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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Jun 2006 : 15:48:48
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Maybe I am in the wrong section (again!) so forgive me mods (I know you want to  )
A friend of mine recently told me an interesting snippet about our own history: the Romans and Greeks had the skill to advance technologically, but they didn't use it because they saw no need for it. (hether that's really true, one should ask a historian)
In the Realms it appears as if the gods limit the uses of technology. I always thought this 'crutch' to be more than a little illogical an explanation. If the people of the Realms just saw no point in advancing technology any further, since manpower can do almost anything and the expressed need for these items is not there...why bother? This seems to me a more 'logical' approach.
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Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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keijemon
Acolyte
49 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2006 : 18:55:28
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More acurate assessment of Romans would be that they did advance technologically, but because en mass, the people weren't educated enough to use the machines the brighter minds designed, it limited their use, and thereby stunted advancement. It's the fault of their very narrow education system (that advocated philosophy, laguages, art, etc over machine use and other engineering sciences).
And FR is on Pause both technologically and magically... technology isn't really more gimped than magic, for the time period it is designed to represent. I mean look at the elves, tens of thousands of years and when they speak of powerful items, it's something from the long long ago, and burried in some deep crypt, not something that's latest greatest, on the bleeding edge of research.
Pathetic. |
The greatest trick Ao ever pulled, is convincing Toril he didn't exist. |
Edited by - keijemon on 19 Jun 2006 19:16:48 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2006 : 19:25:50
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I don't think you can blame it on the education system and the roman engineers were generally better than those one found until the late renaissance/early modern times. It is more a result of the general dynamics of the society and the rulers priorities.
Just some loose thoughts on the subject, I am absolutely no expert on technology and my history is a little rusty. I don't have that much of a problem with the realms not going forward technologically, several of earths civilizations went for a thousand years and more without great changes on the technical front. In a world were magic is much of the problem-solver and the innovations traditionally come from the elves and dwarfs, has there really developed a system of invention and development? If you allso say that the gods bring the changes and ideas into the world it becomes even harder. |
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keijemon
Acolyte
49 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2006 : 21:24:43
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| For a failure of education you need look no father than to notice that Roman engineers build increadible war machines and siege engines, but precisely due to their poor education on this subject Legions at large barely ever used them (they actually had a real internally horse powered tank, something that is completely forgot by history books... google it, you won't find it, that's how poorly it was used), limiting themselves to the simplest of machinery and letting the good stuff rust and/or rot. When your inventions are so utterly unsuded, that is a huge disincentive to keep going. |
The greatest trick Ao ever pulled, is convincing Toril he didn't exist. |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2006 : 23:25:42
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| And note that the ban on advanced technology isn't made by the Gods; it simply Is. It just functions. Call it the Physics of Faerun. :) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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keijemon
Acolyte
49 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2006 : 03:01:34
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| about bans (and sorry for minor derailing here) though mystra banned spells over lvl9 for weave users, why is it that clerics are affected? don't they get power for spells directly from the gods and not from the weave (which is supposed to merely provide mortals with straight access to magic without gods)? |
The greatest trick Ao ever pulled, is convincing Toril he didn't exist. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2006 : 03:19:55
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quote:
Originally posted by keijemon
about bans (and sorry for minor derailing here) though mystra banned spells over lvl9 for weave users, why is it that clerics are affected? don't they get power for spells directly from the gods and not from the weave (which is supposed to merely provide mortals with straight access to magic without gods)?
Divine magic is still filtered through the Weave or Shadow Weave according to all the current sourcebooks. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 20 Jun 2006 03:20:17 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2006 : 08:19:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Keijemon
For a failure of education you need look no father than to notice that Roman engineers build increadible war machines and siege engines, but precisely due to their poor education on this subject Legions at large barely ever used them (they actually had a real internally horse powered tank, something that is completely forgot by history books... google it, you won't find it, that's how poorly it was used), limiting themselves to the simplest of machinery and letting the good stuff rust and/or rot. When your inventions are so utterly unsuded, that is a huge disincentive to keep going.
This is not the place for a long discussion about roman technology, but I think that if you look at the roman development of building techniques, in architecture, plumbing, aqueducts etc, you can not say that they were ineffective if they saw the use for change.
As known as the Romans are for engineering, they were still a slave-based society which always hinder change as cheap labour is plentiful. As the upper classes lost interest in society and with the roman arrogance that evolved it was more of a lack of support for the new thinkers than a lack of education.
When it concerns siege machines, there has always been an under use of these in all times as even with the machines the cost of a storming for the attacker is dreadful. The long siege was always a more used method of gaining access to a enemy city. The Romans also made themselves more and more dependent on mercenary forces that, as you point out, did not have the knowledge to use the war machines. |
Edited by - Jorkens on 21 Jun 2006 14:20:00 |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2006 : 11:50:10
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Maybe it's just that I want things to be logical within themselves. Thus the entire thread.
To merely say 'tis thus doesn't cut it for me, I always wanna know why... |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2006 : 13:55:46
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But, lets turn it around; why should the realms evolve technologically? There are plenty of cultures that kept the same technological level for millenia s, so why not find the arguments that say that the Realms should keep on evolving?
It would also be an experiment in logic, would it not? |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2006 : 14:09:34
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My thinking exactly...
We should look for a reason why they haven't evolved... since magic isn't the every day household appliance electricity provides us with we need to look for some 'historical' reasons. The gods' decree doesn't really do it for me. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2006 : 14:14:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
We should look for a reason why they haven't evolved... since magic isn't the every day household appliance electricity provides us with we need to look for some 'historical' reasons. The gods' decree doesn't really do it for me.
No, I mean the opposite; why should they have evolved. Turn the question around and try to find the answer for that. |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2006 : 02:12:28
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| Wouldn't it be possible to have technology as a form of magic through the term "Technomancy"? |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2006 : 03:02:34
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There is the question indeed why tech would be supported with money.
Power plants to produce light, heat and machines can be replaced by light spells, fire spells and goluems (or other constructs or magical devices). A magic poor country indeed would do what reseaqch they could to duplicate magic. However a magic poor society would exist on the margin of existance, there would be no plant growth to increase crops, there will not be magic defeneses from spell casters and so on. Magic that works reaible (for the most part) eliminates the drive to find another way to do things.
A level of mundance tech is required, the mage can not enchant that blade made by mundane hands. Food does need to be planted, proteted from birds, horses are needed to draw carts and so on. This because only an elite (good dice rolls) can weild magic effectively.
So what is achieved is a balance, RR perhaps not so designed, seeks to strike a balance between what magic does and what mundane tech is required to balance the world. One can argue that there will be some tech improvements entering the realms. Look to tinker gnomes as one posible resource, but even they use some magic.
FR tech of magic poor areas would by nessessity be designed to prevent magic rich adventurers from raiding them. They could struggle admists the assults of the looters to provide continued light on the streets by use of wires, vacumn, and glass (generatoring power plant, poles and so on, all subject to attack and more costly to produce and protect then hiring a mage).
I do not see the deities forbiding advance, after all there are spell jammers, I rather see it as a economic function of the world.
The fact that I know the current and in general past rules from every D&D product does not have a believeable economy belongs in the RW, in FR it works even if mortals can not understand it. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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CarolinaPaladin
Acolyte
USA
13 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2006 : 14:48:17
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I think Mystara gives us a good idea about technology. According to what I've read, in Mystara's history, some human civilizations had greatly advanced technology (Star Wars-like technology), but their technology advanced too much and was damaged by the strong magical energies of the world, causing the technology to blow up. This might work in FR. For example, adventurers could discover ruins of an unknown human civilization that had advanced technology (21st century technology) but advanced too quickly and their technology got out of hand causing their civilization to collapse. The adventurers find a few of the advanced technology these humans have, but are unsure how they work (imagine an elven wizard trying to figure out how a computer or a car worked, a dwarf wondering how these ancient humans could get heavy metal machines to fly without the use of magic). Word of the discovery travels fast, creating awe, wonder, and fear everywhere. The Red Wizards, afraid of losing their power, decide to destroy this ancient technology. The Zhents want to gain control of the technology in order to better aid their plots. The Harpers want the technology buried. The Moonstars want to use the technology to aid the forces of good. Then, the adventurers find and awaken a human frozen in suspended animation. This human reveals how the technology works and wants to rebuild his civilization. Now the adventurers have to protect not only the lost technology, but also the ancient humans (the ancient human explains that other humans are sleeping in suspended animation) from almost every group in the Realms.
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I have not yet begun to adventure! |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2006 : 18:28:46
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| Modern tech doesn't work in FR if it runs on electric and circuits, etc, so says the 1e and 2e campaign box sets. The physics of the world/sphere don't allow it to function. Gun powder doesn't either, which is why the world has magical smoke powder. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2006 : 18:50:58
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I have nothing against the Mystaran version in Mystara, but the same cyclic motion of progress-regress in Faerun would drastically change both the feel and the history of the Realms. Mystaras Immortals and magic also has another role than in the realms and (I could be wrong, my Known World is a little rusty) would react differently to a technological development. As fun as Mystara is, one of the great parts of the world is its at time really confusing and whimsical matching and many of these would seem out of place in the realms, among them the technological parts.
In my opinion I should say. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31777 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2006 : 11:05:50
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Ed has touched on this subject once or twice. I'd recommend any scribe with an interest in "tech in FR" read through the relevant replies in both '04 and '05.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 07 Jul 2006 11:06:24 |
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FridayThe13th
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2006 : 13:49:12
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| Well, there is Spelljammer. Which uses magic to build spaceships. I dunno if Spelljammer is consitered canon in FR anymore but there might still be some ships orbiting Realmspace. |
"The Lady of Pain? You mean Loviatar runs this place?"
-- Torilian Prime
"You guys should seriously rename yourselves The Horny Society, you popularity would soar."
-- A miscillaneous Kender to a member of the Horned Society
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31777 Posts |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2006 : 01:02:35
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| Without giving anything away, we may have seen a form of it in Blackstaff. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2006 : 03:20:06
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quote:
Originally posted by FridayThe13th
Well, there is Spelljammer. Which uses magic to build spaceships. I dunno if Spelljammer is consitered canon in FR anymore but there might still be some ships orbiting Realmspace.
It really doesn't have anything to do with technology... Arcane space doesn't even conform to the same rules as real-world outer space. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2006 : 05:09:22
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| A spelljammer also makes an appearance in Final Gate. |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2006 : 05:19:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
A spelljammer also makes an appearance in Final Gate.
Really? Where in the book? I just finished that book last week, and I'm drawing a total blank on their being any spelljammers in there... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2006 : 05:26:15
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their was the ship that the queen visited Severil at the pool of Yeven (sp?), but I would not consider that to be a spelljammer ship.
edited for a correction: the queen met Severil at Semberholme, in a white winged ship (a ship of evermeet it was called, pages 161 to 163 describe the encounter of the final gate) |
Edited by - scererar on 17 Jul 2006 05:40:38 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2006 : 05:58:44
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| Yeah... While it does fly, not all flying ships are spelljammers. This one, in fact, seemed linked to the moonlight... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 02:01:51
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In the novel The Radiant Dragon by Elaine Cunningham it is described how Amalruil saw The Spelljammer over Evermeet as a young girl. She has been fascinated by Spelljammers ever since. So much so that she invited the Elven Imperial Fleet to found a base on Evermeet after she became queen.
This, coupled with Rich's brief mention on wildspace elves earlier in the Last Mystal trilogy, suggests to me that Mr. Baker did indeed intend this to be a Spelljammer. We could always ask him I suppose. |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 03:11:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
This, coupled with Rich's brief mention on wildspace elves earlier in the Last Mystal trilogy
When was that? I'm jogging my memory but can't recall the reference.
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 04:57:37
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quote:
Farthest Reach p.48
"I've never heard of star elves before," Ilsevele said. "A kindred of the People who died out long ago? Or maybe he is referring to elves who came to this world from another world? Some of Evermeet's folk are descended from elves who sailed the Sea of Night in flying ships."
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 05:11:17
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OK, thanks. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Technology
