miniatures and a battle grid. I don't know how I ever played without them. Of course my friend is the one buying the miniatures though. I don't have that kind of money.  |
Illum
The Wandering Mage |
|
|
|
Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
|
|
Mazrim_Taim
Learned Scribe
341 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 15:07:08
|
| Thanks Mace, the one in the middle and top looks like it would serve my purposes well. |
And if the PCs DO win their ways through all the liches to Larloch, “he” will almost certainly be just another lich (loaded with explosive spells) set up as a decoy, with dozens of hidden liches waiting to pounce on any surviving PCs who ‘celebrate’ after they take Larloch down. As the REAL Larloch watches (magical scrying) from afar. Myself, as DM, I’d be wondering: “Such a glorious game, so many opportunities laid out before your PCs to devote your time to, and THIS fixation is the best you can come up with? Are you SURE you’re adventurers?” -Ed Greenwood
|
Edited by - Mazrim_Taim on 11 Jul 2006 15:09:59 |
|
|
|
Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 15:09:40
|
| Dude, it's the same thing ;) top left folded flip mat, middle one rectangle side, right hex side... |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
|
|
|
Mazrim_Taim
Learned Scribe
341 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 15:10:24
|
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Dude, it's the same thing ;) top left folded flip mat, middle one rectangle side, right hex side...
Oh, sorry.
I have those moments sometimes.  |
And if the PCs DO win their ways through all the liches to Larloch, “he” will almost certainly be just another lich (loaded with explosive spells) set up as a decoy, with dozens of hidden liches waiting to pounce on any surviving PCs who ‘celebrate’ after they take Larloch down. As the REAL Larloch watches (magical scrying) from afar. Myself, as DM, I’d be wondering: “Such a glorious game, so many opportunities laid out before your PCs to devote your time to, and THIS fixation is the best you can come up with? Are you SURE you’re adventurers?” -Ed Greenwood
|
|
|
|
Halidan
Senior Scribe
USA
470 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 15:27:01
|
I'm a different case than some of the folks here - I've been DMing since 1976 (white box D&D) and came to the RPG hobby out of traditional wargaming (mostly medievals and WWII). I've always felt that miniatures were essential to the game. By miniatures, I don't just mean PC and monster figures, but trees, hills, ruins, statues, creeks, and just about anything else I can either make or find to use. I've been told that I set a very pretty table for my games.
I feel the miniatures are esential in order to help the players visualize the terrain and setting of the game. Rather than distract from the role-playing, the minis help people get into character and allows them to use terrain and objects to their advantage in both combat and non-combat situations.
I don't have any pictures of one of my gaming set-ups handy at this point, but I"ll llok for one later this afternoon so I can show folks what one of my typically set ups looks like. |
"Over the Mountains
Of the Moon
Down the Valley of the Shadow,
Ride, boldly ride,"
The shade replied,
"If you seek for Eldorado!"
Edgar Allen Poe - 1849 |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Do you use miniatures and a battle grid?
