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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5695 Posts |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Jun 2006 : 20:56:32
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Well, after mulling the book over for a day, I think my initial fear, that Mr. Baker was trying to do too much in one novel, was justified. I normally don't see this level of "too much-ness" outside of Ed Greenwood books. And it's disappointing, because, overall, I enjoyed the book, and I think for the most part, he got things right. But what he really needed was anothe 200 pages, or a fourth book.
A few comments (I don't want to ramble on too much as the first post):
I wanted a body count among the heroes. Seiveril's death had been foreshadowed from the very beginning. We knew it, and he knew it. It was simply a matter of where and how, and I think it was handled nicely. Still, with all the fiends and magic and steel flying everywhere, and humans and elves being incinerated left, right, and center, I *really* wanted one or two of the main characters to die. My preference would have been for the Gatekeeper's Crystal to work the way it was supposed to, and vaporize the entire Waymeet the way it did Hellgate Keep.
Along those lines, I thought the ending was too predictable. The heroes save the day, and all come home again. I liked the enemies, and the tactics of both sides, I liked seeing Fflar in action, and the irony of him invading his own home, but the ending was too clean, too, I don't know. Sort of like the War of the Spider Queen, where I read the first page and said, "They're going to make Lloth a greater goddess," and then spent the rest of the series hoping to be proven wrong. Only not quite that bad.
And speaking of Fflar, I knew that Araevin and Ilsevelle wouldn't stay together. What I wasn't expecting was for Fflar to enter the equation.
And on the subject of subplots, I thought that the actions of the Zhents was completely in character, but so little time was spent with them that it begs the question, why bother? That story could have been better told in a short story, or even a game supplement. The action had no consequence on the greater plot and, as it stands, is simply a distraction. The pages could have been better spent elsewhere, if it couldn't have been expanded. Or the Standing Stone, which we never revisit, and don't even know if it really was destroyed.
Which brings me to my one big gripe: the Srinshee's return was practically trumptetted at the beginning of the novel, and yet she never appears. And yet Ilsevelle has the Rule Blade at the end. They sort of reassembled the Alliance (though I would have loved to have had the other three races, dwarves, gnomes, and halflings, also represented, even if it was only a couple adventuring bands), so she might reappear. But how did Ilsevelle go from leader of the remaining Crusaders to Coronal? How did the hand-off occur? And so on, and so on. In a way, the entire series has been building to the Shrinshee's return, and it never happens. It's never even mentioned! Argh! Take all the pages from the Zhent plot, and you could have enough space for a decent chapter. Axe the existing epilogue, and even more so.
Ok, so I guess I did run on. Sorry. Overall, I liked the book, but I feel that in trying to tie everything up, it failed more than it would have if it had only tried to answer fewer things. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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RichardBaker
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
129 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2006 : 01:06:44
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Not enough body count? OK, I'll keep that in mind for the next one. Expect carnage.
Seriously, I whacked Grayth hard in the first book, and I did in a PoV character (Curnil) in the second, so I thought I'd done my authorly duty of making you all nervous about who was going to pull through. I suppose I telegraphed Seiveril, but that was part of the deal: Like Moses, he gets to see the Promised Land but it's not for him.
You're probably right about the Zhent storyline. Early in the series planning I had an idea that I would weave those storylines back together at the end, but I really ran out of space. I decided to leave it in because I think the "Realms politics" of the series are pretty interesting, and the Zhent storyline helps to explain how the Return is changing things all around Cormanthyr. Besides, I wanted to show the Zhents coming out on top for a change.
The Srinshee prologue is something that I intended to "bookend" with a corresponding epilogue, but Phil Athans (my editor) didn't like the way it played, so I dropped it. I left the prologue as is because the Srinshee's departure is one of the best mythical moments of Myth Drannor's history, thanks to the description Steven Schend created in Fall of Myth Drannor. I felt that even without the "back half" it still made sense to show the event from Fflar's eyes.
Glad I managed to surprise someone with the Fflar-Ilsevele bit. I was afraid I'd telegraphed that too. Someone in another thread on this site (maybe it was Winterfox?) pointed out again and again how badly I'd handled the romance between Araevin and Ilsevele... but in one post she made an off-hand remark that maybe I was being smarter than I looked and breaking them up, not keeping them together. I've been itching to see the twist on that story get out into the readers' hands for some time now.
Anyway, sorry I didn't have 200 pages more of story for you. I could've used them, but I only had 110,000 words to work with, and it's beyond my power to decide to make a book longer. Next time I'll bite off a little less to make sure I can chew it better.
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Rich Baker
Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2006 : 01:27:39
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Personally, I think you nailed the Araevin-Ilsevelle romance right on the head when Ilsevelle said that she'd never seen the real Araevin. Some people just live for adventure and the road, and others don't.
And there was a lot that I liked: finally someone referring to hours as "bells," and pretty much the entire Underdark sequence. Where do you figure that chasm is?
As for character death, my feeling is that in a series, the only deaths that matter are those of characters that have been around for more than a book. Curnil doesn't count, since he was introduced in the same book (though I liked the character, he was very much a secondary character, the type just ripe for killing). Grayth's death was much better, since he was part of the "core party." But unless you kill one of the established, main characters, and preferably not the obvious choice, I really don't feel like the characters are threatened in the climax. It's sort of the Star Trek effect: the entire ship explodes, everyone dies, and yet, here are our heroes somehow still alive and kicking.
Oh, and rereading my first post, I realized that I may have come off sounding like I didn't like Seiveril's death. I did. I liked the fact that both the reader and the character knew that he wouldn't survive, and yet he never overtly showed it. Nor was the point continually narratively hammered at us. Well done on that one. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
Edited by - Hoondatha on 15 Jun 2006 05:06:37 |
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Ethriel
Learned Scribe
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2006 : 03:05:26
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My main criticisms that haven't been addressed:
I did feel the end was...a bit sudden witht he sudden five year cut and I was hoping we'd get more insight to characters like Jerredah, Garraedh, Methrammar, evena sentence or two to confirm what'd happen.
Also, I was heavily disappointed to see a lack of Fflar's feelings at the end...I was kind of hoping for a wrap up or closure to what'd happened with his wife and her husband in the afterlife and all |
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msatran
Learned Scribe
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2006 : 06:24:47
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You guys knew I wasn't going to like it. But allow me to explain, in a non-ranty way, I hope, precisely what I didn't like about it.
1) Alan Smithee writes better dialogue. (Yeah, I know you saw this on the other thread, but I'm really serious here.) This really, and I mean really read like one of those 4 AM gaming sessions where everyone's on their third cup of coffee and the campaign's just about to end. "I-Will-Kill-You?"..."Not if I can help it?" I really thought we had moved beyond Lester Dent in these novels, but even Lester Dent at his worst was never this bad.
2) We all know that Seiveril was really killed for the specific reason of the fact that he disapproved of Fflar and Ilsevele's relationship, because the relationship cannot function with him alive. Wouldn't it have been better to leave him alive, Moses figure or no, so that Player Characters can solve the relationship crisis? Troubled relationships are much more interesting, and, Mr. Baker, they pay your bills, because you get another novel out of it.
3) I am disappointed with the use of evil outsiders in these adventures as meatshields. Creatures like hezrous and glabrezus are incredibly formidible, teleportation or no, and they can do things that are absolutely monstrous and ridiculous. A battle with a Glabrezu is a battle to 150 HP. Then the battle ends. It wins. Power Word, Stun, game over.
4) Sarya Dlardrageth was grossly mischaracterized throughout. There were too many examples of what I called "Killing the messenger." Sarya killed so many of her own people in this series its a wonder that there was page space left for a plot.
5) Malkazid. Unless his real goal is "Sarya, you will be my soulslave" this entire series makes no sense. Malkazid is so powerful that realistically, Starbrow never should have been able to lay a glove on him, flat footed or not. And why spare his life? That was a useless action. Why not just kill him where he lies? Take the six seconds it takes to coup de grace him. He certainly had the motive to do so. Why go to all the trouble of trashing this guy just to knock him out? What's his REAL plan? When you read this stuff, if you're a DM, you think "What would my PC's do with this information?" They would start trying to figure out why Malkazid left Starbrow alive. But there WASN'T a reason. It was never even explained.
I'll be honest. I would have killed Arevin. He should have been consumed in the destruction of the Waypoint.
Because let's be honest. What was the price that he really paid? He lost NOTHING. He didn't have Ilsevele. He never did. It was obvious from the first few chapters of the first book. He got a free pass to High Magic and a chance to earn some more XP. He didn't have to give up anything, except a surprise level adjustment. Real heroism comes from real loss.
On a more personal level, I believe that Tangled Trees and Semberholme should have the following political reaction. "You just came in here, dropped your coronal on us after you ran away? And you came back just when it was convenient for you... Uhh...huh...riight..."
This situation is ripe for civil war, Eldreth Veluuthra unrest, and other entertaining things. Now THAT I can't wait to see. |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2006 : 11:03:49
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All right... I pulled an all-nighter basically reading the book and finishing it around 3 in the morning.
Before I come to the novel/storylin itself I want to address msatran:
I've no idea who Alan Smithee and Lester Dent are, but that doesn't really matter, you criticize the dialogue because of the ..um..what? I mean, seriously, you have an action scene, the villain shouts out a threat, what is the hero to reply? Lapse into a Shakespearean monologue? I could imagine a reply like this, through gritted teeth, maybe the hero should have grunted, shrugged and just made the Bruce-Lee-stylesque motion with his hand.
On Seiveril's death: he approved in the end, not because he was dying, but he saw the love between them. Since he wasn't a viewpoint character it was kinda hard to do otherwise.
The use of outsiders as meatshields: it was a logical thing for Sarya to do this. Why you may ask. Because at heart she thinks herself and her people way superior to the demons, devils etc. plus they were replacable, the fey'ri were not. To use game stats in a novel is .. um... silly, unless you'd also like to see the entire roll-by-roll battle of, say, Helm's Deep. It is a story, not a game, plus powerword, stun works on one person...right, when you face an army of countless elves and humans that really is what you want to do, plus Sarya wanted them to soak damage away from her own troops.
The mischaracterization thing: to tell the creator of a character that he mischaracterized his own creation is...silly. Admittedly the kill the messenger thing was ridiculous, but that was the point! Sarya Dlardrageth was no good leader, she was a bitch, and she is above all the mixture of gold elven arrogance at its very best and demonic superiority.
On Malkizid: I agree, I never really understood what his motivation was. The why-not-kill-Fflar thing, well, Fflar was not so much a thorn in his side than Araevin who had foiled all his plans. Would it have been more reasonable to slay Fflar? Absolutely! But if we all were this reasonable we wouldn't have revenge and all the other nice stuff...
Now, finally, to the novel:
The Zhent subplot, as was mentioned before was kinda sorta a let-down. It reminded me in its outcome of the entire Lando-subplot in the Black Fleet Crisis trilogy. Lots of action etc, but it did nothing to the overall plot. I was expecting the Zhent army at least showing up at Myth Drannor to either fight the daemonfey or the Crusade. But nothing happened. Very very sad. The entire thing was space (story-wise) wasted, had the Zhentish aided the Crusade Fzoul would have gained an immense lever to trade with the elves, make demands etc. And from a point of strength. Just for the sake of adding some realms-politics to the mix, it was a bit weak (again story-wise).
Terminology: the time-unit bell...finally!!! Hours, minutes, seconds... it added a sort of believability that was astonishing, at least to me as a writer. One gripe I had from the get-go of the trilogy was the term Crusade, and it annoyed me back when I first read about Azoun's crusade. Some terms, at least to me, are so colored by/founded in real world Christianity that they should just not be used, crusade is one of them. Herbert had his Jihad (sp?), we have our crusades. I know that the intention was to give us readers a term we could work with, but couldn't anyone come up with a better term? Even in elvish.
Plot: aside from the Zhent-thing, great, although I thought that too much time was wasted with "travel-notes", a point for which I can only blame myself because I hate travel notes. The episodes in the chasm and the planes were too elaborate for my liking, it was space that could've been used to further either the Zhent plot or the relationship plot.
Epilogue: was said before, it was all a tad...err..make that TAD too sudden, those five years should have been dealt with seperately, especially since they show no clear resolution..what happened to the Sembians? The denizens of Myth Drannor? How did the crusade handle the various other threats? Especially the phaerimm? Those were question that were mainly on my mind when I came to the beginning of the epilogue. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2006 : 13:00:47
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I agree with Mace about the fiends. The Abyss is limitless, there's no reason for them NOT to be in the front. Sarya embodies the worst of sun elf noble arrogance, mixed with the worst of demon traits (her father was a balor, let's not forget). She is absolutely convinced that daemonfey and fey'ri are the greatest creatures (and she the greatest among them), meant to rule over everyone, and she's willing to use any means to advance her rule. If she's got tanar'ri, they're going to be in the front lines, because that's where they can do the most damage, and she doesn't the least care if they die.
And trying to impose game stats on a novel is, frankly, insulting. It's been accepted for years that, if the authors had to write based only on the sourcebooks say, not only would the novel line have died out years ago, but many of the established characters (and not just the major ones, Pikel comes instantly to mind) would not have been able to do what they've done. At least to me, novels trump gaming products.
And even though I just said not to quote stats, I'm going to once: Richard said in the Forsaken House discussions that Fflar came back as a fighter, level 15-20. He's been a little active since then, so it's entirely possible he's now 20+. Which is certainly enough to hit Malkizid (especially with Foebane, a major elven sword with a number of powers aimed at fiends). |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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RichardBaker
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
129 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2006 : 18:14:55
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I'm not sure I agree with several of these criticisms, to be honest.
RE: dialogue... are there other places where it falls short, or is it just one line of Sarya's that bothers you? I intended for the reader to understand that she was beyond reason at that point, so I deliberately had her "dumb down" her threat.
RE: Seiveril... no, he didn't die so that Fflar and Ilsevele could be together. That's not why he didn't survive the story. He was doomed because I think it's the nature of epic power and vision that you begin to lose your ability to write your own destiny. Showing a character struggling to do what's right and remain an inspiring leader even when he sees perfectly where his own personal road is heading seemed like an interesting way to breathe life into a character. Without a take like that, it's hard to do something appealing and approachable with a 400-year-old servant of Corellon Larethian who probably has Int 18 and Wis 25.
(That suggests a digression, which I hope you may find interesting. Great wisdom is hard to write--as is great good. In fact, elves in general are very hard to write, unless you make them just like humans. I always felt that making elves act and feel just like humans is a tremendous cop-out, so I struggled to create characters who could be flawed in ways that us human readers might not think of as real flaws. It might make the characters appear wooden, distant, or unemotional, but that's because I'm trying to paint characters who are essentially good and wise without defaulting to the easy crutch of making them not so good and not so wise. So Fflar's "flaws" are self-doubt and a broken heart--a tragedy of timing, because his first wife survived his death by centuries and came to love another more than she did him. Araevin's flaws are impatience and ambition--but of course these characteristics are exactly what the hour calls for, and are not necessarily flaws from a human point of view. Anyway, writing elves without making them into humans is *exceedingly* hard, and I'm not going to put multiple elves in the same story again unless someone puts a gun to my head.)
Back to your points. As far as outsiders as meat shields, well, the elven Crusade was not composed of 1st-level elf warriors. Judge the quality of the Crusade by the quality of their adversaries. There's a reason the Zhents got whipped.
Another digression: I detest the politicization of the term crusade. Only ten years ago someone could crusade against gang violence, or crusade against city hall corruption, or crusade against drugs. Not so long ago people spoke of World War Two as a crusade against totalitarianism. Batman's nickname is the Caped Crusader, for crying out loud. I don't hold with the point of view that this word is riveted in Christian-Muslim conflict, any more than I would support the view that the word "legion" ought to be resented by the French, whose Gallic ancestors were treated quite badly by the Romans a long time ago. Political correctness is an assault on the integrity of the language. I guess I'm a dinosaur in that regard.
I can think of only one instance where Sarya killed the messenger, and that was toward the end of the book when everything was going to heck in a handbasket and some of her fey'ri were heading into open rebellion against her. Point out a couple more mischaracterizations so that I can see where else I grossly mishandled her. I'd like to know what parts don't seem to fit in your eyes.
Oh, and for what it's worth, I was thinking of Fflar as a low epic-level fighter... say, 20th to 25th. Certainly good enough to stand with the archdevil for a couple of rounds and not get killed.
quote:
Originally posted by msatran
You guys knew I wasn't going to like it. But allow me to explain, in a non-ranty way, I hope, precisely what I didn't like about it.
1) Alan Smithee writes better dialogue. (Yeah, I know you saw this on the other thread, but I'm really serious here.) This really, and I mean really read like one of those 4 AM gaming sessions where everyone's on their third cup of coffee and the campaign's just about to end. "I-Will-Kill-You?"..."Not if I can help it?" I really thought we had moved beyond Lester Dent in these novels, but even Lester Dent at his worst was never this bad.
2) We all know that Seiveril was really killed for the specific reason of the fact that he disapproved of Fflar and Ilsevele's relationship, because the relationship cannot function with him alive. Wouldn't it have been better to leave him alive, Moses figure or no, so that Player Characters can solve the relationship crisis? Troubled relationships are much more interesting, and, Mr. Baker, they pay your bills, because you get another novel out of it.
3) I am disappointed with the use of evil outsiders in these adventures as meatshields. Creatures like hezrous and glabrezus are incredibly formidible, teleportation or no, and they can do things that are absolutely monstrous and ridiculous. A battle with a Glabrezu is a battle to 150 HP. Then the battle ends. It wins. Power Word, Stun, game over.
4) Sarya Dlardrageth was grossly mischaracterized throughout. There were too many examples of what I called "Killing the messenger." Sarya killed so many of her own people in this series its a wonder that there was page space left for a plot.
5) Malkazid. Unless his real goal is "Sarya, you will be my soulslave" this entire series makes no sense. Malkazid is so powerful that realistically, Starbrow never should have been able to lay a glove on him, flat footed or not. And why spare his life? That was a useless action. Why not just kill him where he lies? Take the six seconds it takes to coup de grace him. He certainly had the motive to do so. Why go to all the trouble of trashing this guy just to knock him out? What's his REAL plan? When you read this stuff, if you're a DM, you think "What would my PC's do with this information?" They would start trying to figure out why Malkazid left Starbrow alive. But there WASN'T a reason. It was never even explained.
I'll be honest. I would have killed Arevin. He should have been consumed in the destruction of the Waypoint.
Because let's be honest. What was the price that he really paid? He lost NOTHING. He didn't have Ilsevele. He never did. It was obvious from the first few chapters of the first book. He got a free pass to High Magic and a chance to earn some more XP. He didn't have to give up anything, except a surprise level adjustment. Real heroism comes from real loss.
On a more personal level, I believe that Tangled Trees and Semberholme should have the following political reaction. "You just came in here, dropped your coronal on us after you ran away? And you came back just when it was convenient for you... Uhh...huh...riight..."
This situation is ripe for civil war, Eldreth Veluuthra unrest, and other entertaining things. Now THAT I can't wait to see.
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Rich Baker
Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
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ywhtptgtfo
Seeker
89 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2006 : 19:28:57
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Re: Sarya, dumb down, and beyond all reasoning: I am not a language major, but I definitely had seen better dialogues from villains who have gone mad. To be fair, I liked the dialogues in "Forsaken House".
Re: flaws of characters: If Araevin's flaws are ambition and impatience, they actually don't really stick out. Throughout the series, Araevin, to me, is just a treasure hunter who goes around and collects the necessary pieces. There are very few significant intra-party interactions (especially in the third book) and all he does is to fight, fight, and win (as always).
Re: strength of Elven crusade: The Zhents and the fey'ri armada are, on average, levels apart. The demon horde that defeated Myth Drannor (with Mythal) + 2 dragons + Mystran chosens was only led by the generals of Malkizid and without the assistance of flying fey'ri spellcasters.
Re: Malkizid and Fflar: The question will be more on why Malkizid doesnt take down the commanders of the elven crusade in the first raid.
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On the positive side, I like your portyral of Scylla Darkhope and the Zhents. The fact that they left Hillsfar standing is an intelligent touch.
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2006 : 19:47:06
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Malkizid's purpose in the series is to corrupt and take over the Waymeet. While I'm sure that he'd like to see the Crusade destroyed, he can wait until he can nuke everyone at once. In essence, he's using Sarya in much the same way she's using the fiends. He didn't need to destroy anyone personally unless he wanted to. I figure his first foray was just him having some fun, not to achieve any real goal.
The second time, when he actually *does* decide to deal personally with the leaders is after the Crusade had pretty much won, or was looking like it would. Incidentally, this is much like his apparent-protege Aulmpiter, who spent most of the Weeping Wars behind the lines, working his plans. And then it was only Araevin's going after something Malkizid valued greatly that kept a battle royale from ensuing. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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ywhtptgtfo
Seeker
89 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2006 : 21:27:47
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Re: Hoondatha:
Yep, that makes sense for common villains, but way too much hubris coming from an intelligent immortal arch-villain. I've read a few drow novels and I've rarely seen villains leaving potential threats undestroyed unless they have a stake in their adversaries' existence or they have trouble doing so. It would've made more sense if Rick Baker justified this telling the readers that:
1) Malkizid could not come (physically, not just teleportation) anywhere within the influence radius of the Tree of Souls (makes sense).
2) Severil and Fflar walked out of that range when Malkizid went up and attacked them towards the end. |
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Aginor37
Acolyte
20 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2006 : 21:47:37
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Well, now that I have had a few days to let is sink in and move beyond my first impressions, I think I can now give a better account of what I thought of this book.
First off, I really didn't have any problems with dialogue, character motivations, or any other "technical" aspects of the book. Everything seemed to fit together fairly well here, which is saying quite a bit considering the scope of what was going on.
First, just let me get this out of the way. Wow. Maybe I should have, but I really didn't expect to see Myth Drannor reclaimed and re-inhabited in anything less than a sourcebook or a full-size hardcover novel. I mean, that's always been one of the crown jewels of the Realms, and I am really wondering what the change is going to do to the Realms at large. mor on that in a bit.
I think that this book probably did more with the abilities of the characters than the other books did. Maybe it was just a matter of the challenges they faced, but I had to laugh out loud when Maresa decided to grab the third shard and Arevin was so frightened for her. Hello, air genasi means more than just the pale complexion and white hair, the girl has powers too. 
I mentioned in a post over in the novels section, that I felt things wrapped up too neatly. Now that I have given it more thought, that's not the thing that struck me as strange about this trilogy, although I stil feel that the whole "5 years later" epilogue left out a lot of room for adventures and other stories, and hope that period will be expanded on. I think the thing that got me the most was the fact that Good actually won.
What I mean by that is, in the vast majority of FR novels, Good always thwarts Evil, but the result is almost always just a return to the status quo, with possibly the removal of the occasional bad guy. But this time, the forces of Good actually ended the series in a significantly better position than they started in. Sure, the good guys won the day and prevented the bad guy's nefarious plan, but above and beyond that a source of evil was actually removed from the Realms.
I'm still not sure how I feel about that.
All in all though, a well written and fully enjoyable addition to the Realms. |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2006 : 21:53:53
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Richard, please don't get me wrong, I didn't want to coin the term crusade in the way you stated, for me, as a (hobby-)writer with ambitions, I try to un-earth things as much as possible. Of course I realize that it is very hard.
Just dug out this snippet:
1706, respelling of croisade (1577), from M.Fr. croisade, Sp. cruzada, both from M.L. cruciata, pp. of cruciare "to mark with a cross," from L. crux (gen. crucis) "cross." Figurative sense of "campaign against a public evil" is from 1786.
To me I assosiate crusade with our history in a very negative sense, probably more so the older (ye GODS!) and wiser (yea right!) I get.
Maybe that's just me. On the same note tho, you refrained from using the word "hour" instead referring to bells, thus un-earthing the term yet leaving it understandable.
I couldn't care less about PC, and if the term crusade just means "campaign against a public evil" I am way cool with that, it was merely the earth-like quality of the word... on the same topic, personally I would not use the term zweihänder in a novel either, unless it takes place in our world of course |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2006 : 00:55:32
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| Might I suggest "de-Earth" instead of "un-earth?" Maybe it's just because my neighbor is an archaeology PhD student, but I spent much of your post trying to figure out how excavations fit into the discussion... Sigh. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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RichardBaker
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
129 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2006 : 02:21:22
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Sure, I understand that; the word does carry some real-world connotations. I wouldn't use zweihander, or c'est la vie, or mano y mano, or any such thing that felt like a real-Earth-language phrase or place name.
My rant about the word "crusade" is that it became politically charged four years ago. Before that, it was fine as a shorthand way of saying "a fight for a great cause," and did its job quite nicely. President Bush used the term with a lower case c in a prominent speech soon after 9/11. (I don't recall if it was the national address after 9/11, the State of the Union, or just a widely reported press conference.) Some people chose to hear Crusade with a capital C instead. And because of that the word has suddenly become racially charged. I don't agree that the term/concept crusade (small c) must exit the English language because of that. But that's just my opinion.
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Richard, please don't get me wrong, I didn't want to coin the term crusade in the way you stated, for me, as a (hobby-)writer with ambitions, I try to un-earth things as much as possible. Of course I realize that it is very hard.
Just dug out this snippet:
1706, respelling of croisade (1577), from M.Fr. croisade, Sp. cruzada, both from M.L. cruciata, pp. of cruciare "to mark with a cross," from L. crux (gen. crucis) "cross." Figurative sense of "campaign against a public evil" is from 1786.
To me I assosiate crusade with our history in a very negative sense, probably more so the older (ye GODS!) and wiser (yea right!) I get.
Maybe that's just me. On the same note tho, you refrained from using the word "hour" instead referring to bells, thus un-earthing the term yet leaving it understandable.
I couldn't care less about PC, and if the term crusade just means "campaign against a public evil" I am way cool with that, it was merely the earth-like quality of the word... on the same topic, personally I would not use the term zweihänder in a novel either, unless it takes place in our world of course
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Rich Baker
Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
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gss_000
Acolyte
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2006 : 05:06:12
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I absolutely loved the ending. I really had no problem with how quick some things wrapped up because when high level magics are involved, fights can go quickly one way or the other. It would have been nice if the wrap up lasted longer, but space was limited as had been said.
I also really loved the 5 year jump in time. Although we know what the end result is, and the region was dramatically changed, in some ways it wasn't and that balancing act was well done. DMs who want to have a Myth Drannor game can still do so. It actually is very feasible now, and actually in my mind would be a lot more fun than before.
Oh, and I think I might have disturbed the neighbors when I hooted after reading mention of Laumaril and his hidden city (I know it occurs earlier, but also was mentioned in the epilogue). It's been a personal pet peeve of mine that no one has mentioned this for the past 7 years. Thanks for including it.
For me, I'm always worried when reading the last book in a series because if it disappoints it can ruin the entire experience. I felt very good putting this book down in the end. Alhough I wanted more, I also felt satisfied that it had lived up o my expecttions. Thanks, Mr. Baker. |
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msatran
Learned Scribe
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2006 : 06:10:30
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All right, I'll bite at Fflar the epic fighter. That I can buy, it just didn't seem to me that he was that high of a level with the foes he was facing. I treat that as an okay, I misjudged the level of the NPC, so I'll accept that at your word. Problem solved. You and I don't share game ability perceptions, or novel ability perceptions, all well and good. I'd like to play in your game someday, and see how it works.
Dialogue: Throughout the book, there were moments where the dialogue really did fall flat, not just during the final battle. The vale of lost voices scene where Ilsevele meets her grandfather seemed particularly stilted to me, and far too reminiscent of the scene in Lord of the Rings where Aragorn ocnvinces the dead to fight for him. I am certain that you intended to evoke images of this, and that it was part of your plan to get people to hearken back to that.
As for killing the messenger, I was referring to the entire trilogy. Sarya has only one response to challenges, kill them outright. If I were as mean and sadistic as she is, I would use the offender to test the skills and abilities of my enemies. "Well, you're on the outs with me now, if you think that I am wrong, I shall give you the chance to prove it. Go out there and kill Araevin for me." If it succeeds, Sarya wins, and she can finish off her wounded "hero" with the sadistic lie of "Alas, she vanquished my enemy and now she is dead of her grevious wounds. A hero to the Fey'ri!" If it fails, she's rid of a dangerous rival. That's the kind of cunning and mercilessness I expect from a 5000+ Half Fiend Gold Elf.
Okay. There is one other thing that I'd like to discuss with you, and this actually bothers me more than ANY of the things I've just gone over. The Temple of Lathander levelled? This is Lathander's most heavily warded temple in the entire world. That's what the old Myth Drannor sourcebook says. Elven High Magic is very powerful. But it's not more powerful than Lathander, the god of the Sun. I don't buy that the Fey'ri could bring that structure down without unleashing the holy wrath of the entire Lathanderite church upon them. By book three, the way the faith of Lathander is portrayed in the Realms these days, I would have expected twenty thousand Lathanderites to be marching on Cormanthor with holy fury and Sun Magic everywhere.
On the bright side: Excellent job with Miklos Selkirk, I liked the way that was handled. I forgot to compliment you on what you did well. I did also like the portrayal of the Zhents, though I am now kind of confused with regard to Secrets of the Moonsea. Who the HECK is in charge in Hillsfar? Are there Red Plumes or aren't there? Where is Maalthiir?
Oh, and your non-novel work in 3.5 sourcebooks both Realms and Non? Excellent. Though I'm not sure the City of Shade and Shadow Weave Magic are necessary. They cause more game problems than they solve. |
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msatran
Learned Scribe
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2006 : 06:22:30
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Oh, and whoever said that it doesn't matter who Lester Dent is? That's a ridiculous assertion. Whether Richard Baker knows it or not, he's not writing novels, he's writing pulp. And Lester Dent, Robert E. Howard, Louis L'amour, and all the other pulp greats should rise up in their graves and twitch at you, sir.
Just because Lester Dent has bad days doesn't mean that Lester Dent didn't have good moments, too. Lester Dent invented Doc Savage, and the Avenger. Robert E. Howard invented Conan. I sure hope you know who that character is. I mentioned Lester Dent because his prolific nature made what he did pulp, and eventually, he had to have novels ghostwritten for him. And yes, sometimes the dialogue was bad. But that just means that it's pulp. You can't discuss novels the way you discuss pulp. But here we are, doing so.
Lester Dent had a formula that he used to write these novels. Google Lester Dent Pulp Formula on the net. You may be surprised at what you find. Not once has Mr. Baker deviated from this formula.
In the end, pulp writers used to sit around when the day was done and talk about what was real and what was pulp. The only difference is that we are sitting here talking about what is Realms and what is Pulp.
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2006 : 09:35:07
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I apologize for my lack of knowledege on American pulp authors, msatran, but I am certain you are familiar with K.H. Scheer, Willi Volz and other German pulp greats.
My saying it doesn't matter was referring to my knowledge of these authors. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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msatran
Learned Scribe
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2006 : 13:54:43
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(Slightly off topic)
Actually, I am familiar with Mr. Scheer, but I can't find his works in translation. Could you help me? |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
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Prince Forge of Avalon
Learned Scribe
USA
117 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2006 : 08:29:27
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Dear Mr Baker,
I just wanted to thank you GREATLY for this final chapter of your trilogy ( I just finhed the book this evening ), and I must say it held my attention TOTALLY!!
Finally after whats seems like forever, the Elves of the realms are not the "whipping boy" and "stupider than dirt", I grown SOO very tired of the way that most portray the Elves as so 1 dimensonal and so weak!
I truly enjoyed the WHOLE series and have not a bad thing to say about it- Thats why I read such stories for ENJOYMENT!!
If its not to much trouble,(If the characters are not going to be stated in The Dragon Mag) would you mind giving an approximation of the main characters and their classes and levels.
I know you said you saw Flar as a Fighter lvl 20-25.
AGAIN THANK YOU FOR THE READ I REALLY ENJOYED IT!!!
Prince Forge Of Avalon |
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RichardBaker
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
129 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2006 : 21:55:03
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Glad you liked it. I wanted to portray the elves as a vital and growing force in Faerun again.
Regarding the main characters, well, I'm sure someone will call me on the details, but here's what I think: Araevin, low 20's epic wizard by series end; Fflar, low 20's epic fighter; Seiveril, 20-ish cleric; Ilsevele, 15-ish fighter/arcane archer; Maresa, 15-ish rogue; Donnor, 15-ish fighter/cleric; Sarya, half-fiend sorcerer, low 20's.
quote:
Originally posted by Prince Forge of Avalon
Dear Mr Baker,
I just wanted to thank you GREATLY for this final chapter of your trilogy ( I just finhed the book this evening ), and I must say it held my attention TOTALLY!!
Finally after whats seems like forever, the Elves of the realms are not the "whipping boy" and "stupider than dirt", I grown SOO very tired of the way that most portray the Elves as so 1 dimensonal and so weak!
I truly enjoyed the WHOLE series and have not a bad thing to say about it- Thats why I read such stories for ENJOYMENT!!
If its not to much trouble,(If the characters are not going to be stated in The Dragon Mag) would you mind giving an approximation of the main characters and their classes and levels.
I know you said you saw Flar as a Fighter lvl 20-25.
AGAIN THANK YOU FOR THE READ I REALLY ENJOYED IT!!!
Prince Forge Of Avalon
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Rich Baker
Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
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johnnype
Acolyte
5 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2006 : 22:22:32
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First of all I wanted to thank Mr. Baker for participating in this discussion. Reading a novel is a personal endeavor given how much time we, the readers, spend with the material. It's nice to have the author available to get some background on the novel (much like a director's commentary on a DVD).
I, for one, enjoyed the series. I'm not saying it's perfect but I think that too much time and energy is spent looking for flaws. I read gaming fiction to be entertained and the Last Mythal does the job better than most.
Now for some comments. I know that's it a bit of a "faux pas" for writers to stat their characters but it sure would explain a lot. Perhaps on the WotC website as Forgotten Realms NPC's? If that's too much perhaps just a class and level breakdown. For example: Ilsevele (5th level Fighter/5th level Wizard/ 10th level Arcane Archer). Just a thought.
I will admit that the battle between elves/humans vs. demons/devils/fae'ry seemed like a bit of a stretch given the different power levels. Mr. Baker states in this thread that the elves and humans were not your everage low powered henchmen. It's good to know that but it might have been more helpful if it was made more obvious in the novels.
I did like seeing all the various NPC's from the RPG supplements. I also liked to see the different races of the main characters (the star elf and the air genasi being my favorite). I would have liked them all to be more fleshed out but I understand the page limitations imposed by WotC (I don't like them but I understand them).
More as I think of it. |
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Wandering_mage
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2006 : 00:46:49
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I am sooooo cheating by reading this but I have wanted to start reading this series forever now. Richard Baker, I have heard a lot about this series (6 people in all) and it has been all good comments. Now I will start reading so I can post that I liked it too.  |
Illum
The Wandering Mage |
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Dremvek
Seeker
70 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2006 : 03:31:52
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I found after I finished and have now had a couple of days for it to sink in that I did enjoy the series. My biggest complaint, as has been mentioned above, is that it could have used another hundred pages or so to better detail how the loose ends were tied up. This, however, is a minor complaint.
I enjoyed the characters very much. They were believable. Someone mentioned above or in the other thread that they wanted to see the "stereotype" character, without being an outsider or quirky. I think that sounds good in theory, but when you get down to it, these characters don't make good heroes. For a character to be really memorable as a hero, they can't be your day to day, content with life, happy with the status quo individuals. There has to be some sort of discontent, something that makes them step up to the challenges before them.
Araevin was a prime example of this. He was not content to sit back and take life as it comes after the attack on the tower. An elf that is content to ponder things for long times, sit back in the tower and reason out what needs to be done, and wait 50 years to act on it does not make for a great story. A main character needs to be dynamic and decisive. Araevin does this well.
Ilsevele worked well as a contrast to Araevin. She was content to live a life in her house raising children. She was happy to follow orders and never leave Evermeet again. Though she broadened her view at the end, she was the anchor to Araevin - grounding him and making him think twice before rushing into hasty decisions.
I think the characterizations were the strongest features of these novels. I was interested in what happened next to them. They were dynamic - changing when change was needed - but still in the end were true to themselves even when the change was done.
Before I ramble too much more, I wanted to thank Richard for a great series. He introduced me to many new areas of the realms I was not famliar with, but will be interested in checking out in the future. I'm a bit of a history buff, so hearing stories of the past of some of these locations was a real treat to me. Hopefully we'll be seeing more from him in the future - and I wouldn't object to a few short stories tying up a few more of these loose ends hanging out there :) |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2006 : 04:00:51
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I really liked the ending of this book. It really illustrated to me that you can't just take information out of context and form an opinion. When I first saw the infamous spoiler on Power of Faerun, I had visions of a big happy ending with no strings attatched. I also assumed that the Zhents were pretty much out of the story and that the drow just didn't figure into the book at all.
Now, I wish the drow had more of a presense in the book, but they dropped out of the fight before everything went south for the Fey'ri, meaning they can still harass the Dalesfolk and the newly refounded Myth Drannor. I can deal with that, but I hope Lisa's books touch on this some.
I do wish that we could have come back to the Zhents again, but it was enough to know that they more or less came out much better in the end of the book then when they started. I like the new power dynamic of the politics here. Cormyr is weakened but present, the Dales are wounded, Myth Drannor is refounded by still new, the Moonsea is even more under Zhent control than ever, and Sembia is kept at bay just a bit more due to their dealings with the elves.
I do wonder what, if any, issues the Dalesfolk have with Sembia, and if the Sembians withdrew peacefully and without issue. I also am still wondering about the Standing Stone. Did Sarya's minions manage to destroy it? If so, are we going to see a new Dales compact with the elves? I would think that, being elves, the elves would assume its still in effect one way or the other, but you never know.
Did the destruction of the Waymeet have an adverse affect on any of the ancient elven portals? Obviously the ones in the Waymeet were destroyed, but if the ancient elven ones used the Waymeet as a sort of "psuedo" transient plane, then a few of them would be gone as well.
Overall, I have to say the ending was very moving. Seiveril and Fflar always really caught my attention more than Areavin and company, so it was good to see them come into their own. I really liked how Ilsevele came into her own. Despite some loses, it really felt like a rousing victory for the elves, one that felt right, despite my initial reservations based on the spoiler alone. Context is everything.
While I am not saying there is anything wrong with this, a lot of times you have the status quo, a threat to it, then when the threat is defeated, a return to the status quo. This was a situation where the elves, despite losses, seem to have ended up better for the ordeal they went through.
Overall, really, really liked this book. |
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Beezy
Learned Scribe
USA
280 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2006 : 18:01:18
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I really enjoyed this series from start to finish. I really enjoyed the characters Seiveril, Fflar, Areavin and Ilsevele. I liked how Seiveril had to sacrifice everything to follow his heart and at the end he was happy to go be with his wife. I liked the characterization of Areavin because he was a contrast to a typical elf, he was impatient and quick to make decisions. The Areavain and Ilsevele break up was greatly forshadowed but I was very caught off guard with her and Fflar. It was very nice to get a trilogy about elves other than Drow, not that I have anything against them, I just enjoyed seeing sun, moon and wood elves attempting to re-assert themselves in the realms and play a major role.
I wish the series could have been a quartet because I felt a few sub plots could have been delevoped more and the end would not have been such a rush. I am not attempting to critize in anyway, as I am sure Mr. Baker probally wanted to do these things but ran out of space for them. I don't feel the Zhent sub plot was a waste of space at all. He could not have left the Zhents out of the picture completely because there is no way the Zhents would pass up such an opportunity to take the Dales, Hillsfar, or anything for that matter. With the extra pages I felt the epilogue would have been stronger and showed us more of the aftermath we wished to see., but I felt he did very well with his word limitations. This trilogy stands out as one of my recent favorites, I thought it was absolutely fantastic. |
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Arkhaedun
Senior Scribe
869 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2006 : 20:35:45
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It will be very interesting to see how the balance of power works between the Dales, Cormyr, Sembia, Cormanthyr, and the Moonsea.
I am curious as to how many fey'ri/daemonfey managed to escape. From the book it seems the answer would be none, but I imagine that a few might have survived if they deserted Sarya early.
I would also be very interested in seeing what kind of reclamation issues come up with in fighting off the creatures already in Myth Drannor. The end of the book definately implied that the ruins were not completely tamed by the fey'ri when they moved in.
Good conclusion to the trilogy, looking forward to follow up books/game material. |
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msatran
Learned Scribe
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2006 : 05:48:17
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I actually went back and took a look at the Lathander temple in the old Myth Drannor Boxed Set, and I am shocked that the Fey'ri even got past the door. :) My god, the Dawnstar is ridiculous. Meteor Swarm at 1/day per priest? Yes, that's right, you heard me. :)
Granted, Lathander has to grant that ability or decide to do so, but given the nature of the assault, why wouldn't he? |
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Final Gate: Chapters 15 - 18 & Epilogue
