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coach
Senior Scribe
USA
479 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Aug 2010 : 03:47:36
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| and even another reference to why i think the Titan city was located in the Cold Lands is that is also where Othea manifested herself as a large mountain |
Bloodstone Lands Sage |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2010 : 04:35:50
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quote:
"The city of Gharreil, seat of the Satrap of the Great Glacier, loyal servant of the Emperor of Jhothûn. May the qorrash smile upon it and nurture its mighty works, and continue to favor all of Jhothûn. Let no thieves or heretics enter this gate, for both suffer death in this city."
What in the nine hells!?
Satrap???
And what in the blue blazes (wow...looking back blue blazes has a whole new meaning in the FR!)...what in the blue blazes is qorrash??? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Stormlord
Acolyte
USA
15 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2010 : 06:40:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
What in the nine hells!?
Satrap???
And what in the blue blazes (wow...looking back blue blazes has a whole new meaning in the FR!)...what in the blue blazes is qorrash???
Greetings,
They are distant relatives of the djinn, qorrash (singular qorrashi) are elemental spirits of cold and ice. This information may be found in Frostburn (pg. 131) or here at the Wizard's website. |
Edited by - Stormlord on 11 Aug 2010 06:58:08 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2010 : 07:09:04
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Why in the hell would the Titans and/or Giants have anything to do with them?
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The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Kyrene
Senior Scribe
South Africa
757 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2010 : 09:38:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
"The city of Gharreil, seat of the Satrap of the Great Glacier, loyal servant of the Emperor of Jhothûn. May the qorrash smile upon it and nurture its mighty works, and continue to favor all of Jhothûn. Let no thieves or heretics enter this gate, for both suffer death in this city."
What in the nine hells!?
Satrap???
I asked Ed previously regarding satraps in Calimshan, to whit:
“satrap” – Alzhedo:- the lawful or legitimate governor or ruler of a province or area in Calimshan; a Calishite term for a frontier bandit lord (what those in northerly areas would call a “robber baron”) since such individuals almost always style themselves as, or try to claim or proclaim themselves as the legitimate version of the term (So saith Ed - December 19, 2005; So saith Ed - May 23, 2010)
I can only assume that this "Satrap" mentioned was a governor of Jhothûn, thus Gharreil being an outpost in the Great Glacier (his full title being "Satrap of the Great Glacier"). Now, as to how this relates to the location of Voninheim I can't help with that. |
Lost for words? Find them in the Glossary of Phrases, Sayings & Words of the Realms
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Kyrene
Senior Scribe
South Africa
757 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2010 : 09:59:28
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The last article in that series has this to say:quote:
The portal leading to the Sea of Moving Ice stands on the west side of the tower, surrounded by an inscription reading, "The city of Karffbadh, seat of the Satrap of the Moving Ice, loyal servant of the Emperor of Jhothûn. May the qorrash smile upon it and nurture its mighty works, and keep the Satrap firm in loyalty. From thence shall the power of the Emperor extend to the west."
The portal leading to the High Ice stands on the south side of the tower. Its inscription reads, "The city of Choshein, seat of the Satrap of the High Ice, loyal servant of the Emperor of Jhothûn. May the qorrash smile upon it and nurture its mighty works, and keep the Satrap firm in loyalty. From thence shall the power of the Emperor extend to the south."
The portal leading to the Great Glacier stands on the east side of the tower, and its inscription is nearly identical to that outside the gate of Gharreil: "The city of Gharreil, seat of the Satrap of the Great Glacier, loyal servant of the Emperor of Jhothûn. May the qorrash smile upon it and nurture its mighty works, and keep the Satrap firm in loyalty. From thence shall the power of the Emperor extend to the east."
So we have the cities of Karffbadh (in the west), Choshein (in the south) and Gharreil (in the east) and of course Jhothûn itself, but if any of them even relate to Voninheim I don't know. Giant lore is not my strongpoint. |
Lost for words? Find them in the Glossary of Phrases, Sayings & Words of the Realms
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2010 : 14:50:00
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Additionally, Demihuman Deities notes that Hanali is served by titans.
I know I'm kinda off the way the thread is going now, but I noted no one commented this statement, made back in 2006 by the Sage. Just wanted to remember that Hanali can be served by titans that live in other planes, outside the Realms. She's probably served by titans in Arvandor. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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coach
Senior Scribe
USA
479 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2010 : 17:05:31
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| another reason i think it is still buried under the GG is that if it was in the Hartsvale area and the GG receded why hasn't it been rediscovered? |
Bloodstone Lands Sage |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2010 : 18:21:32
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quote:
Originally posted by coach
another reason i think it is still buried under the GG is that if it was in the Hartsvale area and the GG receded why hasn't it been rediscovered?
I think I agree...I think it is still buried under the Great Glacier...but perhaps it won't be long before it is uncovered. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2010 : 05:40:20
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DOH!
The first Titan mentioned in Faerun kills the Batrachi leader, and his name is Omo.
Yet, Annam and Othea don't have their first children until 1500 years later. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2010 : 00:45:44
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However, to move the Titan's capital out of Hartsvale negates the entire story-arc of the Twilight Giants trilogy, and most-especially the last book, the Titan of Twilight.
Lanaxis is trapped within Voninheim, which is in modern-day Twilight Vale, and he purposely leaves twilight Vale to capture Hartsvale's queen, thus activating the curse and negating his own immortality in the process. The Vale is called 'Twilight' because it exists within the shadow of Othea - which means her mountain-manifestation is also within Hartsvale.
Which is why that trilogy screwed the pooch in so many ways, and why it could have been fixed somewhat, if they hadn't placed Hartsvale on the damn 3e Silver Marches map. I could have tweaked things so it was at least above Anauroch, but no such luck now.
The only explanation is that EVERYTHING above The North/Thar/Demon Lands was once covered by Ulutiu's glacier, THE GLACIER mentioned in giantish tales, and The Great Glacier (Pelvuria) is just the eastern remnant of that. Since the Giantcraft source says that entire region was once Ostoria, and we know the glacier eventually covered Ostoria (including, finally, Voninheim), we are just splitting hairs here. The current 'Great Glacier' is not necessarily the same exact region as the one from the myths (which was MUCH larger). By the same token, the Giantcraft source also states that ALL of the lands above Faerûn are 'The Cold Lands', not just those in the east.
I would chalk this whole misunderstanding up to the original giantish terminology for certain regions as opposed to the modern (human) terminology which only incorporates a small portion of what the Giantish terms did (which makes sense, given the size differences of the two).
Which of course does not preclude the fact that Voninheim was in Hartsvale, otherwise you need to disregard the entire trilogy.
As for the other thing, thats an easy one. The Qorrash were minions of the Titans, and of-course they would refer to the giant leader by an equivalent term of respect in their own language - a satrap. As to why these elemental beings would be found with titans... I think we need to go back to REAL Titans. One of the few things I approved of in the Disney version of Hercules was the personification of the Titans as 'forces of nature'; Elder Titans are/were Primordials - the living embodiments of the forces they represented.
Ergo, I suggest you go with what someone had suggested earlier - Annam's offspring was a True Titan, and his offspring would have been terrestrial titans - those 'humongous humans' of D&D fame. The Qorrash were summoned by Lanaxis (or possibly some other True Titan we don't know about), because it is their right to do so, and they served Ostoria, or at least Choshein, and followed the directives of the other giants there as per their orders from their summoner.
You could even go so far as to say Choshein was the capital of Ostoria, and Voninheim was the capital of the titan region of Ostoria - each brother ruled a seperate province. Since the Titan - Lanaxis - was the de-facto leader of the Giant sons of Annam, orders could have come down from him from Voninheim, but the day-to-day running of the empire itself was directed from Choshein. Its not unheard of for countries to have two capitals, especially in The East (just as we in the states have two leaders to govern foreign affairs and domestic).
Do I think that is a perfect solution? Absolutely not... but the giant history has become so garbled, that each person who has tried to add to it just made matters much worse (including those erroneous entries in the GHotR).
On the other hand, it seems as if there are two Separate Ostorias - the one from ancient history, and a much more recent (and horribly reduced) version in more recent times. Perhaps some remnant of the original realm survived up to a thousand years ago (thinking about the Ogres of Thar now), made possible by the Netherease (or something else) somehow warming the region up (and splitting the Glacier in half), allowing Thar, The Ride, the Frozen Forest, etc.. to all stay un-frozen and habitable.
The Netherese also had some history of fighting Giants, and Cloud & Storm Giants were present in the Cloud Kingdom above the Stonelands, so it appears that the Giants had a kingdom, perhaps hidden from human and demi-human knowledge, up until recently. I site the Serpent kingdom of Najara as a precedent, which lies well within human lands, without any humans even being aware of it. It is entirely possible, that if the giants lived in very remote regions (as they are wont to do), they could have considered themselves a unified kingdom, even if the various settlements were hundreds upon hundreds of miles apart - such distances would seem fairly trivial to giants.
If that were the case, and the Giants still felt somewhat unified until only a handful of centuries ago, then perhaps Choshein was a second capital built after Voninheim succumbed to the ice.
EDIT: I will re-read Twilight in Realms of Infamy tonight and see if I can find another 'out' for us. That story covers everything from Othea's affair to the betrayal of Lanaxis and death of his brothers and Othea. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 24 Aug 2010 00:53:50 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2010 : 01:28:38
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| I'm leaning to the fact that the "Great Glacier" was once considered much greater by all involved...and smaller parts of it were later called other names after breaking away. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2010 : 19:48:48
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An out!!!
pg. 209, Realms of Infamy-quote:
"It had been thousands of years since Othea had sent their father away, but even lacking Annam's guidance, Ostoria had grown large and powerful. It stretched so far that in two tendays that Lanaxis could not walk from one end to the other. The empire extended almost as far southward, to kingdoms where humans and dwarves were rising. Each race of giants held dominion over one area of this vast realm, and so the sons of Annam were scattered far and wide."
Lanaxis' home was called Bleak Palace (why would ANYONE name their home that? ).
So, the Palace in Twilight Vale is NOT Voninheim, but Lanaxis' own private residence, as I theorized.
We also have proof now that dwarves and humans were around and at least semi-civilized while Ostoria still existed.
Here is a quick mock-up of how things are/were -
Ostoria and the great Glacier
No location is giving for Gharreil, which was the 'capitol' of Jhothûn. Giving the word 'Jhothûn', I would hazard to guess that it refers to the frost-Giant realm of Lanaxis' brother, Ottar (Just as Lanaxis would have been a true Titan, Ottar would have been a Jotun). It also makes more sense for it t be connected to the frost Giants specifically, given the Qorrash presence.
All that light blue would have been 'The Great Glacier' of giantish folklore, and the 'pink-afied' area is my conjecture on the borders of Ostoria at it's height. All of it - Ostoria and the great Glacier - would be considered 'the Cold lands' by the Giants. Note I have given them Sea ports on both coasts (massive ships of giant proportions have been found in Faerûn). My idea for Ulutiu's landing-place comes from the fact that that is the center of the greater Glacier in the north, and the spot I think would make for a good Voninheim is the center of Ostoria (both conjecture - this is a working model); a GM can place it anywhere he likes.
The next step would be to figure out where each of the Annam's sons had their realms - for instance, I think the region around Mount Ghaethluntar would make an excellent spot for Masud and his Fire giants.
Also keep in mind that I have not properly 'squashed' this whole region - it is far enough north where the top portions of that map should be pinched together by about a 1/3. That makes it more manageable, while at the same time keeping it within the boundaries of that passage I quoted above. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 24 Aug 2010 19:50:20 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2010 : 20:32:15
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A thought: Ulutiu's Glacier is on the modern great glacier; the area you have as Pelvuria.
Also, it states in the Great Glacier book that Ulutiu's Necklace vents heat into the Novularond Mountains via a passage that runs from beneath the mountains through a conduit to beneath the Lugalpgotak Sea where the necklace rests.
Ulutiu rests beneath the Lugalpgotak Sea near the center of the "modern" Great Glacier. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2010 : 20:59:12
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The problem with that is that other sources say that the glacier formed by Ulutiu's 'necklace' (which wasn't a necklace at all, BTW) grew south to overwhelm Ostoria.
Having Pelvuria centralized to the original glacier doesn't really work for me. I would rather that the Ugl-whatever (I hate those Inuit names!!!) myths about Ulutiu are really about the greater, more ancient glacier of which Pelvuria is only a small part. Since the ginatish and Inuit myths do not mesh 100%, I would prefer to favor the giantish ones (since there are written records that corroborate them, by at least three races).
Let me play with it a bit more - unfortunately not going to be home again the next few days, so it will be awhile. There was also a peninsula where the Jotun kingdom was (its in that online Portal article) which isn't evident on newer maps - I will need to do some sort of historic one with a more accurate coast, perhaps depicting the various Giant kingdom, and take into account the warping of the map. If I stretch Ostoria further east (and there are giants in the North of Kara-Tur) to include most of the Great ice sea (which makes sense), I can perhaps relocate the center of the original glacier.
Only problem is, we have evidence that the last of the giant kingdom (Gharreil?) only fell about a thousand years ago. The stuff concerning Netheril and giants fits rather well (as does the Cloud Kingdom material), but if we stretch things east I am going to have to re-think quite a bit of the history of the Taan.
Now that I am thinking on this, that might actually work-out for the best....
Hmmmmm.....
I always thought that a Krakentoa looked liked the result of a Titan infected with an Illithid larvae.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 24 Aug 2010 21:01:48 |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2010 : 05:27:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I'm leaning to the fact that the "Great Glacier" was once considered much greater by all involved...and smaller parts of it were later called other names after breaking away.
The map linked to in Markustay's recent post would confirm that... and suggest that it hasn't really separated at all.
I'd love to have more lore on Sossal... Mark, weren't you working on a Sossal project at one point? I think that another scribe was doing so as well, but I don't recall who...
Another question for you, Mark (or whoever has the answer first): What was Ulutiu's 'necklace', if not a necklace? I don't have my copy of FR14 anywhere remotely handy thanks to moving four and a half years ago and leaving all of my pre-3E material in storage. I'll try FRwiki for an answer too. Thanks! 
Edit: Apparently, it was an amulet... not so much different from a necklace. I remember that now... vaguely. Must get... older books moved.... soon... |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 31 Aug 2010 05:35:40 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2010 : 19:44:31
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According to the story [Twilight in Realms of Infamy (IIRC - STILL not at home), Ulutiu created 5 gems as his final dying act. The were ice crystals of 5 different colors, formed on his fingertips which he dipped into the waters of 'the frozen Sea'. He then pressed the 5 gems into his collar, like a necklace, and then sank beneath the waves.
A LOT can be done with that - in my version of FR, I would make each gem become important unto itself. For instance, I would have one be set in the Ring of Winter (which assumes, of course, that at least one of the gems have been retrieved). If you bring all five together it would have the power to freeze the entire northern part of Toril (as it once did). Just my take, is all.
And yeah, I know it sounds a bit like the Infinity Gauntlet, but I like multi-part artifacts like that.
As for Sossil, I believe someone else had already done bang-up job of collecting ALL the sources for the place, but I'm not sure if they wanted help producing material for a Netbook - both Sage and I volunteered our services. I'm not even sure if I finished my own map of Sossil - I was working on that and the Great lacier around the time I quit mapping last year.
The very best source for info on Sossil was a short story about the place, that actually took place in an Inn just south of it - I believe it was called The Greatest Hero that ever Lived. Although the culture appears to be an early finno-Russian (like many of the Raumvari cultures are) derivitive, there is enough there to differentiate it from the pack. It is almost like a Russian/Siberian blend, with elements of Mongo's (Flash Gordon) Friggia thrown in. The 'Hero' from the story is actually some sort of evil bard - he is almost like a 'psychic vampire' - VERY cool.
Also, there is a bit about the 'Ice demons' in the Kara-Tur material, which turn out (at least some of them) to be 'Frost Folk' (that was in the novel that took place in the Taan, forget the name ATM). There is some stuff about the Nar (and later the Raumathari) using true ice demons in the far north, which can be tied into the Giant stuff as well, I suppose.
I'm starting to think there may have been a crust shift at some point in Toril's past. The most obvious event would the one that created the Sea of Fallen Stars, but since I don't have any sources with me I can't check the dates.
A massive cataclysmic shift in temperature in the North, caused by something falling into the Sea of Fallen Stars would be a great basis for that folklore regarding the Giants dying by just such an event. Something like that would have moved Zakhara from a more southerly (and cold) position to up near the equator, which could be the scientific basis for the legends of that region regarding the 'scattering of Fate', wherein all the peoples of a then-verdant Zakhara were driven to the fringes of that land (near the sea, to survive?) |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 31 Aug 2010 19:45:16 |
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Titans in FR?
