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zemd
Master of Realmslore
France
1103 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Mar 2003 : 22:26:06
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Well, in an other topic Bookwyrm and me were discussing about the relations between the mythologies (Celtics, Egyptian, ...) and Faerun.
So to keep the work of Alaundo easier i post a new topic 
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Edited by - zemd on 19 Mar 2003 22:29:11
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2003 : 23:11:57
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Ah, good job, Zemd! I was thinking of doing the same myself. I'm sure that I will be posting to this thread in the forseeable future. 
However, as Zemd has indicated, I have already spoken on this topic. It's someone else's turn. Remember, you can use this not only to talk about what you know, but also to ask questions. Want to find out if there's a monster you like in a "real" mythology? Ask! |
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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2003 : 09:23:03
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You'll find a lot of references to real world mythology in the Forgotten Realms (and D&D in general). Ed Greenwood used a lot of our RW history and mythology to give flavor to the realms. Sometimes twisting things, sometimes more or less copying 1 on 1.
In general D&D a huge amount of the monsters are creatures straight from the medieval, roman, greek and other mythologies. Medusa, Kirin are but two examples. |
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Echon
Senior Scribe
Denmark
422 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2003 : 12:16:46
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The borrowing of different races and monsters from various mythologies is fine by me and I actually think that the best monsters in (A)D&D are those that we know from history rather than those TSR/WotC made up.
However, two rip-offs in particular offended me, namely Yggdrasil, the Tree of Life, placed in the Outlands and Mount Olympia, the home of the Greed gods. One things that struck me as odd is that all these pantheons from earth seem to have been officially adopted, e.g. in the describtions of the outer planes Faerūnian powers are listed alongside gods from greek mythology, etc.
Not to forgot Elminster, the classical archmage that appear many places in history, such as Merlin, the creation of whom was inspired by Odin.
-Echon |
"If others had not been foolish, we should be so."
-William Blake |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2003 : 15:42:32
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Well put, and I agree with you. The best monsters/creatures are those they didn't really make up. Why bother, when you've got ready-made beastiaries to draw from? Humans have incredible imagination, and have created all sorts of explanation for things that go bump in the night.
By the way, Echon, I don't find anything wrong with using Yggdrasil, though I do prefer not to have Mount Olympus. If you ask me, standard Grecio-Roman mythology has been used sic ad nauseum. You should use lesser-known mythos.
One of my favorites for that is the (I believe it's spelled this way) tlincali, the scorpian man. That one's actually Summerian. |
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zemd
Master of Realmslore
France
1103 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2003 : 16:44:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Echon
[font=Times New Roman][size=3]The borrowing of different races and monsters from various mythologies is fine by me and I actually think that the best monsters in (A)D&D are those that we know from history rather than those TSR/WotC made up.
And i could use them in for my latin exams! |
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Rekindin
Acolyte
USA
43 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2003 : 16:50:59
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| The borrowing of different races and monsters from various mythologies is fine by me and I actually think that the best monsters in (A)D&D are those that we know from history rather than those TSR/WotC made up. |
Please let me be your good part of your day |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2003 : 17:06:01
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Tut-tut! No quoting without saying you're quoting! That's intellectual theft and copyright infringement.  |
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zemd
Master of Realmslore
France
1103 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2003 : 17:08:55
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I proudly quoted my sources: ROLE PLAYING GAMES.
Sometimes my teachers looked at me with frightenned faces... |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2003 : 17:34:19
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| Hehe. I'd have loved to see that one. |
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Leona
Acolyte
38 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2003 : 03:08:49
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| The one which irks me most was they borrowed Tyr from Norse Mythology, blinded him, and turned him into a god of law and justice when he once was the god of battles. |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2003 : 03:33:48
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| It wasn't much of a jump to a judge, actually. Yes, he was a god of war, but then all the male Norse gods were some sort of warrior. The important part was his adherence to honor, more so than any of the other gods. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2003 : 06:47:23
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My favourite "Ed Greenwood steal" (and one of the most obscure) comes from one of the old Creature Catalog articles in Dragon. Ed wrote up a new FR monster named 'the sind'. They are the marshwiggles from C S Lewis' world of Narnia (see "the Silver Chair").
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Minardil
Acolyte
Finland
18 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2003 : 08:02:25
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There are some connections between Realms and Finnish folk-lore called Kalevala. Mielikki in Kalevala is Lady of the Woods, pretty mauch like in Realms. She's also wife of Tapio, ruler of the forest (my real name is Tapio. Why isn't that to Realms too?).
Loviatar is also from Kalevala, where she was very evil person who unleashed many diseases upon world to kill people. I haven't seen other references in Kalevala... |
Can we not be friends? After all, our dust shall be equal in the end. |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2003 : 15:51:42
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
My favourite "Ed Greenwood steal" (and one of the most obscure) comes from one of the old Creature Catalog articles in Dragon. Ed wrote up a new FR monster named 'the sind'. They are the marshwiggles from C S Lewis' world of Narnia (see "the Silver Chair").
-- George Krashos
^_^ Puddleglum!  |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2003 : 16:46:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Leona
The one which irks me most was they borrowed Tyr from Norse Mythology, blinded him, and turned him into a god of law and justice when he once was the god of battles.
Don't be too upset at this Leona! He ALSO had one hand because Fenris the wolf but his hand off when the gods were tyring to bind him in chains. It was written in the myths that Tyr was the only god brave enough to feed Fenris (since vikings thought ANY man would lose in battle against a wolf).
TYR: From Forgotten Realms Boxed set 1st ed: "Tyr is a new faith appearing in the FR within the past thousand years. Tyr is likely the being of the same name found in Norse Mythos. Though no other power of that realm are present, and Tyr is portrayed as a god of justice and not war."
Tyr is a god of Justice, Tacitus the roman writer (journalist?) wrote that the Norse would leave him HUMAN sacrifices, in the pursuit of justice (what a great contradiction). BUT Mars was the god of war, and occasionally there were human sacrifices given to him. Because of this Tacitus and other Romans equated Tyr with Mars (Ares) Interesting. According to Deities and Demigods (Tyr is LG, Ares is CE)yet they were equated:) Anyone want to return to the Alignment scroll?
So Tyr WAS a god of JUSTICE and also a god of WAR. But one must remember.. Viking justice was a wee bit brutal.
Ok a list of other gods from Real World Mythos:
1. ALL of Mulhorandi (EVEN the stories!!!)
2. BHAAL was written in ancient myths around the Sumerian times. He wasa violent god but I have no idea if he was the Lord of Murder. OR even a god for that matter, I can't remember what book I read it in but he might of just been a king.
3. Ilmater apparently the god of suffering in the Finnish Stories and Myths.
4. Loviatar is the maiden of pain in the Finnish stories and Myths (as one scribe here already noted in another thread)
5. Mielikki The god of nature in the Finnish stories and Myths
6. Oghma the Celtic god of (vaguely) poetry and reading
7. Silvanus the GREEN man and essentially the head of the Celtic Panthoen
8. We cannot forget Tyche the ROMAN god of luck, that eventually split to form Tymora and Beshaba.
When studying the myths it is hard to assign a hierarchy to the gods of any pantheon except maybe the Greeks, as the other one has no serious lines drawn. THere seems to be a VERY loose Hierarchy with the Celtic gods. I think the lack of Hierarchy in the Faerun Pantheon is a good indication of some real world Pantheons.
I also do not know if some of the cultural "gods" can be considered gods. Minardil the sage of the Kavela can probably tell us ALOT more! PLEASE DO!!!
In the 1st edition publication Ed Greenwood states there is a large number of Finnish and Celtic deities indicating that there are portals to their realms in the Outerplanes.
You all know how much I LOVE SUNE, so here is something too Rile you up! The same publication says that SUNE is from the OLYMPIAN pantheon and may be...ATHENA The goddess of Wisdom?
I love that Ed Greenwood arranged the cosmology this way for it blends in PERFECT with my concept of all the worlds being part of a grand layered multiverse!
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
Edited by - Mournblade on 25 May 2003 17:26:43 |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2003 : 03:18:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
It was written in the myths that Tyr was the only god brave enough to feed Fenris (since vikings thought ANY man would lose in battle against a wolf).
Here's the version I first heard. The Asgard gods wanted to imprision Fenris, a giant wolf, but Fenris was so strong that they were having difficulty finding something that would hold him. They were trying to fool him by saying they were testing his strength. By the time they obtained some magical, darkalfin (gnomes or dwarves) -forged chains, Fenris was getting suspicious. He demanded that if it was really on the up-and-up, then Tyr, as the most honorable, had to hold his hand between his jaws. The rest you can figure out.
quote:
ALL of Mulhorandi (EVEN the stories!!!)
You're telling me! Couldn't they have mixed some things up, just for variety? Just taking it wholesale and sticking it in the Realms isn't exactly the largest stroke of imagination. I've got the same problem with Aztecs/Toltecs in Maztica and the Egyptians discribed in The Star of Cursrah. I don't have nearly as much of a problem with other types (such as the Celts of the Moonshaes) since there's more creativity there.
quote:
2. BHAAL was written in ancient myths around the Sumerian times. He wasa violent god but I have no idea if he was the Lord of Murder. OR even a god for that matter, I can't remember what book I read it in but he might of just been a king.
He was a god. He's even mentioned in the Bible. As for the murder bit, he's very famous in archeology as the focus of a very bloody religion. He was around as late as the early Roman era. However, he had been demoted to the status of a mere cult, mostly focused in Carthage.
That, actually, was the (official) reason for the Romans to attack and completely destroy that city. They even "sowed the ground with salt" to make sure that it wouldn't be fertile ground for a few years.
A lot of people thought that this was just an exageration, trumped up by the Romans as justification. However, sometime in the last century (the 20th was when archeological focus really got going) someone actually excavated a furnace-altar dedicated to Bhaal where they found the charred bones of dozens of human infants.
Go Romans. 
(Oh, by the way, does anyone know about a Celtic god of the same name? I don't know how it's spelled, but it sounds exactly the same. I heard it in a PBS show a few years back, and it's always stuck with me.)
quote:
7. Silvanus the GREEN man and essentially the head of the Celtic Panthoen
Who, according to some tales, was nowhere near as nice as the FR version. I'm pretty sure that's mostly from the Christians trying to show the evil in the pagan, Celtic religions. They did a lot of that in those areas. Instead of saying they aren't real, Jesus is better, we're more fun, etc, like they're supposed to do, they painted most of the Celtic deities (at least the male ones, anyway) as Aspects Of The Devil. 
As a result, very little archeological evidence remains for many of them, even when you take into acount the scarcity of literacy in that area. Even the Roman accounts are hard to find. Did you know that the image of Satan as a hooved, horned, and tailed monster is actually from the Celts of Britan and Ireland? They were so successful about spreading that image as Extreme Evil that we not only have no record of what this guy's name was, we don't even know what he stood for! He could have been an evil guy, but for all we know he could have been a male fertility god.
quote:
8. We cannot forget Tyche the ROMAN god of luck, that eventually split to form Tymora and Beshaba.
Indeed not. Though I prefer to think of her as Greek -- that's where 99.9% of Roman mythology came from. I didn't know that they kept the name, though. Usually the names changed.
I suppose I'm going to have to break down and study Greek/Roman mythology in more depth. I usually do everything else first, though; since [i]everyone[i] does Classical mythology, I want to pay attention to other things.
quote:
I love that Ed Greenwood arranged the cosmology this way for it blends in PERFECT with my concept of all the worlds being part of a grand layered multiverse!
Indeed! Let the fun commence! |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2003 : 03:24:07
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Oh, and here's another thing that I just remembered, that I don't believe anyone's said yet (or not explicitly):
Yggdrasil, the World Tree, the tree on which all planes of existance are suspended. As I recall, there's a World Tree somewhere in D&D. (Is it Planescape? I only ran into it in the Undermountain modual someone made and put on this site.)
There's also the Child of Yggdrasil, in Tangled Webs. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2003 : 07:16:03
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Your are correct Bookwyrm. The World Tree is from the Planescape Campaign Setting.
Yggdrasil, the World Tree, or World Ash is a gigantic plane-spanning tree. It's base lies on the first layer of the plane of Ysgard, but it's branches, roots and leaves spread throughout the entirety of all the realms and layers of the planes. It is also said that some branches of the World Tree extend far enough into some Material Planes. Yggdrasil is considered to be one of the four main and best known planar pathways.
This information is summarised from the Planewalker's Handbook
Good learning...
- The Sage of Perth: For all your Realms Lore needs
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unixx
Acolyte
12 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2003 : 10:29:29
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| hey i got a question. if druids can travel through trees and yggdrasil touches all planes, and druid found the tree could they tavel to any plane they wanted? uh,*goes cross eyed* i think that one might keep me up awhile. |
Unixx. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2003 : 10:54:32
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It should be remembered that the World Tree is really not an actual tree in the traditional sense, but rather a series of planar portals and pathways being part of a great tree, much like the River Styx and River Oceanus, they are both in actuality planar pathways for journeys across the myriad planes, merged with the actual phenomenon they represent.
The Planewalker's Handbook states clearly that anybody can use the World Tree to travel to any plane that the World Tree has portals to, but advises that those unknowledgeable about how the Tree's portals work, should seek the help of guides.
All travel on the World Tree occurs on the outside, and across the huge branches and roots, large enough for PC's to climb on as well
It has also been said, that no one has ever recorded or traced all the different paths that the Tree has.
Good learning...
- The Sage of Perth: For all your Realms Lore needs
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2003 : 03:33:23
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| I trust that everyone knows that Yggdrasil is the World tree from Norse Mythology. If this is the case, then shouldn't there exist a Norse presence in the campaign world? Currently in my FR campaign, Thor has heard of Faerun from TYR and is currently attempting to Usurp Part of Talos' portfolio of Storms. The church of Tyr is supporting this in attempt to reduce Talos's power. |
A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2003 : 05:09:36
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Didn't I say that it was from Norse mythology?
[Bookwyrm turns back a page to check.]
 Heh. Um, oops?
Mournblade, do you have any of this stuff on a file, and if so can I look at it? I love that sort of thing. Shake 'em up and see what comes out! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2003 : 07:11:39
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Yes Mournblade, I was aware of the connection between the D&D World Tree and the mythological Yggdrasil from Norse mythology. In the Planewalker's Handbook, I recall that it mentions something of this nature, describing the World Tree as belonging to a Norse pantheon from the Outer Planes, or an alternate Prime Material Plane. There's more to it than that, but since I'm at work, I don't have access to the book. I'll check when I get home and try and post some details.
Also, I would have to agree with Bookwyrm. I would also appreciate any material on file that you may have, if your willing to share it. I regularly use mythological aspects in many of my D&D games regardless of the setting. One of my favorite books to use, is the Dictionary of Mythological Beasts, I can't remember the author.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2003 : 10:11:35
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Bookwyrm, you may wish to pick up the 2e FR game accessory Demi-human Deities for some great mythological information concerning the deities for the others race of the Realms. Also you can download the 2e Legends & Lore here, it's a great work that combines real-world mythology to the D&D game. Here's the description posted on the WotC website -
There comes a desperate moment when every hero looks skyward in search of divine favor, when he raises his arms to the heavens and calls upon the cruel fates to spare his life. Who hears him? Legends & Lore is a compendium of possible answers. It provides AD&D game statistics and role-playing details for dozens of deities from the pantheons of eleven different cultures. Included in this book are sections on the mythoi of the American Indians, Aztecs, Celts, Chinese, Egyptians, Greeks, Indians, Japanese, and Norse peoples. In addition, there are sections detailing the tales of King Arthur and the gods of Fritz Leiber's Nehwon.
Good learning...
- The Sage of Perth: For all your Realms Lore needs
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2003 : 22:03:02
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Currently I am working on the campaign involving Thor. Basically EVERY druid on the planet knows SOMETHING is weird. For example when there are storms, the Druids sense something is amiss, but it is not a feeling of storms being more violent or evil, just that the storms are 'struggling' in some way, as if the lightning does not 'know' where to strike. The druids can sense that each thunderbolt is a protest to something. This is due to Thor's influence slowly seeping in through the planes. Talos priests are having their damage dice reduced by 1 on all electricity spells. They don't QUITE notice it, but they can tell something is not right. Currently there are priests of THOR on Faerun who are secretive but actually getting power from TYR. There is a new race of Mountain Dwarves (well exactly the same RACE, just from a different place) who worship THor as well. If this all falls to fruition, then Talos will be reduced in power, and THor will come in as a god of Deity rank 16 just as he is in the Deities and Demigods. Thor is Vying for the portfolio of Thunder, Lightning, and Storms, and he is going to attempt to add a portfolio as well, formerly held by his son Magni...Strength. Talos will retain Destruction and Violence, rebellion, etcetera, he will just lose storms. I am currently trying to figure out how the OTHER gods feel about it. Just because a god is good does not mean they will support Thor. When summer comes and I am not working as much this should all get fleshed out:)
I did this once before with a god from Michael Moorcock's Elric. Arioch attempted to enter the realms as God of Chaos and completely DESTROY Talos. However, the Players influence caused some of Arioch's agents to get defeated, and Talos defeated Arioch, forever banishing him from the Realms. The players did not care either way, because both deities were Chaotic Evil. But they were fighting for TAlos because they already knew how to deal with that evil. One Paladin in the group actually WORKED with some Priests of Talos to ward off Arioch. I don't have electronics on this, unfortunately. As of now I am putting my new stuff on disc, but my campaign goes back too 1988, so I don't have them all on file.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2003 : 07:16:55
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This sounds great Mournblade, there are a lot of possibilities here.
It seems as though Thor is about to be either a much more significant power in the Realms, or a much more serious threat. You could go either way. I don't think alot of the Realms pantheon will enjoy the fundamental shift in power that you are detailing. It will definitely be interesting to see whether or not this 'power-grab' may presage a struggle for dominance among the pantheon, a gods' war for lack of a better term.
Just as a side note - in the Planescape campaign setting A DM Guide to the Planes, it makes mention of the fact that both Thor and Loki actually rival Odin in terms of power, but the total strength and balance the three gods represent is needed to preserve their realm within Ysgard's physical chaos. I wonder what effect Thor gaining a quota of extra power from gaining a new portfolio will have on the balance of power holding Ysgard together?. Interesting.
If you are planning to make notes, I would be interested to hear how the campaign plays out, it sounds very interesting.
Good learning...
- The Sage of Perth: For all your Realms Lore needs
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Tombo
Seeker
56 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2003 : 19:29:56
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| I noticed nobody had anything to say about AO. I'm guessing that his name was derived from "The Alpha and the Omega". In the bible, God is referred to in this way. It means the first and the last. |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2003 : 00:45:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Tombo
I noticed nobody had anything to say about AO. I'm guessing that his name was derived from "The Alpha and the Omega". In the bible, God is referred to in this way. It means the first and the last.
WOW I NEVER thought of that! That is interesting I wonder if what you say IS true? That is a great twist, kind of like Illuvatar form the Silmarillion. Hmmm thanks TOmbo, you give us something to Ponder Once again!!!
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2003 : 04:19:21
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Sage if THOR is successful in usurping part of Faerun I would not have it affect his ASGARD status. I kind of take into account that gods have aspects on different planes that are all self aware and independent but still one being. Tyr's Divine rank is 15 according to MIDGARD mythology, and Divine Rank 18 According to Realms Cosmology. If THor enters the realm, he will not decrease in power and will retain his Divine rank of 18 making him more powerful than Talos but on par with tyr. In realms cosmology Tyr and Thor would be equal, whereas in Asgard THOR is Clearly superior. I am having trouble explaining this, but when they are in Odin's meadhall, Thor will be Tyr's superior, but when the gods of the realms are meeting, Thor and Tyr are equals, and Tyr will be treated as such.
I love the fantasy cosmologies, they are so abstract and open to interpretation.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2003 : 06:52:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
quote:
Originally posted by Tombo
I noticed nobody had anything to say about AO. I'm guessing that his name was derived from "The Alpha and the Omega". In the bible, God is referred to in this way. It means the first and the last.
WOW I NEVER thought of that! That is interesting I wonder if what you say IS true? That is a great twist, kind of like Illuvatar form the Silmarillion. Hmmm thanks TOmbo, you give us something to Ponder Once again!!!
Um . . . it's been observed before on here, by a chap named Bellua Aeneus Lacerta. (I love that name -- it's actually a riddle, so to speak.)
[Bookwyrm does a little rumaging, then pops back up with a scroll.] Ah, yes, here it is.
By the way, Tombo -- it doesn't actually mean "first and last." It's a metaphor. It's same as saying "A to Z" -- they were the equivalents to that in the Greek alphabet. (The word for which we also get from the same system, a combination of "alpha" and "beta.") It was used in that way because at the time of Christ, the "language of learning" was Greek, and was known by anyone who was someone; same as the sophisticated (which, ironically, means the "wise ones") used to learn French as a matter of course.
Oh, and Sage, I have those. (Courtesy of Artalis, of course. Incidentally, is anyone getting tired of me singing his praises? ) The thing is, he sent me so much, I'm skipping back and forth trying to get it all. It's typical of me -- trying to learn it all right away. Besides, I've got to catch up to the rest of you all. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
Edited by - Bookwyrm on 29 May 2003 07:01:12 |
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Faerun / Mythologies
