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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Jun 2006 : 00:01:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
Its difficult to set up clear points for the Realms as each persons take would wary; I would concentrate on the writings we have from Ed, both on this site and in print and then try to organize the impression one gets from this. When one has a clear picture of how one envisions the realms it is easier to decide what one sees as the important element and what the "feel" is. After twenty years in print there are some game elements one may want to delete and some one wants to add. Then work up the rules for how one can get this to work as a game for one self.
I will try to think a little more about this tomorrow, but on this side of the world it is to late for me to really get my brain working.
That is exactly the work I'm beginning to do and with I ask help from the scribes here (if some are interested). Of course I could ask a long and detailed question in Ed's thread, but I don't think he would have the time to answer it.
The next step, for me, will be to see how it can be done with Burning Wheel. |
Edited by - Skeptic on 23 Jun 2006 00:04:17 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2006 : 17:49:20
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| well, If you could say a little bit of how you yourself see the realms and what you want to focus on, it would be a little easier to comment. There are literally thousands of things to say and comment; so what are your own thoughts? |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2006 : 18:34:06
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Well, I started (some posts above) with a first topic (Magic, the Weave, Power vs Art) and after Kuje's answers, the thread drifted a bit.
How I see the realms? Yesterday I read again the FRCS introduction, and I was suprised how I liked it.
Getting back on the Magic topic :
Should all Weave-based effect (Power, Art) have the same mechanics and different flavor ?
Do we need different mechanics for Art/Power variants ? (Such as bardic vs wizard vs sorcerer, cleric vs favored soul).
What are the limitations on the Art ? Access to healing spells or not ?
Power should give deity-tailored spell list or not ? If yes, some may have no cure spells and some have spells usually associated with the Art ? (like Kossuth clerics with fireball).
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Edited by - Skeptic on 23 Jun 2006 18:40:43 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2006 : 18:45:52
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Well, one of the problems for me is the explanations of the supernatural and the things mortals don't know. the rules has explained how the gods work, the Weave work etc. If you bring some of the mystery back it is easier to "explain" the Realms, at least to me. We know there is a weave and that it is governed by the goddess Mystra. We know that the weave manifests in many different ways and the only mortals that really knows the weave is the Chosen. When I have used other systems for the Realms I have used the mortal perspective as this removes the need for logical explanations of many things that in itself is not logical.
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2006 : 03:03:14
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Ok, since the magic doesn't seem to be an interesting subject, I'll try this new one : Psionics in the realms.
In 1e : it's rare, but they are some and there is the Wild talent thing.
In 2e (FR adventures) : there is NO MORE psionics.
In 3e : FRCS don't like psionics.
In 3.5 : PGtF finally take Psionics back in the realms with new organizations, feats and even a PrC.
Now for the description of Psi vs The Weave in 3.5 (Quoting the PGtF) :
[...] psionic ability taps only the inner reservoirs of the manifester. In a sense, each psionic creature is its own Weave, using the magic of its own lifeforce and mind to create psionic effect.
With this description, we should think that Psi and Magic would be different but for balance sake, the next paragraph says that magic and psionic are not transparent to each other.
So, without D&D limitations (rules and tone, a.k.a. balance) what should be Psionics in the realms ?
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2006 : 03:27:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
Ok, since the magic doesn't seem to be an interesting subject, I'll try this new one : Psionics in the realms.
In 1e : it's rare, but they are some and there is the Wild talent thing.
In 2e (FR adventures) : there is NO MORE psionics.
In 3e : FRCS don't like psionics.
In 3.5 : PGtF finally take Psionics back in the realms with new organizations, feats and even a PrC.
Now for the description of Psi vs The Weave in 3.5 (Quoting the PGtF) :
[...] psionic ability taps only the inner reservoirs of the manifester. In a sense, each psionic creature is its own Weave, using the magic of its own lifeforce and mind to create psionic effect.
With this description, we should think that Psi and Magic would be different but for balance sake, the next paragraph says that magic and psionic are not transparent to each other.
So, without D&D limitations (rules and tone, a.k.a. balance) what should be Psionics in the realms ?
Psionics did return to the Realms after the ToT. 'Twas simply explained -- in an RAS novel, of all places -- that the psionicists still had the power, but they had to relearn how to use it. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2006 : 03:40:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Psionics did return to the Realms after the ToT. 'Twas simply explained -- in an RAS novel, of all places -- that the psionicists still had the power, but they had to relearn how to use it.
Oh I forgot that one, TSR wasn't sure about to deal with them when FRA was sent to print it seems 
Some quotes from Ed's answers :
Oh, Faraer: in Ed's 'home' Realms, psionics doesn't work through the Weave, and therefore stands apart from magic, can work in dead-magic zones, etc. As for 3.5e WotC Realms, Ed's not so sure...
Faerunian minotaurs are very rarely seen or mentioned for the same reason psionics was downplayed for so long; they're considered essential elements of another TSR/now WotC product line (minotaurs meant Dragonlance, psionics meant Dark Sun). So while they're in the Realms (the 'home of everything' for 2nd Edition D&D), we weren't allowed to feature them in adventures or novels, or make more than passing mention of them.
kuje31, psionic items should be much rarer than magic items in the Realms. More later.
Ed has always preferred psionics in the Realms to be disorganized (i.e. individual creatures have wild talents, and may or may not have managed to find a tutor possessing the same power who can guide them in strengthening their own, in the same 1st and 2nd Edition way that magic users/wizards must bargain with and pay a tutor at each level advancement), for maximum surprise-in-Realmsplay reasons. He sees nothing wrong, however, with having secretive cabals (or blood-related families) of psionically-gifted individuals, or even a citadel or 'local hotspot' of psionic users.
And neither Ed nor I have the faintest what Illistyl's "official" WotC 3.5e stats would be. Her ORIGINAL stats described her psionics as a "wild talent," and Ed and I suppose we might go that route in 3.5e (the Wild Talent feat or its Hidden Talent expanded version) - - but then again, the question is largely meaningless because Ed still runs Psionics with the original rules plus the 'Mind Wrestling' internal unpublished TSR notes from 1978 to 1979 or so (akin to the DRAGON article from - - if memory serves me correctly - - issue 25), which in 3.5e terms is an approach to psionics very close to the EXPANDED PSIONICS HANDBOOK "Psionics is Different" Variant (in Ed's Realms, of course, it's not a 'variant' at all, but the original, unchanged governing psionics rules).
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shike
Seeker
USA
71 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2006 : 00:44:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
First problem here, D&D 3.x isn't flexible at all. It offer many options yeah, but they are fixed and deterministic in their effects.
Don't try to do Ed's style of silver/spellfire or that famous story of a powerful sorceress disintegrating an island.
That being said, my goal here is to list all the problems the D&D 3.x rules have trying to support a “narrative” approach to FR.
To end it, if you want to play Diablo in FR, D&D 3.x rules work fine, if not, you'll get some problems. House ruling fixes to those problem is not easy as it may seem. (It's what I do from the first days of 3E).
There are actually FR conversions for other settings my favorite is into the HERO system (http://www.herogames.com) and the conversion is http://www.yamoslair.com/frhero.html
[Edit= for those who don't know:)]
The Hero system is a point based system, where, you take the basic building blocks of the system and create, using modifiers, the finished product. And then you define the Effect, (for example a Fireball and Scintillating Sphere mechanically are identical, but the SFX are defined differently.)
This is also a classless system so you can have fighters with some magical ability, mages who can fight, etc. Everything is based off of total points and the point cost of the abilities.
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Edited by - shike on 27 Jun 2006 00:54:51 |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2006 : 01:10:41
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Thanks for that HERO conversion, I'll look at it.
I would do the same for my Burning Wheel conversion, but I would fear to run in copyright issues.
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shike
Seeker
USA
71 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2006 : 14:36:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
Thanks for that HERO conversion, I'll look at it.
I would do the same for my Burning Wheel conversion, but I would fear to run in copyright issues.
Here is a link list of other system to HERO conversions. http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23298 |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2006 : 17:11:08
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Ok Psionics doesn't seem to be much more interesting, I'll try a new one :
If it was not for "balance" and "all PHB races should be LA +0", how different would have been elf, gnome, halfling, half-orc, dwarf and half-elf?
Did some races lose much from 2E to 3.x for these reasons ?
If it wasn't for copyright issues, the sub-race of the halfling (not the ghostwise) living in Luiren could be finally named "hobbits"...
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Edited by - Skeptic on 29 Jun 2006 05:04:02 |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2006 : 17:45:05
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| Look in the Complete Book of Elves and the Cormanthyr supplement to see how Elves should be portrayed. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2006 : 17:58:27
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
Look in the Complete Book of Elves and the Cormanthyr supplement to see how Elves should be portrayed.
The problem with Complete Book of Elves is that 1) it's not FR specific 2) it's the only "Complete" book that added so much stuff to his race (vs of Dwarf and of Gnomes & Halflings).
I'll take a look to Cormanthyr. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2006 : 18:21:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
Look in the Complete Book of Elves and the Cormanthyr supplement to see how Elves should be portrayed.
The problem with Complete Book of Elves is that 1) it's not FR specific 2) it's the only "Complete" book that added so much stuff to his race (vs of Dwarf and of Gnomes & Halflings).
I'll take a look to Cormanthyr.
Even so, many of the things in the CBoE have been used in FR and Ed has even said he uses them. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2006 : 19:55:59
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| Do we know how Ed portrays halflings is in home campaign? More or less like hobbits? |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2006 : 19:58:46
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| If you find the old Five Shires gazetteer for the original D&D game you get a good look on Ed take on halflings. It was written for The Known World, but as I understand the halflings here are very like the ones in Forgotten Realms. |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2006 : 20:01:33
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| A bit more bloodthirsty than that. See 2004's Spin A Yarn-tale for instance. |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2006 : 05:02:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
If you find the old Five Shires gazetteer for the original D&D game you get a good look on Ed take on halflings. It was written for The Known World, but as I understand the halflings here are very like the ones in Forgotten Realms.
Did Ed do many others non-FR works like this ? (I know those famous Hell articles). |
Edited by - Skeptic on 29 Jun 2006 05:03:22 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2006 : 10:52:17
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I cant remember how many non-reams game products Ed has designed, the only one that comes to mind (and that I own) is The Five Shires. The Hell articles were Dragon material, and there were several by Ed that had to do with other themes than the Realms.
I have seen a complete bibliography of everything Ed has written, but I can not for the life of me remember where. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2006 : 11:13:41
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| He did SJR1 Lost Ships for the Spelljammer line, and wrote a Spelljammer article or two for Dragon. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2006 : 17:18:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
He did SJR1 Lost Ships for the Spelljammer line, and wrote a Spelljammer article or two for Dragon.
And some of the Zakhara material as well. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2006 : 10:57:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
If you find the old Five Shires gazetteer for the original D&D game you get a good look on Ed take on halflings. It was written for The Known World, but as I understand the halflings here are very like the ones in Forgotten Realms.
Did Ed do many others non-FR works like this ? (I know those famous Hell articles).
One or two of his earliest DRAGON articles aren't entirely Realms-focused, so yes.
EDIT: After looking at the third page of this scroll, I see Kuje has mentioned the articles I was thinking about  .
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 07 Jul 2006 10:58:48 |
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FR without D&D
