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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Jun 2006 : 23:19:22
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Poll Question:
I plan to use Sammaster, former Chosen of Mystra, Founder and Firstspeaker of the Cult of the Dragon as the end plot challange in my FR campaign. The past few days I was on a search through the shelves of Candlekeep and other sources of lore for statistics of this very well known villian. I have found nothing to my liking. Therefore I decided to start a poll to ask thee, as I have got to know thee as a group of well studied sages of Realms Lore, to give me advice:
What Challange Rating (CR) represents the power of Sammaster best?
Please give reasons for your choice (and possible class(es) he obtained if you can think of any).
(I have added a few well known NPCs in brackets for guidance/comparison.)
Thank thee all in advance for sharing thy thoughts.
Ergdusch
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"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2006 : 00:10:47
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I chose 36 because it's somewhere between Laeral and Elminster, but I not too familiar with Sammaster and giving a CR to Elminster make me sick  |
Edited by - Skeptic on 24 Jun 2006 00:11:13 |
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Faramicos
Senior Scribe
Denmark
468 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2006 : 00:28:19
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| He is powerful, ill grant him that, but not Elminster. 36 it is... Good luck with the final battle. |
"When dragons make war, worlds can only tremble in the shadow of angry wings" |
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2006 : 02:46:02
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| From what i glean about Sammaster past and reading the rogue dragon trilogy, I say the CR for Sammaster should be above 50 or at least somewhere between 45-50, afterall, he was a ex-Chosen and very knowledgeable and very smart enough, so I think raising his challenge rating would make for worthy opponents and a glorious fight to remember. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2006 : 08:02:52
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| powerful yes, but more powerful than a current chosen, no. He would have lost some significant amount of power when booted by Mystra. |
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2006 : 08:59:18
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| Perhaps......but Sammaster seems to me as more flexible and maybe understanding of the styles and maneuvres of a Chosen, so since he is a ex-Chosen, raising the CR would make for more fun and a better time than dealing with a chosen. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2006 : 11:12:27
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| Sammaster at what point in time? We have different 2E stats for him, the most powerful of which lists him as a 26th level Lich Necromancer with a few unique traits still left over from being a Chosen (no banned schools, ability to control undead, and I think immunity to 9 spells still, off the top of my head). I'd put him at about CR 29 at that point. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2006 : 14:31:01
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WARNING: Spoilers for the Rogue Dragons-trilogy ahead.
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
Sammaster at what point in time?
I was thinking of Sammaster as he (re)appears in 1373 DR (Year of Rogue Dragons).
__________________________________________________________________
Edited Spoiler note  (hope that suffices) and changed the year(thanks CoB) |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
Edited by - Ergdusch on 25 Jun 2006 10:31:14 |
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2006 : 15:36:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
Sammaster at what point in time?
I was thinking of Sammaster as he (re)appears in 1374 DR (Year of Rogue Dragons).
Not meaning to nit-pick, but 1374 is the Year of Lighting Storms... 1373 is Year of Rogue Dragons. |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2006 : 19:44:25
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Well...(SPOILER FOR THE YEAR OF ROGUE DRAGONS TRILOGY, highlight to read)...if he reappered in 1374, that would probably be reincarnated as a worm or something equally low |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2006 : 19:52:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
Well...(SPOILER FOR THE YEAR OF ROGUE DRAGONS TRILOGY, highlight to read)...if he reappered in 1374, that would probably be reincarnated as a worm or something equally low
I was going to post something of the sort but wanted to avoid spoilers. But to say the least, I don't think Sammaster would be a suitable challenge in 1374. |
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2006 : 02:29:56
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| I strongly suspect that Sammaster would return in a even more powerful and stronger form of an undead, though we can speculate what undead form he will return in. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36800 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2006 : 04:32:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
I strongly suspect that Sammaster would return in a even more powerful and stronger form of an undead, though we can speculate what undead form he will return in.
Except, didn't the author say he was truly dead this time? Besides, (spoiler, highlight to read) how is a lich going to come back after his phylactery is destroyed? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2006 : 06:05:19
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| Surely there are ways to bypass the conventional need for a phylactery to anchor the soul, even the natural or unnatural stuff found everywhere can serve as a makeshift sort of phylactery. That will depend on how strong is Sammaster will and power. Well, that's just pure speculation. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36800 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2006 : 03:24:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
Surely there are ways to bypass the conventional need for a phylactery to anchor the soul, even the natural or unnatural stuff found everywhere can serve as a makeshift sort of phylactery. That will depend on how strong is Sammaster will and power. Well, that's just pure speculation.
Yeah, but the phylactery is used when the caster first becomes undead, and they are flat-out tied to it. No one has found a way around that yet. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2006 : 03:50:12
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| I agree with Wooly here. Sammy is toast, and more importantly, Richard Lee Byers agrees with Wooly also. |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2006 : 03:52:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Bane
I agree with Wooly here. Sammy is toast, and more importantly, Richard Lee Byers agrees with Wooly also.
He's dead until another author/WOTC wants to give it another "comeback". |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2006 : 14:34:55
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Toasted - well as for my campaign he soon might be exactly that. We will see how my players will handle the job - a very tough one not to mention. 
As for your answers - thank you for the participation and your help. I will take the majority vote as a guidance (CR 36 it is). If I have Sammasters stats ready (and believe them to be worth charing) I will post it here, if there is any interest.
Thanks again, Ergdusch |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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msatran
Learned Scribe
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2006 : 15:19:18
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I'm certain Sammaster has constructed so many false phylacteries that no one could ever possibly figure it out, made a million slotless amulets of dramatic death so he can be assured of his demise being fake, and rise to plot again.
He's SAMMASTER. He's one of the classic enemies of evil. You guys really should go and read an old Hero Games article called "How the villian gets away." If the PC's believe that the villain blew himself up, the villain gets away. If our villain doesn't need to breathe, and the heroes chase him to the shores of a lake, and they can't get down there, he gets away. If the heroes can't follow the villain into the sun, he gets away. There's dozens of means of Sammaster escaping death at the hands of some ridiculous half-construct character who is barely CR 15. |
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2006 : 15:25:43
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quote:
Originally posted by msatran
There's dozens of means of Sammaster escaping death at the hands of some ridiculous half-construct character who is barely CR 15.
Kind of off topic there but...
Did you read the Ruin? Dorn had nothing to do with Sammaster's demise. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36800 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2006 : 18:27:57
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quote:
Originally posted by msatran
He's SAMMASTER. He's one of the classic enemies of evil.
He's also dead, according to the author. And, according to the book, it wasn't a false phylactery; he had to use his own phylactery to be able to control the Rage.
So, regardless of the fact that he's Sammy and has been kicking for centuries, we have every indication that he is dead, and none at all that he could have survived. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Fletcher
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2006 : 19:49:29
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I don't see him as as much higher than a 32. But when he has a few dozen Dracoliches and around 50 or so purple robes backing him up...he is scary powerful.
Of course he was chumped by a 'barely CR15 half construct' :) |
Run faster! The Kobolds are catching up! |
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Zimme
Learned Scribe
Denmark
209 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2006 : 13:39:57
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| 36 seems as fitting, again he's powerfull but judgeing from the books not as powerfull as Elminster. in the book "cult of the dragon" it took both Khelben and Laeral to take him down......so 36 is a ok CR. |
Sometimes I feel like Beshaba is sitting on my back, devoting her entire attention to me!
Rannek.
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Zimme
Learned Scribe
Denmark
209 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2006 : 13:41:42
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| "cult of the dragon" rulebook that is!! ;) |
Sometimes I feel like Beshaba is sitting on my back, devoting her entire attention to me!
Rannek.
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Reefy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
892 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2006 : 02:31:55
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| CR doesn't usually mean a lot when looking at events in novels. |
Life is either daring adventure or nothing. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36800 Posts |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2006 : 16:55:46
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Well Wolly and his link - again! Always appreciated!!!
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"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2006 : 16:58:47
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Finally - lots of time and quite some nerves went ito his creation. Sammaster the Lich is ready to be taken apart. The stats I worked out for him are as follows:
Sammaster the Lich
Male Chondathan Human Wiz29/Acm5; CR 36; Medium-size Undead;
HD 36d12; hp 210; AL CE; Init +8; Spd 30 ft.; AC 31 (touch 14, flat-footed 15);
Base Atk +18; Full Atk +17/+11 melee (1d8+5, touch); Face/Reach 5 ft./5 ft.;
SV: Fort +14, Ref +18, Will +30; Abilities: Str 8, Dex 18, Con -, Int 30, Wis 17, Cha 16.
Special Attacks: Touch attack (DC 31), paralyzing touch (DC 31), fear aura (DC 31);
Special Qualities: Turning resistance +4, DR 15/bludgeoning and magic, undead traits, Immunities (Ex): Immune to cold, electricity, polymorph and mind-affecting attacks; Archmage High Arcana: Arcane Reach, mastery of counterspelling, mastery of elements, spell power +2; through the use of dark rituals and complex magical experiments Sammaster has the following permanent supernatural abilities: Darkvision, Detect Magic, See Invisibility, Tongues; Enhanced Intelligence: Sammaster used a Tome of clear Thoughts to increase his Intelligence. His Intelligence score has a+2 inherent bonus included in its value;
Skills and Feats: Appraise +24, Concentration +29 (+33 when casting defensively), Craft (alchemy) +20, Decipher Script +12, Diplomacy +8, Gather Information +10, Hide +14, Knowledge (arcana) +33, Knowledge (architecture and engineering) +18, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +18, Knowledge (geography) +28, Knowledge (history) +30, Knowledge (nature) +28, Knowledge (nobility and royalty) +20, Knowledge (religion) +28, Knowledge (the planes) +28, Listen +17, Move Silently +14, Profession (Merchant) +10, Ride (dragon) +6, Scry+20, Search +27, Sense Motive +22, Speak Language (chondathan, common, abyssal, celestial, damaran, draconic, dwarven, elven, illuskan, infernal, netherese, thorass), Spellcraft +34, Spot +16; Combat Casting, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Rod, Craft Staff, Craft Wand, Empower Spell, Heighten Spell, Greater Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Greater Spell Focus (Necromancy), Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Leadership, Maximize Spell, Quicken Spell, Scribe Scrolls, Skillfocus (Spellcraft), Spell Focus (Evocation), Spell Focus (Necromancy), Spell Focus (Transmutation), Spell Penetration, Summon Familiar;
Wizard Spells per Day: (4/7/14/12/6/6/6/5/5/5/3/3; base DC = 22 + spell level, DC 23 + spell level with Evocation and Transmutation spells; DC 24 + spell level with necromancy spells; caster level 36th).
Spellbook: As a very old lich and a powerful wizard Sammaster has access to a vast number of spells that are known and has created many unique necromancy spells known only to himself.
Possessions: As a powerful spellcaster and the head of an evil organisation, Sammaster has most likely access to incredible resources and can acquire almost any nonartifact item he might need, given time. He has bracers of armor +10, a headband of intellect +4, a ring of wizardry II & III (doubles 2nd & 3rd-level spells), staff of power and wings of flying in his possession at all times;
Height: 510, Weight: Unknown, Hair: Unknown, Eyes: Unknown.
(Books used: 3.x Ed.: Players Handbook, Dungeon Master Guide, Monster Manual, Epic Level Handbook, Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, Magic of Faerūn; 2. Ed.: Cult of the Dragon)
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"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
Edited by - Ergdusch on 18 Aug 2006 17:18:37 |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2006 : 17:03:01
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Any comments are appreciated, especially since I am a little uncertain about his epic levels.
Ergdusch |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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Tombo
Seeker
56 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2008 : 20:12:37
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| Thanks for doing this!! I am running a campaign based on the Year of Rogue Dragons trilogy, which was one of my favorite FR series by the way. |
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BARDOBARBAROS
Senior Scribe
Greece
581 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2008 : 11:15:20
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| I think it's CR 36 .. |
BARDOBARBAROS DOES NOT KILL.
HE DECAPITATES!!!
"The city changes, but the fools within it remain always the same" (Edwin Odesseiron- Baldur's gate 2) |
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CR for Sammaster
