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ErskineF
Learned Scribe
USA
330 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Dec 2008 : 04:12:51
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Breaking News: A group of adventurers discovered a hoard of gold coins near some ancient ruins.
Sort of.
JERUSALEM Israeli archaeologists said they have unearthed more than 250 gold coins from the seventh century on the edge of Jerusalem's walled Old City. A British tourist volunteering at the dig discovered the trove on Sunday.
This is of interest to gamers, because of the accompanying pictures showing the size of ancient gold coins. One picture shows a pile of the coins in a person's cupped hands. I estimate there to be about 30-40 of them, and they make a very small pile. Gold being heavy, fifty of them might make a pound, but it reinforces my belief that switching to 50/lb was a good decision.
And it lets me carry more loot. 
Mod edit: Fixed the code to make it look pretty. 
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Erskine Fincher
http://forgotten-realms.wandering-dwarf.com/index.php |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 23 Dec 2008 06:33:56
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2008 : 04:18:33
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Hmm always an interesting discussion. The size of coin did vary and always will.
It is not the size that matters, large coins or the small coins. What matters is how much the gold can buy.
There could be dimne gold coins and talant gold coins. The later much larger then the former. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
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ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
Learned Scribe
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2008 : 05:10:50
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| Well, it's difficult to accurately calculate the weight because we don't know what the ratio of the mixture of metals in the gold alloy is. It is unlikely that they used pure gold, as the coins would be easily damaged. I also did the calculation on the weight of pure gold coins, using the dimensions of coins as described in the Draconomicon. It says that coins are a little over an inch in diameter and one tenth of an inch thick. Assuming I did my math correctly, the weight of one gold coin would be 0.0548 lbs, making 50 coins weigh 2.74 lbs. This makes it pretty obvious that they are not using pure gold coins. So unless anyone has any expertise on ancient coins and the most common alloys used in them, I don't know how we can calculate the actual weight of a gold coin. |
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ErskineF
Learned Scribe
USA
330 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2008 : 06:36:54
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| That brings up one thing that's always bugged me: Dragon hordes. Draconic hordes are described as being huge piles of gold, enough for this seriously big critter to make a bed out of it and sleep on it. Yet the treasure tables give dragons only enough gold for a decent-sized pillow... I understand not wanting the PCs to pick up a couple million gold pieces at once, but that disconnect has always bugged me. |
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ErskineF
Learned Scribe
USA
330 Posts |
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Ghost King
Learned Scribe
USA
253 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2008 : 08:23:40
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Hmm, I think it is time to go treasure hunting.
Yeah dragons should get much more loot, but I guess they didn't want to have adventurers retire after one dragon horde. However, I still maintain you can adventure being super rich; it is just a heck of a lot easier for you to do it. Plus usually if you give PCs a lot of money they'll blow it pretty fast building fortresses/homes, partying, and buying or improving magical items. For some freakish reason I always have the luck of ending up with groups of people so frugal with their cash I'd be weary to give them so much. But as long as it is a rare thing I don't see a harm of them getting a treasure horde once in a blue moon. |
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ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
Learned Scribe
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2008 : 12:21:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That brings up one thing that's always bugged me: Dragon hordes. Draconic hordes are described as being huge piles of gold, enough for this seriously big critter to make a bed out of it and sleep on it. Yet the treasure tables give dragons only enough gold for a decent-sized pillow... I understand not wanting the PCs to pick up a couple million gold pieces at once, but that disconnect has always bugged me.
They talk about that in the Draconomicon too. I kinda like the idea of making the horde all copper pieces to make a bed for the dragon. It makes carrying the horde out a lot more interesting... |
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dwarvenranger
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2008 : 16:13:15
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| Pretty cool, sorta makes me want to be an archeologist. |
If I waited till I knew what I was doing, I'd never get anything done.
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2008 : 17:03:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That brings up one thing that's always bugged me: Dragon hordes. Draconic hordes are described as being huge piles of gold, enough for this seriously big critter to make a bed out of it and sleep on it. Yet the treasure tables give dragons only enough gold for a decent-sized pillow... I understand not wanting the PCs to pick up a couple million gold pieces at once, but that disconnect has always bugged me.
My thought on this is that when Dragons first appeared in D&D...they were not NEARLY as big as they are now. Add to that my old idea of having each coin be a full ounce sized coin...and you can get a dragon horde...but that was all in 1e.
The problem we have is that Dragons in D&D are somewhat common. Really, it would be cool to me if they were much rarer and only the mightiest hero had a chance of bringing them down. With so much money suddenly found, it would make a nice conclusion to an adventure series. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2008 : 17:28:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Really, it would be cool to me if they were much rarer and only the mightiest hero had a chance of bringing them down.
I agree that only the mightiest hero should be able to down one... And that's the way it is in the fiction. The rules actually support it, with giving dragons lots of magic and serious intelligence. The problem is, a lot of DMs tend to treat them as just bigger critters. I've had more than one person tell me about how their character wiped out dragons without breaking a sweat, and they always look puzzled when I comment "Not if I was running the dragon." |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2008 : 17:48:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Really, it would be cool to me if they were much rarer and only the mightiest hero had a chance of bringing them down.
I agree that only the mightiest hero should be able to down one... And that's the way it is in the fiction. The rules actually support it, with giving dragons lots of magic and serious intelligence. The problem is, a lot of DMs tend to treat them as just bigger critters. I've had more than one person tell me about how their character wiped out dragons without breaking a sweat, and they always look puzzled when I comment "Not if I was running the dragon."
I make dragons in my FR (even 3e) smaller. I think the biggest Dragon I have had the party encounter was just above Large size...no Garg. sized dragons in my campaign. I also give them huge hoards. It doesn't bother me that the party comes across so much money. Getting it out of the wilderness is an adventure all of its own.
Player: "What the hell? How did all those Hobgoblins find out the Dragon was dead? Man...do you guys think we can take out a whole tribe of hobgoblins...cause I really want my loot!"
DM: "Well, when the Dragon didn't come to their village and take tribute and dinner...they realized something must have been wrong..."
There is always a way to both reward the party with a massive hoard, let them have a nice chunk and the prime pieces...and then the rest can be taken by other dragons, local monsters, or the worst monster of all: the Royal Tax Collector.
Royal Tax Collector: "You have our King Azoun's great thanks! However, it is my duty to remind you that the hoard this beast rested upon was very much wrested from the hands of loyal citizens of Cormyr. As there is little way to know to whom the individual coins belonged to, it my duty to take 50% of its value to disperse to the poor of the Kingdom...this is of course on top of the 25% that is due the crown on such treasures found within his domain..."
I always thought it was nice to leave the awe...but relieve the purse at the same time.
This isn't done all the time; but money in my campaigns means little anyway...after all, King Mort of Tethyamar is richer than any Dragon he knows of. The other three have their skulls mounted on the outer turret of his personal stronghold...and those were some epic dang battles.
Anyway, the size of a gold coin is kinda hard to determine in both fantasy and real world. I mean, the typical Medieval mercenary had to be a near mathematical genius just to figure out how much money he actually had!
What with coins from Venice, France, Florence, a German Prince...each being of a different size, purity, weight and political value too!
Some people like the simple approach to loot in their game and that is fine...but I like confusing aspects that pull the players into the game. If it gets to the point where I see they aren't enjoying it at all...then I simplify. But you should see ol' King Mort trying to figure out just how much money he REALLY has because he has coins of his own nation, those minted in Sembia, Cormyr, Waterdeep, Zhentil Keep, Melvaunt, Thentia...and all of it fluctuates in value depending on what is going on in the world BESIDES the actual value of the metal!
Makes me glad sometimes that a dollar is a dollar...unless I go to Europe... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2008 : 18:38:10
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Unless that girls hands are huge (and the picture makes them look that way), they look about the size of an American Nickel. I pictured them being more the size of an old half-dollar, so I find this interesting and enlightening.
Thanks for posting this. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 Dec 2008 18:38:49 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2008 : 18:43:04
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quote:
Originally posted by ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
I kinda like the idea of making the horde all copper pieces to make a bed for the dragon. It makes carrying the horde out a lot more interesting...
-That's what I've done in the two instances where my players encountered Dragons with hordes. The "upper layer" is gems, platinum and gold, and the "lower layer" is silver and copper. Basically, the Dragon hides the coins that are worth less, in an attempt to boost it's own self-confidence and ego. Obviously, the mightier the Dragon, the more actual valuables the Dragon is going to have. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2008 : 20:44:38
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quote:
Originally posted by ErskineF
Breaking News: A group of adventurers discovered a hoard of gold coins near some ancient ruins.
Sort of.
JERUSALEM Israeli archaeologists said they have unearthed more than 250 gold coins from the seventh century on the edge of Jerusalem's walled Old City. A British tourist volunteering at the dig discovered the trove on Sunday.
This is of interest to gamers, because of the accompanying pictures showing the size of ancient gold coins. One picture shows a pile of the coins in a person's cupped hands. I estimate there to be about 30-40 of them, and they make a very small pile. Gold being heavy, fifty of them might make a pound, but it reinforces my belief that switching to 50/lb was a good decision.
And it lets me carry more loot.
Mod edit: Fixed the code to make it look pretty.
What a thoughtful post! |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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ErskineF
Learned Scribe
USA
330 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2008 : 20:58:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
The "upper layer" is gems, platinum and gold, and the "lower layer" is silver and copper.
At the very bottom would be his Chuck E. Cheese tokens, also known as Waterdhavian toals.
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Erskine Fincher
http://forgotten-realms.wandering-dwarf.com/index.php |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
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ErskineF
Learned Scribe
USA
330 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2008 : 21:47:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I've had more than one person tell me about how their character wiped out dragons without breaking a sweat, and they always look puzzled when I comment "Not if I was running the dragon."
Our DM has gotten much better at using them, but I'm always thankful that he hasn't perfected his technique. In our current campaign we've killed two smallish ones, and two large ones. One of the large ones was summoned into a room with a low ceiling, so he couldn't use his ability to fly. That was a serious handicap. The other one was out in the open, and put up a damn good fight. He almost got away alive, but our sorceror knocked him down with a fireball as he was fleeing. Unfortunately, he landed on the other side of the gorge where we had just so cleverly destroyed the bridge, and we were unable to get his magic items, much less his hoard.
The only dragon hoard we've managed to loot belonged to a small black dragon. He nearly got away too, but our tank grappled him at the edge of his pond, so that the rest of us could dispatch him. The hoard was underwater, and it was pretty meagre.
In 3e, the dragons may have gotten bigger, but their hoards have gotten smaller. The days when you could kill a dragon and build a castle on the proceeds are long gone. :)
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Erskine Fincher
http://forgotten-realms.wandering-dwarf.com/index.php |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2008 : 23:27:34
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One thing that I explained to my party was that Dragon Scales play a large part in a hoard of the dragons. They replace them (in my games...dunno about others') over their entire life, but don't really molt or anything. The result is that they make the hoard look much larger than it is because they are mixed in with the dragon's treasures both enhancing the size and marking the treasure because of constant grinding/touching of scales. The scales also break down over time from rubbing against metals and become "coinlike" in size; and to enhance the treasure the constant buffing by metals make them somewhat reflective.
It was a good compromise for me and not mixing in literally tens of thousands of coins. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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dwarvenranger
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2008 : 00:38:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
-That's what I've done in the two instances where my players encountered Dragons with hordes. The "upper layer" is gems, platinum and gold, and the "lower layer" is silver and copper. Basically, the Dragon hides the coins that are worth less, in an attempt to boost it's own self-confidence and ego. Obviously, the mightier the Dragon, the more actual valuables the Dragon is going to have.
That's what I do as well. |
If I waited till I knew what I was doing, I'd never get anything done.
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
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ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
Learned Scribe
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2008 : 05:43:56
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You probably get a nice groan from the players as well when they realise that there is a lot less gold there than they thought.  |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2008 : 14:10:37
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quote:
Originally posted by ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
You probably get a nice groan from the players as well when they realise that there is a lot less gold there than they thought.
Well, there is a flipside to dragon hoards being smaller than in the fiction: the hoards in the fiction could never be hauled off by a small group of people. At least, not in one attempt. |
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ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
Learned Scribe
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2008 : 14:37:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
You probably get a nice groan from the players as well when they realise that there is a lot less gold there than they thought.
Well, there is a flipside to dragon hoards being smaller than in the fiction: the hoards in the fiction could never be hauled off by a small group of people. At least, not in one attempt.
Yes, but if you use coppers, there is more volume to the hoard and less value. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2008 : 15:33:55
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| -I generally hand wave things like carrying capacity, as long as it's within some reason. Generally speaking, it's not something I particularly want to deal with. If I create a Dragon and give it a horde, I want the characters to have it. So, unless it makes for an interesting situation, where they have problems hauling it all... |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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ErskineF
Learned Scribe
USA
330 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2008 : 15:45:47
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It comes down to what you want the campaign to be about. If you have them trying to save the world, you don't want to bog them down too much with logistics.
Then again, you can present them with the moral dilemma of whether they're going to save the world, or bog themselves down trying to haul away the dragon's hoard. If they chose poorly, they deserve the trouble. :)
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Erskine Fincher
http://forgotten-realms.wandering-dwarf.com/index.php |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2008 : 16:01:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
-I generally hand wave things like carrying capacity, as long as it's within some reason. Generally speaking, it's not something I particularly want to deal with. If I create a Dragon and give it a horde, I want the characters to have it. So, unless it makes for an interesting situation, where they have problems hauling it all...
Oh, as a DM, I'd be quick to drop a bag of holding somewhere, just so that things like that wouldn't be as much of an issue. And considering the treasure tables, it wouldn't be -- unless you add in things like tapestries and statuary.
But the fictional hoards are another story... It's common to describe the dragon's head as being as big as a wagon. If that's just its head, and it's resting on heaps of gold, then how many cartloads is it going to take to clean it out? There's also the question of how to secure it, if you can't cart it all away at once... And though I generally don't worry about economics, its been pointed out more than once that dumping that much gold into the economy would have an inflationary effect. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2008 : 16:13:31
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| Heh, the original NWN 2 campaign deals with exactly this situation. After you kill a dragon and head back to your stronghold, you have to send out a retinue of your soldiers with some wagons to cart back all the gold. The amount of gold they cart back depends on how well-trained your soldiers are (for example, if they aren't well trained, you risk losing much of the gold to highway robbers). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2008 : 17:17:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
[quote]But the fictional hoards are another story... It's common to describe the dragon's head as being as big as a wagon. If that's just its head, and it's resting on heaps of gold, then how many cartloads is it going to take to clean it out? There's also the question of how to secure it, if you can't cart it all away at once... And though I generally don't worry about economics, its been pointed out more than once that dumping that much gold into the economy would have an inflationary effect.
-Concerning lore and literature, of course things should unfold in a logical manner, in regards to what the horde is. How often, though, do we see this? Not very often. I can't think of any Forgotten Realms novels where a Dragon is killed, and it's entire horde is taken. And, in cases of historical Realmslore, the designers literally have any tool theoretically available to ensure that things make sense logistically. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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see
Learned Scribe
235 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2008 : 19:55:36
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| I note the 1st Edition DMG openly says (on p. 90, Economics) that treasure in that edition is deliberately "fantastic and heroic" in proportion, not realistic, reflecting the size of treasure piles in "Conan, Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, Kothar, Elric, and their ilk" as opposed to the value/size of coins in "medieval England, let us say". |
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Gold coins...
