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ywhtptgtfo
Seeker
89 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Jun 2006 : 17:29:14
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Anyone find the book disappointing? Sarya and Malkizid are both dumb ogres in this book and are always outwitted by those self-righteous elves. The final scene where Sarya dies is especially pathetic. She's like "I-WILL-KILL-YOU" wah wah wah. Omg, when did her IQ drop so low? Fighting a half-celestial high mage and refuse to escape? Poorly done.
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2006 : 18:36:45
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| I would comment, but as I said before, and I checked again today!, I still can't get this book! Am I getting pissed? Yes, a bit! |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2006 : 22:56:41
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| Yes, all my local Border's says is that the book is "on its way." |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
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Aginor37
Acolyte
20 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2006 : 01:35:31
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quote:
Anyone find the book disappointing? Sarya and Malkizid are both dumb ogres in this book and are always outwitted by those self-righteous elves. The final scene where Sarya dies is especially pathetic. She's like "I-WILL-KILL-YOU" wah wah wah. Omg, when did her IQ drop so low? Fighting a half-celestial high mage and refuse to escape? Poorly done.
I would agree somewhat on Malkizid, but not so much as to Sarya. She has been portrayed in all the books as apt to lose her temper and "go wild" for a short time when something didn't go her way, and then she would calm down and plan her next move. She had just lost literally eerything, and in the process of her escape found those responsible for her defeat. IMO it was pretty consistant for her to blow her top and try to get revenge on them, considering her treatment of her allies that just said things she didn't want to hear. She just got kiled before she could "find her cool", so to speak. The only difference between this situation and the one she found herself in at Hillsifar is that she got overwhelmed before she could make a break for it.
My only real complaint about this book is that it seemed to wrap up a little too completely. It isn't realy even a complaint so much as a difference in personal preferrence, as when such a huge event happens I always like a few more loose ends and unanswered questions to contribute to the next story. This trilogy wouldn't have been out of line with a bit "THE END" on the last page, and that's not something I think I really like in a Realm's novel. |
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5696 Posts |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2006 : 12:42:35
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quote:
Originally posted by ywhtptgtfo
Anyone find the book disappointing?
You're not alone. Feel free to PM me if you wish regarding this novel. |
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ywhtptgtfo
Seeker
89 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2006 : 00:29:30
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quote:
Quoted from Alaundo:
Please feel free to use the Book Club threads for discussions of this tome. Thank ye
No thanks. I am more interested in free-style discussion than chapter-by-chapter literary analysis.
quote:
Quoted from SiriusBlack:
You're not alone. Feel free to PM me if you wish regarding this novel.
It would've been better if you share your thoughts in public so others can read and compare them with their own opinions of the novel. |
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The Cardinal
Senior Scribe
Canada
647 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2006 : 00:40:31
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quote:
Originally posted by ywhtptgtfo
quote:
Quoted from Alaundo:
Please feel free to use the Book Club threads for discussions of this tome. Thank ye
No thanks. I am more interested in free-style discussion than chapter-by-chapter literary analysis.
  
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It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2006 : 00:59:00
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quote:
Originally posted by The Cardinal
My thoughts exactly. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 14 Jun 2006 00:59:20 |
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ywhtptgtfo
Seeker
89 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2006 : 01:04:34
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| What's wrong with that? |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2006 : 01:59:25
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Because while the Book Club discussions are set up as chapter-based scrolls... you'll always find that there's plenty of discussion overall regarding the entire novel, not just the specific chapters being discussed.
Afterall, it would be nearly impossible to discuss certain chapters of a book without referencing it to what comes both before and after each chapter.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Reefy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
892 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2006 : 02:06:09
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| Sadly my FLGS (which isn't what I'd really call local anyway) had sold out. I'm not happy. |
Life is either daring adventure or nothing. |
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hammer of Moradin
Senior Scribe
USA
758 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2006 : 06:04:42
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I'm only on Chapter 8, but so far this is keeping up with an excellent series of books. It may disappoint in the end (I skipped the actual reference at the top), but there are many individual areas (Underdark trek) that have me wanting more. Keep looking, and if you read the first two books, you know you're going to read this one, and take sides on one side of this debate, or the other.
I'll let you know when I'm done here, and on the Book Club, which lets you give your final opinion, as well as discussing the finer points of the novel after a certain number of chapters. |
"Hurling himself upon his enemies, he terrified them with slaughter!"
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium
Candlekeep proverb: If a thing is said often enough, fools aplenty will believe it to be true. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2006 : 16:09:33
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quote:
Originally posted by ywhtptgtfo
No thanks. I am more interested in free-style discussion than chapter-by-chapter literary analysis.
I can understand that. The chapter-by-chapter postings could be fragmented to some who prefer to discuss the novel as a whole.
quote:
It would've been better if you share your thoughts in public so others can read and compare them with their own opinions of the novel.
Are you insane? There's no way, I'm saying anything overly negative about a work by an FR author who comes here. As I just mentioned in a PM to Ethriel, I learned that lesson some time ago. |
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Ethriel
Learned Scribe
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2006 : 16:58:24
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| I wouldn't worry, SB...I once gave an overly negative critique of one of Erik Scott de Bie's works...he was extremely cool on it and even went over my criticisms. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2006 : 17:15:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Ethriel
I wouldn't worry, SB...I once gave an overly negative critique of one of Erik Scott de Bie's works...he was extremely cool on it and even went over my criticisms.
That fact doesn't surprise me that much. ESdB has always struck me as very classy whenever I read a comment from him be it here or his blog.
And it's not the authors that keep me silent regarding Final Gate. But, thanks for PMing, I enjoyed talking to you. |
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1727 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2006 : 17:20:32
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
It would've been better if you share your thoughts in public so others can read and compare them with their own opinions of the novel.
Are you insane? There's no way, I'm saying anything overly negative about a work by an FR author who comes here. As I just mentioned in a PM to Ethriel, I learned that lesson some time ago.
I wouldn't worry too much about that. Those of us who're authors are all adults with thick enough skins to handle opinions, and you're entitled to yours. Don't hold your opinions to yourself unless they'd violate the agreed-upon standards on this board. And honestly, the moderators are very fair and allow a lot of leeway outside of personal attacks.
Maybe this'll change once my first novel comes out, but I've always taken the time to read reviews, both good and bad. I get what I can out of each in terms of improving the next project.
Besides, I'll bet Rich is interested in hearing all sides and thoughts about Final Gate.
But that's just one Dalesman's opinion....
Steven |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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ywhtptgtfo
Seeker
89 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2006 : 23:08:06
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quote:
Are you insane? There's no way, I'm saying anything overly negative about a work by an FR author who comes here. As I just mentioned in a PM to Ethriel, I learned that lesson some time ago.
I agree with Mr. Schend regarding this 'rationale'. How can this be an appropriate discussion forum if criticisms are not made under the appropriate conditions? If the author who writes the book cannot be a man and take both the good and the bad out of the reviews, then I doubt he's really suited for being a writer at all.
Personally, I believe Rick Baker is professional enough to be objective about the feedbacks of his work.
Now that we have this behind us, do you feel comfortable with sharing your thoughts about this book to the public? |
Edited by - ywhtptgtfo on 14 Jun 2006 23:11:33 |
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The Cardinal
Senior Scribe
Canada
647 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2006 : 23:46:12
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| I believe I see SiriusBlack's Point is that it is not the Author or that we feeble scribes' opbservations that could insult the author. It's scribes Preying on other fellow scribes. I know not now (since there are far too many new faces I don't know and few of the older faces I recall) but there were times when things got... 'less than civil' and Alaundo would have to come through with His staff of Irritated Moderator +5... which Reminds Me, Does Mighty Alaundo still carry that with him or Did Wooly or SiriusBlack manage to swipe it? Or Did he Upgrade it? |
It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2006 : 23:55:29
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quote:
Originally posted by The Cardinal
I believe I see SiriusBlack's Point is that it is not the Author or that we feeble scribes' opbservations that could insult the author. It's scribes Preying on other fellow scribes. I know not now (since there are far too many new faces I don't know and few of the older faces I recall) but there were times when things got... 'less than civil' and Alaundo would have to come through with His staff of Irritated Moderator +5... which Reminds Me, Does Mighty Alaundo still carry that with him or Did Wooly or SiriusBlack manage to swipe it? Or Did he Upgrade it?
Alaundo still has it, or in my case, he uses a whip on me for various reasons. :)
Now, to everyone else: Can we get back on topic? Sirius obviously doesn't want to discuss it in public and so let's move on. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 14 Jun 2006 23:56:17 |
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msatran
Learned Scribe
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2006 : 05:43:56
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Now that I have approached the book with a clear head...
This book had a lot of potential. A great deal of potential...
The Elves should have been wiped out by the end of book one. The sheer number of those creatures that can cast Unholy Blight, Word of Law, and Blasphemy defy description. Not to mention the fact that Joe Glabrezu can cast Power Word, Stun once a day. What were they doing with these special abilities? Picking their noses?
There was no indication of why the Fey'ri chose to fight to the death, and yes, Sarya had a tendancy to blow her top, but not in combat!!!
As for Malkazid, I was REALLY disappointed. It's like "I'm the real archvillian, here...look at me, but now, I'm in an endless void that it takes me...THREE SECONDS TO ESCAPE FROM!"
I mean, unless this whole thing was a big effort to collect Sarya's soul and acquire it for his own nefarious purposes (Which is a much better story than what was written here), his entire presence is MEANINGLESS IN THESE NOVELS!
Thoughts?
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ywhtptgtfo
Seeker
89 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2006 : 08:52:10
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A few other things:
1) Malkizid could've attacked the elven commanders much earlier rather than waiting until the end. If Severil died, the entire campaign would've fallen apart.
2) The drow who ambushed Fflar should've used lethal venom if they meant to kill, which they should've.
3) After dominating Wayrest, Malkizid could've just closed off all its gates to Faerun so that our dear half-Celestial high mage wouldn't be able to arrive there easily.
4) A closely guarded thing such as a shard of Gatekeeper's crystal should not have been so easily accessible especially in a conniving Arch-fiend's personal stronghold.
5) The whole Fflar and Illsevle rommance is lame and made Fflar act out of character.
6) The protagonist hardly had a personality at all. That's a problem with the protagonist of the Shadow Stone too with that boring half-elven shadow adept. He does attempt to give distinctive features to some minor PC's like that genasi, but all she does is to make a few smart remarks occasionally. He definitely can learn from Elaine Cunningham and Troy Denning when it comes to character design and development. |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2006 : 20:03:42
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| Bought the book yesterday. So far I love it. More to come. |
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Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2006 : 20:17:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Bought the book yesterday. So far I love it. More to come.
Me too, PDK. Excellent so far!!  I haven't really read much of this thread due to spoiler fear but I don't see what the "dialog" issue is. I thought it was great from what i've read. Araevin is as I remember him, the high mages were perfect and the meeting in Oak and Spear was just fine, no problem at all.
Care to join me and talk about it in the book club area?  |
Lord Rad
"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2006 : 20:53:08
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This book is starting to make me feel schizophrenic, since I've been both bashing and defending it in nearly equal measure. I guess that says something about it in-and-of-itself.
I've responded to a few of the criticisms here in the Book Club thread, but figured I'd jump in on a few others.
ywht:
2) I thought the venom *was* lethal, it was only a cleric's intervention that saved Fflar, and his strength that kept him going long enough for the cleric to get to him.
4) Araevin had to use epic magic (I refuse to call that High Magic, since it bears no resemblance to canon EHM, but it was certainly epic) to breach the shard's protection. Coupled with a citadel's worth of (bypassed) fiends, and I'd say it was rather well guarded.
5) How can Fflar act out of character? He's never appeared in print out of this series, and I don't think he was ever a POV character before. Personally, I liked the romance, and wished there was more time for it. Of course, I want another 200 pages for this book in general.
6) I'll agree that EC's characters are wonderful, among the best I've read, but I take extreme offense at including Denning in the same sentence. But this is still a relatively genial thread, and I don't want to get it sidetracked with Death Star rants.
msatran:
I've disagreed with your opinions on the fiendish battles and Malkizid in general before, so I won't here.
I do agree that the books might have been helped by a "grunt-level" fey'ri to give us another perspective on the army, much like that archer in Crusade, way back when. However, given how much *else* didn't have enough space in the book, I just don't see how it could have been slipped in. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2006 : 21:00:19
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To try and turn the discussion, I'd like to pose the question of what people liked in Final Gate. Obviously we all have our grievances with it, be they large or small, but, at least to me, there was a good deal of good in there as well.
So, a few things.
I liked that it wasn't forgotten that the Vale of Lost Voices had its own guardians, and that the baelnorn actually got called out to fight.
Probably the line that had me laughing the most was Nesterin's "Evidently, the construct still works," after they just finished an earthshaking battle.
It's been mentioned before, but the fact that people say "bells" instead of "hours."
Ilsevelle's diplomatic skills, including the exchange of impossible demands.
The fact that Seiveril went to war knowing he'd die. He knew it, and we knew it, and yet it wasn't clubbed over our heads, in fact it was barely mentioned.
There's more, but I don't have time to reread |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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ywhtptgtfo
Seeker
89 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2006 : 21:45:18
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>The fact that Seiveril went to war knowing he'd die. He knew it, and we knew it, and yet it wasn't clubbed over our heads, in fact it was barely mentioned.
Arvandor is a sweet sweet place. |
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ywhtptgtfo
Seeker
89 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2006 : 21:46:20
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Sorry for double post.
I do like the description of Waymeet. All glassy and stuff. Seems pretty high tech and beautiful. |
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Sarephim
Acolyte
USA
33 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2006 : 22:49:44
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Hmm...
While I did like this book to some extent I feel that it could have been better. Realisticly the elves should have been descimated by the sheer number of Demons and Devils... also I would think that that large amount of infernal creatures romaning the Prime Material would have drawn the attention of some of the Celestial powers to take action. I mean an Archdevil loose on the Material!? I would think that alone would be reason enough for one of the Tomb Archerons to take interest.
The Starbrow and Ilsevelle match didn't really surpise me that much, since well it has been hinted at throughout the entire series that Ilsevelle wasn't quite happy with the current arragement. |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2006 : 12:08:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Sarephim
also I would think that that large amount of infernal creatures romaning the Prime Material would have drawn the attention of some of the Celestial powers to take action. I mean an Archdevil loose on the Material!? I would think that alone would be reason enough for one of the Tomb Archerons to take interest.
I agree. A fiendish presence of that magnitude should have provoked a reaction like this in Celestia:"Lord Raziel, there is a massive fiendish invasion going on on Toril".
"Hot damn, assemble my legions! Time to kick demonic butt"!
(come on, it`s Raziel we`re talking about. There is no way in he-"ahem" heaven, that he would just sit there and do nothing. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Final Gate (spoilers)
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