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Chyron
Learned Scribe
Hong Kong
279 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Jun 2006 : 14:58:50
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Greetings Sages,
I have recently received the old scrolls of “Dungeon” that feature the Vampires of Waterdeep saga. (#126, 127 and 128). While I was awaiting the delivery of these in the ‘snail-mail’ I was very anxious to see how these adventures played out and I must admit I became a bit reminiscent thinking back to the old City System box art…
…but upon receiveing them today I have become somewhat disappointed after seeing the overall flow. It left me thinking that this was just so much Vampiric overkill…
Semi-
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So I have been trying to really come to grips with my problem with the adventure itself. It seems to have a great premise (a sort of vampire turf war in Waterdeep)…but the players are just so much crunch I can’t really see running it without major overhauls.
I mean templates on templates on templates….
Vampire werewolves – ok…sort of an Underworld theme going on here, but
Vampire doppelganger…um…
Vampire medusa….well...
Vampire mermen…wha?....
Vampire ooze…..but that’s not allow....ok i guess it is...
Among others….
The ironic thing that struck me was the smack dab in the middle of this (#127) has an editorial about the merits of the ‘classic’ monster…yet these denizens seem few and far between amongst the ‘half-illithid carrion crawlers’ and ‘half green dragon ettin barbarians’ that seem prevalent….
Have players (and designers) become so bored with facing the classic fare that now everything has to be some odd hybrid? Hybrids that one would think, given the ‘rarity’ of some classic monsters they are based on, should be even rarer?
Is there no limit to the number of templates one can apply?
Hey how about….Vampiric, elemental, half-illithid, lycanthropic, demonic, kobolds…and they’re called Vamellithidebolds….yeah they rock.
Has anyone run this adventure successfully? I am curious to know what the player feedback was like.
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Just My Thoughts
Chyron :)
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Swordsage
Learned Scribe
149 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2006 : 00:38:58
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I'm surprised that you find a prevalence of vampiric creatures in an adventure arc titled "Vampires of Waterdeep" disturbing. Given the influence of the Unseen in the adventure arc, the use of the doppleganger isn't untoward and room after room of human vampires would have been labelled "boring" by the fanbase. Guess you can't win.
The Swordsage
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El Magnifico Uno
Learned Scribe
113 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2006 : 01:21:13
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err... Well you only have to look at some of the novels to see the direction Wizards is going.. The Rage series is my all time favorite for this.. Why have just a fighter when you can have a half-golem? Why have an elf when you can have a avariel duelist? Why have a dragon when you can a faery dragon, or were-dragon, or even better.. A vampire dragon!!.. And then, and then.. And then we can have them all in the same party!! That would rock!!.. I think it's an overblown attempt to make people aware of all the possibilities out there for the game (plus make them buy supplements - it's ALWAYS about that).. Thing is, those critters are suppossed to be rare and almost unique.. When overused they become hackneyed and commonplace.. When they are all in the same party or dungeon, it becomes a laughable circus (ie. The Rage series).. The idea is appreciable, but there should be some sanity limits..
Vampire template ooze? Give me a freakin break! Just make it some sort of Dark Pudding or Negative Energy Jelly.. No vampire is going to bite an Ooze, and if they did it's NOT going to turn into a freakin vampire!.. Standard Vampires (if well played) are pretty darn terrifying just by themselves.. They don't need templates.. they don't need to be some other goofy race with a vampire template.. Standard vampires are smart, powerful, adaptable, have the advantage of home turf, and have tons of nifty abilities.. There's no need to give every bloody thing a template.. Tons of templates are for games that are just mindless dungeon-crawling slaughterfests.. For me, the Westgate vampires should be more of a horror story than a bughunt.. Course if bughunts are the sort of thing one likes in a game, well then 'nuff said.. Each to his own..
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2006 : 09:11:24
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I would have changed the following aspects of the adventure to make it more to my liking:
- part I (#126): unchanged
- part II (#127): replaced mindcrawlers in C12 with advanced carrion crawlers
- part III (#128): removed the vampire gibbering mouth from F6 entirely. THis one is just one vampire creature too much (no replacement).
Otherwise, as for the other vampire templates go - it is a vampire adventure after all. Besides, it adds to the theme and flavor of the adventure to have a blood-thirsty vampire (in one form or the other) lurking behind every door.
Ergdusch
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"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2006 : 09:20:49
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quote:
Originally posted by El Magnifico Uno
I think it's an overblown attempt to make people aware of all the possibilities out there for the game (plus make them buy supplements - it's ALWAYS about that)..
There is a ring of truth in here, but OF COURSE that is the intention of WotC. After all they are a merchandise company. You cannot blame them for trying to advertise their products. There is no blame in that. If someone doesn't want to use the new material, he can simply work around it because - as for the Blood of Malar adventure - even though they mention the use of their new books (like Libris Mortis), it is easily convertable with just the 3 core-rulebooks. A little work and imagination is neccessary though...
My opinion
Ergdusch |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2006 : 03:46:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
I would have changed the following aspects of the adventure to make it more to my liking:
- part I (#126): unchanged
- part II (#127): replaced mindcrawlers in C12 with advanced carrion crawlers
- part III (#128): removed the vampire gibbering mouth from F6 entirely. THis one is just one vampire creature too much (no replacement).
Thanks for the feedback guys, good and bad.
A few comments:
1) I believe that master vampires should be played smart. That means they should think about who they turn into vampires. In Dhusarra's case, she felt that transforming werewolves into vampires would give her some very powerful minions.
2) While it's not to everyone's taste, I really like the idea of applying the half-illithid template to already tentacled creatures. Somehow it seems to fit better (IMC, I've houseruled that the half-illithid template can almost only be applied to creatures with preexisting tentacles). Hence, the half-illithid carrion crawler, aka the mindcrawler. Also, I wanted to show that the illithid influence on the Underdark beneath Waterdeep was real, and not just a random story to explain a certain other offstage half-illithid in the adventure.
3) As for the vampire gibbering mouther, I was fully aware that this was an illegal template combination. Dungeon allows occasional rule breakages of this type if it makes a modicum of sense. In this case, a gibbering mouther does have multiple mouths (unlike other oozes) and if you look at the straight gibbering mouther (I can't remmeber if it's the MM version or the LoM update), the abilities suggest "near-vampirism". Hence my thought that this is the one type of ooze that could accept the vampire template.
Anyhow, glad you liked the parts that you did like and hope the rest inspired you to create an adventure that was perfect for you.
--Eric
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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Chyron
Learned Scribe
Hong Kong
279 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2006 : 10:36:30
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quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
Thanks for the feedback guys, good and bad.
Thank you very much for your reply Mr. Boyd. After seeing some of your reasoning behind the choices made, it does seem more coherent now. I appreciate you taking the time to clarify your decisions.
I guess a stubborn part of me is still resistant to the notion of vampirism sitting on top of nearly any creature of a mythical/magical archetype, so my biggest double-takes were with the Merman, Medusa and Doppelganger. Part of this I attribute to my own lethargic assimilation of 3.X rules…but I am getting there bit by bit. (It might help if I can also get a copy of Libris Mortis one day….it is on ‘the list’).
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Just My Thoughts
Chyron :)
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2006 : 13:25:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Chyron
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
Thanks for the feedback guys, good and bad.
Thank you very much for your reply Mr. Boyd. After seeing some of your reasoning behind the choices made, it does seem more coherent now. I appreciate you taking the time to clarify your decisions.
I whole heartily agree! Thank you Mr. Boyd for this bit of inside information.
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
Anyhow, glad you liked the parts that you did like and hope the rest inspired you to create an adventure that was perfect for you.
--Eric
I surely will use it(even reconsidering the mindcrawlers after your post.) :) |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2006 : 18:07:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Chyron
‘half green dragon ettin barbarians’
For what it's worth, this guy was a half-green-dragon troll barbarian in my turnover, but Dungeon had already done a half-dragon troll recently so ... editorial change.
My thought was that Claugiyliamatar lives so close to the Evermoors, that a half-green dragon troll was the most logical goal of her "affections", plus the immunity / weakness combo would have made for a deadly opponent.
Either way, it still works.
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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Tunnels and Templates (Vampires of Waterdeep)
