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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Jun 2006 : 06:29:20
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| Youch. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Swordsage
Learned Scribe
149 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2006 : 12:41:19
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I think you are reading the Dawnstone description incorrectly. It is meteor swarm 1/day and any priest of Lathander can invoke it (although the text says that it is usually the High Priest). It is not 1/day PER priest.
The Swordsage
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RichardBaker
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
129 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2006 : 20:34:18
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I certainly intended for a few fey'ri to get away. They're great villains, I wouldn't want the race to be exterminated.
On the other hand, I'm afraid I used up the world's known supply of Dlardrageths.
quote:
Originally posted by Arkhaedun
It will be very interesting to see how the balance of power works between the Dales, Cormyr, Sembia, Cormanthyr, and the Moonsea.
I am curious as to how many fey'ri/daemonfey managed to escape. From the book it seems the answer would be none, but I imagine that a few might have survived if they deserted Sarya early.
I would also be very interested in seeing what kind of reclamation issues come up with in fighting off the creatures already in Myth Drannor. The end of the book definately implied that the ruins were not completely tamed by the fey'ri when they moved in.
Good conclusion to the trilogy, looking forward to follow up books/game material.
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Rich Baker
Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
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Conlon
Learned Scribe
Canada
132 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2006 : 22:47:56
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| Mr. Baker, I would again like to thank you for a very enjoyable read. I found the series to be riveting from start to finish. I wish only that you had been given the luxury of many more pages with which to weave your tale. I am curious as to why WotC allowed you only so many pages/books to tell this story. As others have mentioned, Myth Drannor is the crown jewel of the Forgotten Realms, and I'm sure that I, along with many others, would gleefully part with a few more dollars for a few more books in this series. |
My hopes are ashes, my dreams are dust. All my intentions mean nothing unless they are followed by action. |
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Mkhaiwati
Learned Scribe
USA
252 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2006 : 02:21:04
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I posted most of my comments elsewhere, but I will reiterate that I found this a good read and am looking forward to another series of Mr. Baker if he takes the same writing style from this series into a new one.
I also like the fact that the Zhents gained something, instead of the bumbling fools. I want to know what happens with the political structure with Sembia, too in the Dales. Come on, next sourcebook ....
I also tend to read these things from front to back, and have one final comment: the Phillies? 
At least pick a team over .500 
Mkhaiwati |
"Behold the work of the old... let your heritage not be lost but bequeath it as a memory, treasure and blessing... Gather the lost and the hidden and preserve it for thy children."
"not nale. not-nale. thog help nail not-nale, not nale. and thog knot not-nale while nale nail not-nale. nale, not not-nale, now nail not-nale by leaving not-nale, not nale, in jail." OotS #367 |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2006 : 08:15:02
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Rich, I did enjoy the entire series very much, lots of changes going on, here are a few questions that came up while I read it:
-The Tree of Souls was brought to Evermeet but never planted since it was considered a "fail-safe" in case the Elves wanted to return to mainland Faerūn. This happened when Amlaruil gave the tree to Lamruil to take with him to found a new home somewhere in the north. Where did the sapling come from? Was it a sapling from Lamruil's tree?
-Gold elves were always a quite haughty, if not to say conservative bunch, but the Seiveril, Ilsevele and Areavain were as progressive and free thinking as Moon elves, as were many (if not all) Gold elven members of the Crusade, otherwise they would not have left. Is this a general trend for Gold elves which just took a couple millenia to develop, or are these exceptions?
-Will we see more of the Star elves? |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2006 : 20:33:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
-Gold elves were always a quite haughty, if not to say conservative bunch, but the Seiveril, Ilsevele and Areavain were as progressive and free thinking as Moon elves, as were many (if not all) Gold elven members of the Crusade, otherwise they would not have left. Is this a general trend for Gold elves which just took a couple millenia to develop, or are these exceptions?
I'm not Rich Baker, but...
Just as not all people are the same, not all gold elves are the same, either. This is just my suggestion, but I would try to look at characters as individuals rather than in terms of how they conform (or not) to a stereotype. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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RichardBaker
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
129 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2006 : 21:20:02
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Where's the challenge in rooting for a team that wins all the time? Being a Phillies fan is like being a Cubs fan, except that instead of having decades of misery occasionally relieved by a shining hope that gets dashed to nothing at the last moment, you just have decades of misery. Hard to say which is worse.
I grew up on the Jersey shore, so my dad used to take me up to Philly for games a few times a summer. That was back in the days of Schmidt, Luzinski, Bowa, Rose, and Carlton. No matter how much you might want to, you can't ever really shake off that first baseball team you cheered for.
quote:
Originally posted by Mkhaiwati
I posted most of my comments elsewhere, but I will reiterate that I found this a good read and am looking forward to another series of Mr. Baker if he takes the same writing style from this series into a new one.
I also like the fact that the Zhents gained something, instead of the bumbling fools. I want to know what happens with the political structure with Sembia, too in the Dales. Come on, next sourcebook ....
I also tend to read these things from front to back, and have one final comment: the Phillies?
At least pick a team over .500
Mkhaiwati
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Rich Baker
Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
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RichardBaker
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
129 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2006 : 21:24:09
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I've been unhappy for a long time with the stereotypical "lawful evil" gold elf. One of the things I deliberately set out to do in the series was to rehabilitate the gold elves and demonstrate that they didn't need a moon elf leader in order to be good, charitable, compassionate, and tolerant of other races.
I have no immediate plans to do more with star elves, but I believe another author might be showing them off in an upcoming book.
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Rich, I did enjoy the entire series very much, lots of changes going on, here are a few questions that came up while I read it:
-The Tree of Souls was brought to Evermeet but never planted since it was considered a "fail-safe" in case the Elves wanted to return to mainland Faerūn. This happened when Amlaruil gave the tree to Lamruil to take with him to found a new home somewhere in the north. Where did the sapling come from? Was it a sapling from Lamruil's tree?
-Gold elves were always a quite haughty, if not to say conservative bunch, but the Seiveril, Ilsevele and Areavain were as progressive and free thinking as Moon elves, as were many (if not all) Gold elven members of the Crusade, otherwise they would not have left. Is this a general trend for Gold elves which just took a couple millenia to develop, or are these exceptions?
-Will we see more of the Star elves?
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Rich Baker
Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2006 : 22:47:21
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I like the new gold elves :) took 'em long enough to become this way.
Guess the Tree of Souls issue is a victim of the infernal NDA ;) |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2006 : 22:53:45
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They aren't "new" gold elves at all. If you look at the Evermeet supplement, the Cormanthyr supplement, and the Evermeet novel, you'll see a great number of good and noble Gold Elves. In the Evermeet supplement, we saw a Gold Elf Matriarch crying and kissing the head of a human bard, telling him how beautiful a song was.
There's this quote from Elaine Cunningham (previous Elf Queen) about this topic:
"First: Yes, I am deathly weary of all the talk about a novel-induced stereotype of "moon elf GOOD, gold elf BAD." This simplistic summation ignores the many noble, good-aligned gold elf characters in the FR books to focus on the few gold elf villains. It also fails to acknowledge the moon elf rogue Elaith Craulnober, who is perhaps the best known of the not-so-good moon elves. It ignores (or simply missed...) how the novel EVERMEET depicts moon elves as the authors of many of the elves' woes, often in rather ironic fashion. One example is the legend of the moon elf hero who marched into the Abyss to save her lover, thus drawing Lloth/Lolth's attention to the elves of Faerun. The popularity of moonblades amazes me, as does the fact that the brutality of the "moonblade solution" seems to be obscured by the magic swords' kewl factor. It is to ponder."
So.. Good Sunrise/Gold/Sun Elves have been around forever. Statistically, as of printed 1E and 2E NPC stats, "Evil" Sun Elves only outnumbered "Evil" Moon Elves by 7%. (Yes, I crunched the numbers myself.) The idea of there being a lot of Lawful Evil Sun Elves came primarily from player misinterpretation of isolated examples being generalized to the whole.
But it's good that they're getting a bit more good press in novels.
As an aside, note that Coronal Eltagrim was a Sun Elf, as was the Srinshee in her original incarnation. Lady Askhahala Durothil is a Sun Elf (one of the greatest of Elven Warriors ever!), Josidiah Starym, Captain of the Art, was a Sun Elf... Prince Durothil was a Sun Elf, and he pretty much ensured the survival of Tel'Quessir as a whole. And I'll note that the majority of these heroes were Lawful Good.
Conservative, elitist, and proud does not necessarily mean evil. That's very much a Western point of view centering around America's current socio-political climate. This is my Centrist, analytical view, at least. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
Edited by - GothicDan on 22 Jun 2006 23:16:43 |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2006 : 01:07:14
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I was just remembering the write up Ed did about the Neirdre family. Most of the mentioned characters were CG with a couple of CN black sheep. (Then again, the asker was looking for Sun Elves that could befriend humans.) It is interesting that the one LG character was the head of the house of Neirdre.
Many of the lawful characters that you listed were nobles or leaders of elves. My hyposis... Sun Elve leaders tend to Lawful, but the rank are chaotic. This fits the novel as the major Sun elf nobles are against the Crusade and are for the traditional Retreat idea.
Those sun elves that were for the Crusade were mainly the young, those longing to see the mainland. Most of which were more likely to be chaotic then Lawful as they had less invested in Evermeet.
The exception is Seiveril. He is a Sun Elf noble that was head of his house. My idealogy would make him Lawful. However, this is changes as he is an elven cleric of the Seldarine. Which makes him Chaotic by 3ed laws.
So we have the traditional elves represented by the ancient nobles opposed by the young and reckless elves of the young and those linked to the Elven churches.
Mr. Baker has kept with the traditional outlook with the Sun Elves, but found a loophole. One that uses 2ed lore in C:EoE where is states that young elves then to rebel against their elders in strange ways. Like eating meat or crusading. (And remember that a young sun elve could be seen as one under two centuries.)
Just some thoughts. |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2006 : 01:52:45
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
They aren't "new" gold elves at all. If you look at the Evermeet supplement, the Cormanthyr supplement, and the Evermeet novel, you'll see a great number of good and noble Gold Elves.
Agreed. I'm tired of the whole "evil gold elf" stereotype, myself. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2006 : 03:12:54
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It would still be nice to see more traditional Sun Elves portrayed in a "good" light, though. It's kind of misleading for readers who think that the only "good" Sun Elves are the "Chaotic" ones (those who act like Moon Elves).
It says little inherently as to Sun Elf culture itself; it makes readers think that Sun Elven tradition (as represented by the Nobles and Elders) are "bad" (since they opposed the protagonists).
But, can't have 'em all. :) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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msatran
Learned Scribe
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2006 : 03:49:22
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And by the way, that meteor swarm ability says that Lathander can grant the target, usually the high priest, the ability to cast meteor swarm once per day. It does not say Lathander can only do this once a day. He's A GOD. Sarya Dlardrageth and every other character in this book is NOT. I really disliked that this was glossed over. This was what made my players the angriest, so that's what I have to figure out what to do about.
As to all the comments about Gold Elves being "bad?" I'm sorry, I'm going to support Richard Baker when I think he's right. Let's take a look at the 3.5 specs for a minute. Their base alignment is still Chaotic GOOD, right? So they are still basically tending towards the side of righteousness.
I will now follow this up by saying "Just because you are GOOD does not necessarily mean that you have to be NICE to people. You can be good and be a complete jerk." If I had a 12,000 year tradition of behavior and wizardry, my beliefs on the arts arcane would certainly differ from those who were not steeped in ancient Elven Lore. Can you be an Olin Gisr and a member of the Eldreth Veluuthra? Sure you can. But most of them probably aren't.
I may be ranty, but at least I'm also sticking to my guns and being honorable. :)
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2006 : 04:09:55
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quote:
As to all the comments about Gold Elves being "bad?" I'm sorry, I'm going to support Richard Baker when I think he's right. Let's take a look at the 3.5 specs for a minute. Their base alignment is still Chaotic GOOD, right? So they are still basically tending towards the side of righteousness.
I was agreeing, except for the fact that I think this fact has been around for a long time. Most readers just don't care to notice it, because of things like the Eldreth Veluuthra (which has under a hundred members total, I might add, and the majority of which aren't necessarily Sun Elves).
But I do think they're more Lawful than they are Chaotic (and the NPC stats agreed with this). |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2006 : 04:17:54
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I don't want to continue taking this too far off topic, but I was going to mention that when I had the Eldreth Veluuthra show up in my campaign, I made sure that the band consisted of a moon elf and a few wood elves.
Oh, and game-wise, Seiveril could very easily be NG rather than CG. I didn't picture him as being particularly chaotic in his attitude, but that may just be me (and I will concede the point that it wouldn't be an issue in 2nd edition, since Corellon could have LG clerics back then, but hey, I still use 2nd edition alignment rules in my 3.5 game).
At any rate, it definatly was good to see heroic, clearly good elves being portrayed. Its not that I don't like evil elf characters, but once in a while you have to see the archetype portrayed to appreciate the deviations from it. |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2006 : 04:48:20
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I do agree there.
Good Sun Elves, even if they're atypical ones, are better than no good Sun Elves at all. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2006 : 08:24:53
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
They aren't "new" gold elves at all. If you look at the Evermeet supplement, the Cormanthyr supplement, and the Evermeet novel, you'll see a great number of good and noble Gold Elves. In the Evermeet supplement, we saw a Gold Elf Matriarch crying and kissing the head of a human bard, telling him how beautiful a song was.
There's this quote from Elaine Cunningham (previous Elf Queen) about this topic:
"First: Yes, I am deathly weary of all the talk about a novel-induced stereotype of "moon elf GOOD, gold elf BAD." This simplistic summation ignores the many noble, good-aligned gold elf characters in the FR books to focus on the few gold elf villains. It also fails to acknowledge the moon elf rogue Elaith Craulnober, who is perhaps the best known of the not-so-good moon elves. It ignores (or simply missed...) how the novel EVERMEET depicts moon elves as the authors of many of the elves' woes, often in rather ironic fashion. One example is the legend of the moon elf hero who marched into the Abyss to save her lover, thus drawing Lloth/Lolth's attention to the elves of Faerun. The popularity of moonblades amazes me, as does the fact that the brutality of the "moonblade solution" seems to be obscured by the magic swords' kewl factor. It is to ponder."
So.. Good Sunrise/Gold/Sun Elves have been around forever. Statistically, as of printed 1E and 2E NPC stats, "Evil" Sun Elves only outnumbered "Evil" Moon Elves by 7%. (Yes, I crunched the numbers myself.) The idea of there being a lot of Lawful Evil Sun Elves came primarily from player misinterpretation of isolated examples being generalized to the whole.
But it's good that they're getting a bit more good press in novels.
As an aside, note that Coronal Eltagrim was a Sun Elf, as was the Srinshee in her original incarnation. Lady Askhahala Durothil is a Sun Elf (one of the greatest of Elven Warriors ever!), Josidiah Starym, Captain of the Art, was a Sun Elf... Prince Durothil was a Sun Elf, and he pretty much ensured the survival of Tel'Quessir as a whole. And I'll note that the majority of these heroes were Lawful Good.
Conservative, elitist, and proud does not necessarily mean evil. That's very much a Western point of view centering around America's current socio-political climate. This is my Centrist, analytical view, at least.
Great words! I totally agree, especially with the "Conservative, elitist, and proud does not necessarily mean evil"-part.
Back to the topic. As I have not read the series myself yet (but surely will after this inspiration) I am wondering in which year of Dale Reckoning the story concludes? |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2006 : 12:42:46
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Chapter Eighteen--22 Eleasias, the Year of Lightning Storms (1374 DR)
Epilogue-- 20 Marpenoth, the Year of the Blazing Hand (1380 DR) |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
Edited by - Foxhelm on 23 Jun 2006 12:43:16 |
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Dremvek
Seeker
70 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2006 : 14:59:35
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| Though the epilogue is several years in the "future" from the rest of the story. |
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RichardBaker
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
129 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2006 : 17:41:18
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One little thing I did to reflect the essentially chaotic nature of elven society was to carve up the "army" into dozens of different warbands and musters. I wanted to make sure that no one thought that the Crusade consisted of a "national army" of Evermeet, because I felt pretty strongly that a national army would be highly anachronistic in elven society. So the Crusade actually consists of Small Knightly Order #1, Noble House and Retainers A, Self-Organized Band of Footsoldiers Z, and so forth. Parts of the Crusade are pretty big and well-organized companies (the Silver Guard, for instance) but other bands are quite small and elite, such as the handful of Eagle Knights who accompany Seiveril.
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
It would still be nice to see more traditional Sun Elves portrayed in a "good" light, though. It's kind of misleading for readers who think that the only "good" Sun Elves are the "Chaotic" ones (those who act like Moon Elves).
It says little inherently as to Sun Elf culture itself; it makes readers think that Sun Elven tradition (as represented by the Nobles and Elders) are "bad" (since they opposed the protagonists).
But, can't have 'em all. :)
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Rich Baker
Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2006 : 18:01:28
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That's pretty cool, Rich. Of course, Sun Elves tend towards lawfulness far more than other Elves do. As stated, Josidiah, Eltagrim, his heir, the Srinshee, Ulair the Silent, Lady Askhahala, etc., were all Lawful Sun Elves. And also when crunching the alignment numbers from printed NPCs, there were also far more Lawful Sun Elves than Moon Elves. I think this is in large part why in 2E, Corellon could have LG casters - because the majority of his clergy was Sun Elves. Also, this is reflected in how the Sun Elves respect strong rulers so much, why they feel with an eternal guilt the fact that one of their own murdered Zaor, and why they follow Queen Amlaruil with great zeal despite her being a Moon Elf (as per the Evermeet novel and supplement, at least).
Looking at Cormanthyr's troops shows pretty clear delineation among the ranks and orders; there was a certain amount of autonomy on smaller scales, but overall, there was still the Akh'Faern and Akh'Velarn, ruled by the Art-Major, Weapon-Major, etc. Individual Houses had their own troops and the like, but Cormanthyr also had a single, cohesive military unit. This was probably because Cormanthyr was a Realm that had been ruled by Sun Elves throughout its entire run.
But since I'm assuming the Crusade wasn't primarily/only Sun Elves, the Chaotic side of general Tel'Quessir alignment is fitting. :)
Mind you, if previous lore as to major Sun Elven NPCs' alignments and the like are no longer considered canon, and that it is assumed ALL Elves tend towards Chaos in the current edition, this makes more sense. But in that case, a lot probably would have gone differently in Elven history, at least as far as the Sun Elves are concerned. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
Edited by - GothicDan on 23 Jun 2006 18:19:09 |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2006 : 19:45:14
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Been thinking, a dangerous past time, I know. But with 3ed it is possible for Chaotic Good elves to have minor traits that are lawful. They even stat it in the PH, with a LG dwarf that has a greedy streak that would not be a LG trait. It is possible that a CG Sun Elf might repect Tradition, but especially the traditions that are the tradition of elves to fight for good and freedom. Just like a Lawful tradition bound Sun High Mage might have great Creativity and flights of fantasy (Usually Chaotic traits).
They respect the Queen as a symbol of the will of the Seldarine and an example to all elfkind. (In Evermeet the novel, it was a respect that she alone had earned. Her son was still seen as a lesser 'Gray'.)
I see some of the more Lawful elves having a Lawful Seldarine herecy. One that might be seen as an acceptable herecy. Like how Sun elves see Angharradh. They see it as a sort of acceptable herecy as a mistake of the Moon elves in understanding the true pantheon. One with the Lawful Seldarine, the Lawful Elves see it as them knowing the true gods better. Since LG and CG can get along with each other better than neutrals and evils, it could be more excepted.
Just some random thoughts I thought might be of interest. But back to the topic...
With the epilogue done as it is, will we be seeing the year of the elf in WotC and a Elves of Faerun Accessory. Perhaps with details on Evermeet, Cormanthyr, Evereska and the hidden Elven kingdom of the North? With details of elven magic and more details on High Magic? Perhaps either a newly detailed High Mage PrCl or a description of how Elven Epic spells are created? (To fit with the 2ed C:EoE I can see an expanded articule on Ritual Epic spells. With a minor bonus by limiting the spell users to elves only).
If Elves of Faerun was created, would you be helping out Mr. Baker? To the readers would you by it? |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2006 : 21:02:32
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quote:
Been thinking, a dangerous past time, I know. But with 3ed it is possible for Chaotic Good elves to have minor traits that are lawful. They even stat it in the PH, with a LG dwarf that has a greedy streak that would not be a LG trait. It is possible that a CG Sun Elf might repect Tradition, but especially the traditions that are the tradition of elves to fight for good and freedom. Just like a Lawful tradition bound Sun High Mage might have great Creativity and flights of fantasy (Usually Chaotic traits).
Freedom is not so much a Sun Elf thing, unless it's liberating the Elves from unlawful entities and the like.
quote:
They respect the Queen as a symbol of the will of the Seldarine and an example to all elfkind. (In Evermeet the novel, it was a respect that she alone had earned. Her son was still seen as a lesser 'Gray'.)
Correct, to a point. Note in the quote that I posted from Elaine, she makes it clear that the examples shown in her novel are not always right (as they are from a purely human point of view), and that they are just that - examples.
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I see some of the more Lawful elves having a Lawful Seldarine herecy. One that might be seen as an acceptable herecy. Like how Sun elves see Angharradh. They see it as a sort of acceptable herecy as a mistake of the Moon elves in understanding the true pantheon. One with the Lawful Seldarine, the Lawful Elves see it as them knowing the true gods better. Since LG and CG can get along with each other better than neutrals and evils, it could be more excepted.
This is indeed one way of correcting 3E's one-step-rule for deities which did not have it in previous editions (and for which it causes major issues, such as for the Sun Elves and their patron deities, specifically Corellon and Lebelas).
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With the epilogue done as it is, will we be seeing the year of the elf in WotC and a Elves of Faerun Accessory. Perhaps with details on Evermeet, Cormanthyr, Evereska and the hidden Elven kingdom of the North? With details of elven magic and more details on High Magic? Perhaps either a newly detailed High Mage PrCl or a description of how Elven Epic spells are created? (To fit with the 2ed C:EoE I can see an expanded articule on Ritual Epic spells. With a minor bonus by limiting the spell users to elves only).
If Elves of Faerun was created, would you be helping out Mr. Baker? To the readers would you by it?
If one (or preferrably more) of the following designers had a major hand in its creation: Ed Greenwood, Elaine Cunningham, or Steven Schend.
Not meaning to be offensive to any other designers - just giving an honest answer. :) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
Edited by - GothicDan on 23 Jun 2006 21:04:02 |
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msatran
Learned Scribe
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2006 : 16:59:59
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Well, In general, I'll say right now that Elves of Faerun would probably be FAR too much Elves for me. I like my nonhuman races mysterious and undefined.
But I'll be honest. If you're going to make a sourcebook like that, make a sourcebook for Dwarves, Halflings, Gnomes, or Half-Orcs. (Especially Half-Orcs, I'll be honest, this is the race that gets the shortest shrift or explanation in the Realms and that's the one I'd like to see most. Huge, huge arguments, both here and elsewhere, on what the status of Half-Orcs in the north is. Are they KOS outside of Waterdeep? Just how accepted are they? And this is BASIC stuff.) |
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Arkhaedun
Senior Scribe
869 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2006 : 18:39:01
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While the discussion of potential sorcebooks/game products dealing with this novel would make for a great discussion, this thread is intended for the discussion of the novel Final Gate. Let's get back on topic and if the potential of a sourcebook is something you want to continue, please start a new thread for it.
Thanks everyone . . . |
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hammer of Moradin
Senior Scribe
USA
758 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2006 : 03:50:15
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Rich, was the exclusion of dwarves in the series intentional, or were you just wanting to focus on elves? Not that you needed a good dwarf character, but at some point they would have been involved in at least some of the events, especially in the North and Silver Marches regions!
Oh, and I'm a Cubby.    
quote:
Originally posted by RichardBaker
Where's the challenge in rooting for a team that wins all the time? Being a Phillies fan is like being a Cubs fan, except that instead of having decades of misery occasionally relieved by a shining hope that gets dashed to nothing at the last moment, you just have decades of misery. Hard to say which is worse.
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"Hurling himself upon his enemies, he terrified them with slaughter!"
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium
Candlekeep proverb: If a thing is said often enough, fools aplenty will believe it to be true. |
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Akukakk
Acolyte
USA
15 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2006 : 05:01:41
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Yes, the book was a great read. Even though i didn't like some things about it. from a few chapters in, you can tell that Ilsevele and Araeivn were gonna break up. While be telegraphed it was a nice plot twist.
Though I would of like to see Araevin die in the Waymeet to make this a better story. I don't think he would just accept it like that. After hearing that she doesn't love him anymore, breaks the engagement, and falling in love w/ Flar. In the Epi you show he would still feel some pang about seeing them together, but that's about it. so killing of Araevin would of been a lot better then that.
I also liked the zhent plot during the whole trilogy, but it diffused at the end. sry to hear that u couldn't develop it more.
The ending was ok, but you left us hanging out on what happened b/w Sembia and Myth Drannor there. would of liked to have seen what kind of treaty they came up w/. also what someone also previously stated about the shrinshee.
Also, were Araeavin and Maresa just traveling together as buddies at the end? or was there something going on b/w for the last five yrs.
All that aside, this was a very enjoyable read and is in my top five for Forgotten Realms series
p.s. so when the waymeet got destroyed it pretty much took out a few thousand portals, (would be somewhere around 10k? from my guess from the book) so i wonder how this will affect the world at large. Even evermeet for that pt. |
Edited by - Akukakk on 26 Jun 2006 05:07:41 |
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msatran
Learned Scribe
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2006 : 15:12:54
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Well, from a Gm's perspective, it does make the world easier to run, but all portals don't pass through the waymeet. And, of course, with the number of wizards crafting in the Realms and using the Craft Wondrous Item feat, that leaves you with about 90,000 or so remaining. Heck, Priamon Raksek probably hammers his way through a couple a year. (Craft Epic Wondrous Item, 10000 gp/day, no problem!)
Which, of course only proves that all people who make doorways and archways are secretly evil...:)
As for Richard Baker being a Phillies Fan, I know one of the people who started the "Let's Go Flyers" at a Phillies home game when they were doing so badly it looked like the world was going to collapse underneath them and suck them into a vortex... |
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Final Gate: Chapters 15 - 18 & Epilogue
