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Forgotten Ghost
Acolyte
Australia
36 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Jul 2006 : 08:29:19
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I was just wondering if anyone else had ever encountered this in a game they have played in or DM'd. In my current game all my PC's chose the region of Waterdeep for their region just to get the extra 300gp dispite the fact that thier back stories don't fit for the waterdeep region. I also let them purchase their starting kits and not one character purchased blankets or bed rolls because quote "there are no rule for them so they must not do anything" is this just my PC's player being tight or has anyone else experience this?
(Is this cause to be ashamed of my players... ? me thinks so)
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2006 : 09:15:59
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The players don't have to spend their money in any given way, but a DM can make an outdoor adventure very uncomfortable for characters without the right gear for the wilds. Of course, it mainly comes down to the playing style and expectations of you and your players. If they feel it as an unfair punishment that the spellcasters have problem regaining spells as they struggle to get any rest sleeping directly on the cold, moist ground, it may intrude on their enjoyment of the game.
It is often a fine line between what is felt as "DM punishment" and realistic consequences, and this will wary from group to group. |
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Kaladorm
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1176 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2006 : 14:13:00
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| I tend to buy random stuff like that, just for the sake of compelteness. After about level 3 it's just pocket change for stuff like paper, ink, bedroll etc, and you never know when it'll come in hand (small mirror? great for fighting beholders in an emergency) |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2006 : 16:59:27
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| I always buy misc goods when playing a PC and I usually ask my players to do so as well. If it isn't listed on your sheet, you don't own it as far as I'm concerned. So yes, I've had PC's who didn't have clothing, fare/drink, etc, and I'm a hard ass about this and so they suffered. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2006 : 01:13:03
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I'd search the dialog with them when you are not playing and explain to them that it is not "all" about swords and gold and armor. There is suppose to be a character behind the Sheet of paper.......... Letting them suffer might not neccessarily convince them to buy blanckets....
Just my thoughts
Ergdusch |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2006 : 03:54:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
I always buy misc goods when playing a PC and I usually ask my players to do so as well. If it isn't listed on your sheet, you don't own it as far as I'm concerned. So yes, I've had PC's who didn't have clothing, fare/drink, etc, and I'm a hard ass about this and so they suffered. :)
I've always bought all sorts of stuff for PCs... Aurora's Whole Relams Catalog is invaluable for this.
Buying stuff has helped flesh out characters for me, too. Like my swashbuckler thief (2E kit) who never slept on the ground, he had a hammock. He also carried a walking stick, simply for the look... and he and another character I created always spent at least 10% above PHB prices for clothing, to have nicer stuff.
I'd penalize the heck out of PCs who didn't get basic supplies.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2006 : 04:01:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
I always buy misc goods when playing a PC and I usually ask my players to do so as well. If it isn't listed on your sheet, you don't own it as far as I'm concerned. So yes, I've had PC's who didn't have clothing, fare/drink, etc, and I'm a hard ass about this and so they suffered. :)
I've always bought all sorts of stuff for PCs... Aurora's Whole Relams Catalog is invaluable for this.
Buying stuff has helped flesh out characters for me, too. Like my swashbuckler thief (2E kit) who never slept on the ground, he had a hammock. He also carried a walking stick, simply for the look... and he and another character I created always spent at least 10% above PHB prices for clothing, to have nicer stuff.
I'd penalize the heck out of PCs who didn't get basic supplies.
Yep, I almost always get that stuff for my characters.
When I run a game, I generally assume the PCs have basic equipment, but when it really matters, if it isn't on the character sheet, then they don't have it.
It's amazing how many people don't put down 50' Rope, or even Backpack  |
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Wenin
Senior Scribe
585 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2006 : 04:01:07
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Head over to www.roleplayingtips.com, it may have some helpful advice on talking with your players. The game is suppose to be an agreement between the DM and the Players, it isn't a DM against the Players. If you go about making their character's life difficult because they aren't buying into your game vision, then the agreement is broken... what's the point of playing as a PC? It is their story as much as it is yours.
You need to work out what shared vision you can work from. |
Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2006 : 04:14:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Wenin
Head over to www.roleplayingtips.com, it may have some helpful advice on talking with your players. The game is suppose to be an agreement between the DM and the Players, it isn't a DM against the Players. If you go about making their character's life difficult because they aren't buying into your game vision, then the agreement is broken... what's the point of playing as a PC? It is their story as much as it is yours.
You need to work out what shared vision you can work from.
Failure to apply common sense is not the same as not buying into your game vision. How can a PC expect to eat on the road if they aren't a hunter and don't buy rations? How can they expect to sleep comfortably on the ground, in cooler weather, without a bedroll and blanket?
That's how I'd penalize them. "No bedroll? Well, make a Constitution check to see if you slept well enough to heal. Oh, you want to study spells, too? Make that two Constution checks." |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2006 : 04:26:50
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They're from Waterdeep, meaning they have some extra money, yet they have no basic equipment?
Yeah.. Uhhuh.
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Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2006 : 06:23:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Wenin
Head over to www.roleplayingtips.com, it may have some helpful advice on talking with your players. The game is suppose to be an agreement between the DM and the Players, it isn't a DM against the Players. If you go about making their character's life difficult because they aren't buying into your game vision, then the agreement is broken... what's the point of playing as a PC? It is their story as much as it is yours.
You need to work out what shared vision you can work from.
Failure to apply common sense is not the same as not buying into your game vision. How can a PC expect to eat on the road if they aren't a hunter and don't buy rations? How can they expect to sleep comfortably on the ground, in cooler weather, without a bedroll and blanket?
That's how I'd penalize them. "No bedroll? Well, make a Constitution check to see if you slept well enough to heal. Oh, you want to study spells, too? Make that two Constution checks."
Yep |
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Forgotten Ghost
Acolyte
Australia
36 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2006 : 07:48:48
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| Well they always get the basics (as they consider them) like clothes, food, weapons, armour etc yet they always leave out blankets and bedrolls at least until they have enough money to buy some and are in a town to buy them. Yet amazingly they always buy at least 100ft of rope each and one character has to carry a bottle of fine wine...the wine if for those fights they just narrowly live through, when it's over they crack open the wine not as good a healing potions but certainly takes the edge of the pain. |
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Wenin
Senior Scribe
585 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2006 : 14:05:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Failure to apply common sense is not the same as not buying into your game vision. How can a PC expect to eat on the road if they aren't a hunter and don't buy rations? How can they expect to sleep comfortably on the ground, in cooler weather, without a bedroll and blanket?
That's how I'd penalize them. "No bedroll? Well, make a Constitution check to see if you slept well enough to heal. Oh, you want to study spells, too? Make that two Constution checks."
It can and in this case is the same.
Not everyone enjoys doing the number crunching of buying food, blankets and all the other small things an adventurer would have... and then keeping track of them throughout the game.
FYI: I actually do enjoy doing the above.
So if a DM wants to run a game ignoring the desires of their players, then they've earned every bit of heartache and headache moments and I'll have no sympathy for them.
Face the fact (however sad it is for us )that there are more gamers entering the gaming world that like the video game flavor for their D&D. In the vast majority of video games you don't have to worry about blankets, food and clothes. If you think beating these people about the head and shoulders with common sense will get them in line... then you're forgetting that RPGs are for having fun... not causing fights. |
Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2006 : 16:38:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Wenin
It can and in this case is the same.
Not everyone enjoys doing the number crunching of buying food, blankets and all the other small things an adventurer would have... and then keeping track of them throughout the game.
FYI: I actually do enjoy doing the above.
So if a DM wants to run a game ignoring the desires of their players, then they've earned every bit of heartache and headache moments and I'll have no sympathy for them.
Face the fact (however sad it is for us )that there are more gamers entering the gaming world that like the video game flavor for their D&D. In the vast majority of video games you don't have to worry about blankets, food and clothes. If you think beating these people about the head and shoulders with common sense will get them in line... then you're forgetting that RPGs are for having fun... not causing fights.
Then I don't want these people in my games and they can look for games elsewhere. Buying clothing, fare, blankets, etc, isn't that hard and if they are not willing to make a character with this stuff instead of just a sheet of numbers, then they aren't players that I care to RP with or DM for.
Fine, you have no clothing, you freeze in the middle of winter and get funny looks because you are wearing armor over bare skin and your weapons, even if you have a belt, seem to be somehow stuck into your body because you have no clothing/belt to wear them around your waist, etc. Oh, and you continue to get more funny looks because everywhere you go you are naked. And then later, unless you purchase food/drink, you start to starve.
I'm not saying you as in you but you as in everyone who does this. And then these new players need to learn how to better RP. It's not really number crunching, it's common sense and realizing you are playing a character that is supossed to exist in a world that is supposed to be "real." |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2006 : 17:08:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Wenin
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Failure to apply common sense is not the same as not buying into your game vision. How can a PC expect to eat on the road if they aren't a hunter and don't buy rations? How can they expect to sleep comfortably on the ground, in cooler weather, without a bedroll and blanket?
That's how I'd penalize them. "No bedroll? Well, make a Constitution check to see if you slept well enough to heal. Oh, you want to study spells, too? Make that two Constution checks."
It can and in this case is the same.
Not everyone enjoys doing the number crunching of buying food, blankets and all the other small things an adventurer would have... and then keeping track of them throughout the game.
FYI: I actually do enjoy doing the above.
So if a DM wants to run a game ignoring the desires of their players, then they've earned every bit of heartache and headache moments and I'll have no sympathy for them.
Face the fact (however sad it is for us )that there are more gamers entering the gaming world that like the video game flavor for their D&D. In the vast majority of video games you don't have to worry about blankets, food and clothes. If you think beating these people about the head and shoulders with common sense will get them in line... then you're forgetting that RPGs are for having fun... not causing fights.
I'm not big on the number crunching unless it is an issue, like the players being stuck in the middle of the desert with no magical means of getting food or drink.
I'm usually happy with food/drink just being on the character sheet, the only times it becomes an issue is if the party doesn't have a Cleric (almost always, I'm the only one in my group that plays a Cleric) or if they are in a very hostile environment. |
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Wenin
Senior Scribe
585 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2006 : 19:47:11
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If they are really opposed to what they likely perceive to be minute record keeping then I'd suggest a having them toss some amount of gold away and then they are considered to be equiped with the basics. This gold could be given willingly or unwillingly (short them on treasure). Unless they do something special, situations where they're magically teleported to the middle of a desert.... they aren't covered by this basic gear.
Hopefully it doesn't turn into a "I'm going to take my ball and go home." situation. Keep in mind that they're just trying to have fun as well. DMs should be very zen about these things, as its about picking your battles wisely. As another issue comes up that you find more important you can always remind them how you compromised on the previous issue.
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Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR. |
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Wandering_mage
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2006 : 20:13:19
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I definitely believe in the agreement between the DM and players. This is important to how you play the game. A bunch of 12 year olds aren't going to care about bedrolls and rations. However, I do think as we all advance a certain realistic feeling should be captured by the buying and use of equipment that aren't necessarily combat related. Just every day stuff. On that note my characters buy what is required and a little bit more only. Why? I usually have at least a 16 Dex for all my characters. I like being agile with my rapier. I am very fond of carrying loot too. Having been in the service I quickly found that some stuff was just not needed. It just weighed more than you liked. If you have gone camping you would get my drift. That is why mounts are needed.  Bottom line: cold weather or hot weather clothing are a must have. Food and bedroll are a must have. Backpack ya probably need unless you have something better in mind. Happy adventuring.  |
Illum
The Wandering Mage |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2006 : 20:14:09
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I don't understand why 3E people (and designers, apparently) get so worked up when we want things to run how we like it.
That's human nature. Some of us are just more open about it than others. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2006 : 21:21:08
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
I don't understand why 3E people (and designers, apparently) get so worked up when we want things to run how we like it.
I happen to play 3E and I don't care one cent how anyone runs their game; to each his own and all that.
The people that I know who play 3E don't take an "us vs. them" approach towards people who play other editions (or systems)
I don't know any game designers that are super overly concerned about how people run their games.
.....
I suggest getting over it, Dan. Remember Alaundo's mood thread?
J. Grenemyer |
09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
Edited by - Sanishiver on 03 Jul 2006 21:42:30 |
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Wenin
Senior Scribe
585 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2006 : 21:44:20
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Horray for self-editing!
When dealing with problem players, be careful not to burn bridges, especially if they lead to your friends.
Editted for continuity. =) |
Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR. |
Edited by - Wenin on 03 Jul 2006 21:52:11 |
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Arkhaedun
Senior Scribe
869 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2006 : 21:47:25
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| Reign in the personal comments everyone. This is getting a bit snarky and personal to be of use to anyone as a constructive discussion. |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2006 : 22:11:15
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I was unaware that a comment made out of confusion, curiosity, and pensiveness was negative.
I'll try to remember to just not state opinions in the future. ;) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Wandering_mage
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2006 : 00:31:25
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I like to think of every one here at Candlekeep is friendly towards each other and most of the time professional in their debates over several issues concerning the game and gaming world we all love, or else we wouldn't be here. Opinion can be stated but constructively. Let's all be friends and not get all tied in a tangle over something so trivial. Friends forgive and play on. I woul move for bracelets to be made that say, "What would Tyr do?" Or WWTD. Then again you might be a follower of Talos and that would cause some confusion wouldn't it? The difficulties with polytheism.  Come on, Game designers and authors peruse this site. Let us not dissappoint them.  |
Illum
The Wandering Mage |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2006 : 01:01:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Wandering_mage
I like to think of every one here at Candlekeep is friendly towards each other and most of the time professional in their debates over several issues concerning the game and gaming world we all love, or else we wouldn't be here. Opinion can be stated but constructively. Let's all be friends and not get all tied in a tangle over something so trivial. Friends forgive and play on. I woul move for bracelets to be made that say, "What would Tyr do?" Or WWTD. Then again you might be a follower of Talos and that would cause some confusion wouldn't it? The difficulties with polytheism. Come on, Game designers and authors peruse this site. Let us not dissappoint them.
Pants Wandering Mage <runs> 
The thing the OP is getting at is his players are not being "realistic" about things.
Anyone that has been out camping, knows you need at least a bedroll/blanket or equivalent. I mean if a player put down heavy cloak or winter cloak that would suffice in my book, but ALOT of people don't even do that. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2006 : 03:12:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Wenin
If they are really opposed to what they likely perceive to be minute record keeping then I'd suggest a having them toss some amount of gold away and then they are considered to be equiped with the basics.
That's actually a workable solution, to me: a basic equipment package worth so many gp. Even that is better than having PCs who think they can sleep on the ground, in the snow, with no ill effects. Of course, if they later need something beyond that basic package -- and the basic package would, of necessity, be described beforehand -- then they are screwed. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2006 : 03:25:08
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| I beleive one of the things in the PH II was starting adventuring packages for charcters to buy, to get them thinking about the types of things they should be buying to equip their characters. |
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Wandering_mage
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2006 : 00:24:22
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| What better way to complete your character than with everday needed possessions. I like keeping small tokens from past adventures just to keep some depth to my characters possessions. |
Illum
The Wandering Mage |
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Super Cheap PCs
