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Inquisitor
Acolyte
Germany
42 Posts |
 Posted - 11 May 2006 : 22:59:14
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Well I just finished the Ruin and think I might leave some comments here. I am surprised that I am the first, at least I haven't seen a thread about it.
You might remember be from previous discussions that I always complained about how weak dragons were portrayed and I have to say that this book finally does them justice. Especially in the beginning you get the feeling that taking on even a single dragon is a massive endevour.
But there are also some not so good things about the book if you ask me. One thing would be the many fights which take up a big part of the book. While that may be appropriate for the last book of this serie, it also means that there is not much character development. Especially Raryn and Dorn after the final battle could have been fleshed out much better.
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Also in the end how easily Sammaster deals with all the dragons is a bit exeggerated if you ask me. First it is mentioned that he has not many combat spells and then he kills dozends of dragons with his little finger. And why the Talons didn't simply topple his tower and instead attacked him directly is beyond me.
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Edited by - Inquisitor on 11 May 2006 23:18:25
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2006 : 03:53:10
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| That's very fast for you, damn, I haven't even started getting my own yet. But the spoiler about Sammaster seemed nice. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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Inquisitor
Acolyte
Germany
42 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2006 : 15:59:55
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Yes, its amazing how many pages you can cover in an 8 hour reading marathon.
And don't read too much into the spoiler. He doesn't play a very big part in the book. |
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the obsolete
Acolyte
USA
14 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2006 : 22:51:32
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| maybe all those spells sammaster cast came from some device he had stored on himself. that we werent made aware of. anyways yeah for being the catalyst of this new rage sammaster doesnt appear often. i did like reading about some of those extra-dimensional dragons. like you also mentioned some of the parts could of been developed more. just with the things they didnt expand on would mean need for another 4th novel. anyways it cept me wanting to read to the end, seeing how things play out. |
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Inquisitor
Acolyte
Germany
42 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2006 : 16:30:00
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Even if, Sammaster definatly was ready for battle, especially considering his "Secret Weapon Spell" and as he *Spoiler* Single handly takes on the whole Talon of Justice and kills a majority of them without taking a scratch*Spoiler End*
Of course much of his powress came from *Spoiler* The immobile defense field anchored at the tower *Spoiler end* but even without it with the support of the rest of his troops he could have ben very powerfull in open battle. |
Edited by - Inquisitor on 15 May 2006 16:33:48 |
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RAKKIR
Seeker
61 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2006 : 18:00:58
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I still came away from the Ruin with a bad taste in my mouth. Sure, I enjoyed it...but DARN IT!!
Sammaster was slain (maybe, kinda, sorta) and played like a foolish chump. The whole little nod to the obvious, at the end, where Sammaster "remebers" that "oh yeah, my phalactery is in there along with the key to my plans...and they're in there messing around with it....guess I should have given that my highest priority...ohh well"
Plus, all the evil dragons were total chumps as far as combat. I hate how the good guys in WOTC novels always have to win...(I thought this situation was going to change from the old TSR days...AHEM)...and, not only do they always win, they always do so because the 'bad guys' are always played like fools. Seriously, the bad guys almost always underutilize their powers, and almost NEVER use any kind of CUNNING or effective combat strategy.
And it is unfortunate that there is always some excuse as to why this is. It's always "because they are too arogant to think they can be beaten" or "their arrogance causes them to underestimate their opponent" or "the madness of the rage was gnawing at their minds."
I can only guess that in Ed Greenwood's campaign the bad guys aren't wannabe chumps. I'm still trying to figure out how the Great Wyrm white dracolich managed to be defeated in mellee...arggh.
Time and time again in this book...I read how the 'good guys' would fan out and surround the dragon. The dragon would go after one, but then the other guy would inflict some damage on it...and the dragon would stop going after the first guy to turn on the second. So, instead of attacking effectively the dragon just allowed itself to be baited into pirouting in circles? Hardly likely.
Do you guys feel that, in your campaigns, Dorn and his allies would have done as well as they did in the books if -YOU- had been playing the evil dragons and/or Sammaster?
We'll just take the one combat alone where Dorn and his allies fight the white Dracolich in the middle of the Dracolich's army. How would that have ended in your campaigns?
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Inquisitor
Acolyte
Germany
42 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2006 : 18:12:26
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| You have to remember that in novels there are no HP. When a dragon hits he kills, he doesn't take some HP away and has to keep attacking. So there is not that disadvantage for switching opponenty like in D&D. |
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RAKKIR
Seeker
61 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2006 : 22:08:17
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Hello,
In response to this reply:
"You have to remember that in novels there are no HP. When a dragon hits he kills, he doesn't take some HP away and has to keep attacking. So there is not that disadvantage for switching opponenty like in D&D."
A lot of the time in the novels the people are hit by one of the dragon's various attack forms and keep fighting. So I respectfully disagree with the premise that a hit in a novel is a gauranteed kill. Dorn in particular gets walloped multiple times.
However, assuming it WAS a gauranteed kill, it would be even MORE of an incentive for the dragon to deal with one person at a time. Then the dragon could assume, once you hit your target, that target is down permanetly.
In the novels the dragons are doing this:
1: Allow self to be surrounded (stupidly)...
2: Go person A into a position where they can't dodge/evade and are sure to be killed with your next attack...
3: Get attacked by person B on your flank...
4: Suddenly ignore person A and spin to attack Person B....
5: Get person B into a position where they can't dodge/evade are are sure to be killed your next attack...
6: Get attacked by person A on your flank...
7: Suddenly ignore person B and spin to attack Person A...
8: Lather, rinse, and repeat.
Essentially the dragon keeps spinning around in place, taking innefectual swipes at people and doing no real damage.....and is eventually hacked to death by the mellee fighters.
The mellee combat also tottally ignores the fact the dragon can fly. I find it HIGHLY spurious that the dragon would stand around on the ground and mellee much at all, let alone until it had ALLOWED itself to be, quite literally, hacked to death.
Analogies to such actions would be like the pilot of a modern figher aircraft LANDING and jumping out of his plane to attack with grenades, rather than hitting his target from the air. Or it would be like one of us, going into a fight we knew was life or death, and choosing to tie our legs together first.
These are absurd notions that present the dragons as clueless, innefectual, chumps.
While the heros of the book do fight dragons/dragon-kin that can't fly...there are multiple examples that follow the format I describe above. And, in only in a few of those examples is the dragon somehow restrained from flight via spell or injury.
But, let's assume the dragon is somehow bound to the ground through a spell perhaps. Why would it allow itself to be surrounded? Especially as the SLOW dragon species have move speeds that are faster than human's (40' for the dragon versus 30' for the human). Humans in heavy armor, halflings, dwarves, and gnomes are even WORSE off as they have moves of 20'. So they are HALF as fast as the dragon now. Furthermore, some dragon species have moves of 60'.
This means the even a 'grounded' dragon can literally back away from the fight fast enough to keep it's opponents in front of it...all in nice juicy breath weapon range.
While it may not be appropriate to apply game game mechanics to novels, the dragon could be taking 'half-moves' (coupled with a 'standard action' such as an attack) while the humans had to take 'full move' actions just to stay within mellee distance and therefore forgoe their attacks.
Furthermore, the 'grounded' dragon could choose a 'run' (to put distance between itself and its mellee attackers) and the unaided humans couldn't keep up -at all-.
And in several of these combats I refer to the dragon was fully able to move and wasn't "hemmed in" inside a cave or what not.
It's for these reasons (the examples of the mellee fighters in the novels slaying dragons as they do) I am left scratching my head and going "Wait a minute...what kinda crock is this..."
I can provide others as well.
Now, this is not to say I dislike the novels. I'm not bashing them. I read them and enjoyed them. And I understand writing a novel is a difficult task that is often underappreicated. However, I -personally- hate to see powerful, supposedly inteligent and DEADLY opponents, beaten because they have the mental capacity of Bozo the clown. It's like the dragons are mentally disabled or something.
So, what do you guys think?
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Inquisitor
Acolyte
Germany
42 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2006 : 22:33:20
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If the dragon would fight like you want it to it would die even faster because while the dragon is pursing foe A who puts everything into defense, foe B, who is already in a good attack position, is free to hammer at the dragon over and over again inflicting grivious wounds.
Also you forget that in all battles the dragons were vastly outnumbered. Either it was a single dragon against the heroes or some dragons against an army. In both cases backing away gives the enemy only more chances to use their ranged weapons or magic. SO you have the choice. Either go in hard inflicting as much damage as possible and trust on your armor and frightful presence to keep you alive and route the enemy or back up and be picked out of the sky by swarms of arrows and lightning bolts. |
Edited by - Inquisitor on 15 May 2006 22:37:15 |
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RAKKIR
Seeker
61 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2006 : 01:25:31
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Hello,
I am sure the targeted has a high probability of putting everything into defense. So here is an example of ONE thing a dragon could do
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ROUND 1
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Dragon uses "snatch" afeat on opponent (a normal bite or claw attack) and begins a grapple. Here are the grapple modifiers for a Great Wyrm White Dragon (an example combat from the book.)
+45 Base Attack Bonus
+10 for Strength
+12 Gargantuan Size
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+67 To Grapple. Meaning unless the dragon rolls a 1, it's going to win.
Now the dragon's opponent is "grappled" (not yet pinned) as a standard action (because of the dragon's snatch ability) the dragon uses its other standard action to "move while grappled" using its flying ability. Since the dragon is "moving while grappled" it is moving at half speed. Which means it is "only" moving at a speed of 125. The other mellee people can' no longer "hammer" the dragon because its far away.
The dragon's opponent, who is grappled, gets to attack the dragon with with a light weapon this round. So they can't use their big sword they have been "hammering" the dragon with. This means their damage capcity is massively reduced as well as any specialization feats they have as they are NOT likely specialized in a "light" weapon. Moreover they have to use an action to pull out this weapon so that reduces them to one attack. (Or if they won initiative they attacked you normally that round before you began the grapple which is a possiblity that cannot be ignored.)
The round ends. Depending upon where the spellcaster is the dragon may already be out of Lightning Bolt Range at this point since it moved 125 ft and the bolt has a 120 ft rangeit just shrugs off the damage as best yit can. However, it is likely the mage already got their spells off earlier in the round before you left the round anyways. Since the fighters were "hammering" the dragon they have no attackes left in which to pull their bows out this round.
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Round 2
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Next round you continue moving away and automatically do do bite or claw damage as part of your "snatch" ability. Depending upon who won inatiative one of two things happens:
1: If dragon wion the initiative he 'pins' his opponent this round (he will win the pin attempt unless he rolls a 1 basically) and the opponent can no longer even attack with the light weapon.
2: The opponent gets a round of attacks with their light weapon then is pinned.
The dragon is now out of most spell range and any ranged weapons (assuming they pierce your armor) are quickly falling out or range. Furthermore, the fighters had to use one of their actions this round to draw their bows so they don't get a full attack with them. Meanwhile the dragon automatically does bite or claw damage to the pinned opponent. And if the dragon feels like it, it breaths on the pinned opponent and they get no save (as per snatch rules.) Perhaps though, the opponent is partially immune/immune to your breath weapon, but the wyrm is still crushing it still crushing them.
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Round 3
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The dragon is increasingly moving out of range of the rest of the opponent's party, and has a pinned opponent. The dragon is automatically doing bigtime crush/bite damage. Realistically, unless the opponent can activate a magic item (and being pinned the dragon is preventing them from speaking a command word at its discretion per the pin rules) and teleport away they are not going to break the pin anytime soon. This repeats as long as necessary or until conditions change.
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Round N
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Baring an unlikely escape the dragon has killed the pinned opponent. The dragon continues to circle well outside of spell/archery range and simply -waits- for all the buffs and warding/protecting spells the opponents have cast upon themselves to fade. Maybe the wyrm makes a couple more "feint" attacks (still staying out of the opponent's range) to try and goad opponents into casting more buffs on themselves it can wait out again.
Or it amuses itself by droping stuff on people from high enough it is outside of range. (These will likely miss but you never know.)
While the dragon is waiting our the parties buffs, or dropping stuff on them, it taunts the opponents about how "good their ally tasted" and how "due to their impertance I will now slaughter a village as a lesson" or "I'm going to turn your friend into an undead minion to serve me as a slave for an eternity of suffering...." or "I'm going to speak with your friend's spirt and find out where your families live and kill them...I will take particular pleasure in eating your mates and the tender flesh of your younglings" etc... The dragon, of course, stays well out of range while it does this and watches to make sure the opponents aren't up to something below.
Or it simply goes goes elsewhere taking the body of its would be dragon slayer with it to exam at leisure, take magic from, eat, etc..Whatever the case it makes resurecction attempts difficult for the remaining party.
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Now, is this a "foolproof" strategy for the dragon? No.
Can this strategy be beaten by the enemy? Perhaps.
Is it the best strategy for the dragon in this situation? Perhaps not.
Is it necessarily the one a dragon SHOULD use in every situation? Not really.
Can a scenario be created where the dragon has no chance? Certainley.
However, with said I still think it is a much better strategy than what was used by the dracolich in "The Ruin" where it simply charged in ineffectually and got pounded.
I feel I have also shown the the threat of archery and most spells can quickly be escaped by a dragon that wants to. Very few attack spells have ranges of thousands of feet even if they are "extended". (Meteor Swarm is one of those -perhaps-, but if you are fighting 18th level mages the dragon has other problems regardless. But, none of the people the Dracolich fought in Dorn's party had Meteor Swarm anyways.)
It's for reasons like this I still say "standing around and fighting while your opponents surround you and hack" is a foolish move and should be avoided by the dragon most of the time.
*Winks* Now you get to point out the flaws in this strategy.
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Inquisitor
Acolyte
Germany
42 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2006 : 06:13:58
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| With that tactic the dragon only kills one solders (from hundereds) while it has to expose itself to 3 or more rounds of ranged fire/spells. Not very effective. |
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RAKKIR
Seeker
61 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2006 : 18:31:15
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Hello,
The scenario that is being proposed (killing one soldier from hundreds) supposes three things to be true:
1: The dragon is already on the ground.
2: The dragon has allowed a hostile army composed of spellcasters and archers to move within spell/archery range and stood by while they did so.
3: The dragon has, presumably, already allowed soldiers (or at least high level characters) of this army within mellee range.
This scenario is one in which the dragon is almost gauranteed to suffer horribly, if not be killed outright. It already stacks the deck MASSIVELY against the dragon. This is a custom scenario designed to get a dragon killed.
However, MOST importantly, that is NOT the scenario that happened in "The Ruin" where the White Great Wyrm White Dracolich fought Dorn and his allies. I assume this is the scenario being discussed, because it is the only battle where hundreds of soldiers were involved.
We know the battle involving the Great Wyrm White Dracolich has the following facts associated with it:
1: The Dracolich's primary mission is to slay the druids which are the core of Sossal's last major resistance.
2: The Dracolich's secondary mission is to slay the rangers/fighters who are guarding Sossal's druids. It needs to be stressed this is of secondary importance as, without the druids, the rangers/fighters resistance is, essentially, crippled.
3: The Dracolich commands multiple white dragons and various other dragon subtypes which follow his command.
4: The Dracolich also commands an army of Frost Giants, humans, and dwarves. This army serves out of compulsion and fear of the White Queen (A 'chosen' of Auril). This army does not yet realize that the Dracolich has already slain the White Queen and taken her place.
5: The dracolich's forces face a resistance composed of Sossal rangers and fighters, who guard a core of Sossal druids.
6: The dracolich also faces the "heroes" of the story: Dorn the Half-Golem fighter, Will the halfling rogue, Pavel the Cleric, Raryn the dwarf, Jivex the fairy-dragon, and the high druid who is the center of the Sossal druids circle.
7: Before the battle between the Dracolich and the hero's begins, the dracolich's forces have managed to: Slay some of the sossal druids, greviously wound the high druid, and kill many of the defending Sossal rangers and druids.
With those facts in mind here is what transpires:
Will the halfling realizes that the defending Sossal rangers, druids, and his friends have had their numbers decimated by the repeated attacks of the Dracolich's forces. He realizes things are grim and that their defenses may very will not survive the next rush by the Dracolich's forces. Will realizes that, if he informs the dracolich's compeled soldiers that the White Queen (their former leader) is dead, they may turn on the Dracolich and attack it themselves (in order to gain their freedom). Essentially his proposal is that the Sossalians team up with the conscript army of the Dracolich to rid themselves of the Dracolich once and for all and regain their freedom.
So, Will and Jivex sneak into the Dracolich's forces and begin spreading the news that the White Queen is dead and they should turn on the Dracolich. Seeing something "amiss" the Dracolich lands and hears what Will is doing. At this point Will calls for "parley" with the Dracolich even as he continues to tell the Dracolich's forces that the White Queen is dead.
Here is where the Dracolich behaves like an inept chump for the first time. Why does the Dracolich bother to "parley" with Will? He has certainley no obligation to do so, and is not obligated by some 'rules of war' to observe some parley that -HE- never even called for. Furthermore, even if he was, Will has violated any PRETENSE he had of a true parley by spreading the rumors that he has about the White Queen's death. The dracolich should have immediately attacked Will and slain him.
Instead, the Dracolich allows will to continue spreading the rumors for a moment longer then confidentally admits to his conscript army "Why yes, I did kill the White Queen. But if you were afraid of her, and I killed her, you should be EVEN MORE afraid of me...so you still better do what I say..or else." The Dracolich should have done this regardless, to maintain order, but after slaying Will. At this point the Dracolich's conscript army is still willing to follow the Dracolich's orders because what he says IS true and they HAD better be afraid of him.
At this point Will's companions (Dorn, Pavel, The Sossal High Druid, and the dwarf) appear at the parley through magic. (To be fair a few more people, some of the rangers perhaps. may have teleported in but I don't remember specifically.) A large group of powerful enemy combatants has, univitedly and unexpectedly, used magic to appear in the middle of this supposed 'parley.' Moreover, your primary target (the Sossal High Druid who you have been trying to get all day) is now right in front of you.
This is where the Dracolich plays the part of Bozo the clown a second time. At this point, the unexpected appearance of these enemies would be construed by any halfway inteligent creature as an attack, and that the whole 'parley' thing had been a ruse to lure the Dracolich down so he could be ambushed by this attack.
An intelligent Dracolich might have immediately made a 'snatch' at the druid (as described above) and flown away so that his army (which is still compelled to fight for him at this point) could have dealt with Dorn and his allies. Remember, the High Druid has been depleting his spells all day, is already seriously wounded, and is therefore at a large disadvantage. The Dracolich KNOWS this to be the case he has been observing this all day.
Furthermore, even if the Dracolich -DID- doubt the loyalty of his army at this point, he still maintains the loyalty of his dragon allies so could use them to attack Dorn and company.
Remember, the Dracolich is here to kill the druids primarily. Not to kill Dorn and his allies. His weakened, primary, target is right in front of him and he does nothing. However, weakened or not, this is still a high-level druid and therefore, potentially, the Dracolich's biggest threat. Pavel the cleric is likely the dracolich's second biggest threat as he may be able to turn the dracolich. A smart dracolich would decide which of these to to take out first. Probably the druid as he is the biggest unknown factor here, and is, after all, the Dracolich's primary target.
Instead, the dracolich acts stupidly for the third time and continues this farcical 'parley.' Let us ask ourselves why from the Dracolich's perspective?
1: You never had any true reason to parley to -begin with-, after all, your forces were near victory which is the whole reason why Will started this 'parley.'
2: A 'hit team' of the enemies best combantants has suddenly teleported within mellee range of attacking you.
3: The primary target you have been TRYING to get to all day is now within range, and is standing there weakened.
4: Even though Will continues to spread the rumors of the White Queen's death, it DOESN'T MATTER because what you said about "fear me more than her" is, quite frankly, the ABOSOLUTE TRUTH and your compelled mions -KNOW IT-.
5: The enemy appears to be spreading out slowly to flank you even as they 'parley' with you.
Now, the Dracolich demonstrates his mental deficiancy for the fourth time today.
Will challenges the Dracolich to -single- combat. The terms of the deal are basically this:
If the Dracolich wins the druids and rangers surrender, and the Dracolich gets to "keep" the loyalty of his army. If Will and his allies win, then it means the Dracolich has been killed/defeated.
Any rational mind sees though this instantly. Superchump Dracolich does not however. Quite frankly, the dracolich has already won. The druid's army is near defeat and his army is STILL compelled to serve him out of fear. Everything Will is offering he already has or can take anyways. Furthermore, even if the compelled army were not to follow his commands to attack Dorn's group while he finishes off the Druid, they have demonstrated they still don't dare to attack him. So there are no worry of ranged attacks of spells from the compelled troops. Also, irregardless of the army's loyalty, the Dracolich still commands the loyalty of the remaining dragons and dragon-kin, which is in itself a poweful force. Of course, being the Superchump he is....the Dracolich agrees to this farce.
Combat ensues...during which dracolich remains on the groupd, and is, unsiprisingly, severely beaten by Dorn, Dorn's allies, and a 'suprise move' by the druid when he assumes dragon-shape himself. But, even then, it is only when the Dracolich is already near death already that his soldiers turn on him and attack themselves. The dracolich never thinks to summon his white dragons when his troops turn on him of course.
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For this scneario to play out as it did the Dracolich had to act stupidly, without common sense, and against its own best intrests MULTIPLE times in order to be defeated.
The Dracolich had been fighting all day to get to those druids, and when the head druid was delivered to him, on a silver plate, already wounded, he did the worst possible thing he could have.
This is one example where one of the main enemy protaganists of the story is defeated, not so much by the hero's heroism, but by his own stupidity. This cheapens the power, and danger, that should be associated with an enemy like a Dragon into something akin to playing checkers with a 5 year old.
Please tell me what you guys think. I am willing to listen to ideas why the above might not be true. I am not set in my ways on this...but I just don't see how the above is not the case.
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Inquisitor
Acolyte
Germany
42 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2006 : 19:34:25
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Your analysis is faulty in multiple ways.
First as the queen was already dead the dracolich wasn't ordered anymore to kill the druids. His new goal was to conquer that area and for that he needs an army.
Also the other white dragons were already dead so no support from that side. And lastly only the dwarves were pressed into service, the other ones like the frost giants derver her voluntary (at least I had that impression but I don't have the book with me to look it up).
First mistake: You probably will argue against that but this behaviour fits perfectly with the dragons personality displayed thoughout the book. After becoming a dracolich he has a huge ego. Also he wants to boast with his victory about the queen.
Second Mistake: At that point the army wouldn't have followed his commands without questions anymore and he needs the army when he wants to conquer the land. Now attacking blindly would have made them even more suspicious. Also as I said before killing the druids wasn't his mission anymore and in the state the druid was in he wasn't a big threat (at least it looked like it)
Third Mistake. What was the other option? The loyality of the army was questionable so the dracolich couldn't know if they continued to fight on his side. He now needed to act very superior and attacking in the middle of a conversation doesn't fit that. Also again his huge ego played a role in there.
Fourth Mistake: The dracolich had no other option. The only reason the army would follow him is because of his power and when declining a fight with some exhausted humans he would loos all respect and loyality from the army. The same for retreating in the fight. He would loose his army. And as he can't die anyway why not go berserk? If the druid hadn't gone into dragonshape (a very big dragon I might add) he probably would have won.
Again, there are no white dragons left and don't forget that he is only fighting a company of the sosal army. Loosing his army here would mean defeat as the enemy still has troops in reserve. |
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Osieu
Acolyte
26 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2006 : 03:23:40
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Hi all,
May I ask some more details about Sammaster in this book? How's he defeated? What did he manage to achieve before that? And is it possible for him to return again in the future?
Thank you very much!  |
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Inquisitor
Acolyte
Germany
42 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2006 : 06:18:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Osieu
Hi all,
May I ask some more details about Sammaster in this book? How's he defeated? What did he manage to achieve before that? And is it possible for him to return again in the future?
Thank you very much!
**Spoiler** Sammaster only appears in the last chapter in the final battle. He summons a lot of planar dragons to battle the good dragons and directs them from an tower while invisible because "he is not ready for combat". But when discovered and attacked by the Talon of justice he single handly slays nearly all of them (and that is called unprepared?) and he is going to do a lot more damage when he transform into a draclolich but then his phylactery is destroyed who is part of the device to controll the rage.
Rules wise Sammaster would finally be dead, but brimstone suspects that he had a backup plan. But I think that is only a way so that DMs can include him into their games. I don't expect him to appear in any official novel anymore. |
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El Magnifico Uno
Learned Scribe
113 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2006 : 09:11:54
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Heh... Another funny thing in the book - Iyraclea the Ice Queen.. How does a Chosen of Auril get killed by a death spell?.. From a WHITE dracolich of all things, which are not exactly known for their smarts or fantastic spellcasting power.. I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume this is the same Iyraclea that is in the Epic Level Handbook, is 25th level, has been around for over 1000 years, and has accumulated "minor" magic items like the Gatekeepers Crystal which she used to destroy Myth Ondath.. Who knows, maybe this is another Wulgreth thing.. In any case, assuming that it is the uber-powerful Ice Queen, how does she suddenly become insanely stupid?..
"Oh I'm going to start digging into Sammaster's secrets, but I'm not going to bring every possible magic item in my arsenal with me. Sure he could have easily kicked the snot out of me and all my retainers when he showed up at my castle, but this time it will be different so I won't need ANY sort of protective items at all. Least of all something that would protect me from save-or-die spells, because Auril knows I could NEVER encounter something like that from a super-uber mega-lich. In fact my 1000+ years of existence has proven to me that I don't need a single protection at all because I'm a villain and thus inherently arrogantly stupid."
Right.. And mind you, she's a 25th level caster versus the comparatively meager abilities of a great white wyrm who ranks in as a lowly 13th level caster.. Yet still, this dracolich lich manages to beat her down in spell combat.. Thusly, one of the most powerful beings in Faerun is killed in a casual off-hand sort of way to act merely as a plot device to make the big bad dragon appear all that much bigger and badder... |
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Inquisitor
Acolyte
Germany
42 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2006 : 15:38:06
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quote:
Originally posted by El Magnifico Uno
Thusly, one of the most powerful beings in Faerun is killed in a casual off-hand sort of way to act merely as a plot device to make the big bad dragon appear all that much bigger and badder...
Compared to how Lareth died she went done in a heroic combat. But she wasn't a chosen, at least the Epic level Handbook doesn't list her as one and the equipment she has is also not that impressive.
I have the feeling that she, and many other things were victims to the page limit WotC set. The whole book seems to be squeezed together to me.
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Edited by - Inquisitor on 17 May 2006 15:43:12 |
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El Magnifico Uno
Learned Scribe
113 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2006 : 16:45:15
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| Yeah, got that impression too.. Either page limit or Mr Byers just got real bored with the story and just decided to bust it out quick.. |
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Inquisitor
Acolyte
Germany
42 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2006 : 16:55:49
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| I don't think that was the case. I asked him in the chamber of sages and he didn't sounded very thrilled about the page limit. But then, the net is very bad for reading emotions out of a forum post. |
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RAKKIR
Seeker
61 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2006 : 17:56:47
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Hello everybody,
Yes, I agree, the page limit of the book sucked. I wish it had been much longer because it DID seem squeezed.
Now I would like to take the time to answer some of the arguments put forth.
quote:
First as the queen was already dead the dracolich wasn't ordered anymore to kill the druids. His new goal was to conquer that area and for that he needs an army.
Also the other white dragons were already dead so no support from that side. And lastly only the dwarves were pressed into service, the other ones like the frost giants derver her voluntary (at least I had that impression but I don't have the book with me to look it up).
The Ice Queen wanted to take over Sossal and to do so she knew she had to take out the druids. Therefore, if the Dracolich wanted to take over Sossal, he too had to take out the druids. Specifically, when he was questioning the outer planar entity about the gathering of Sossal forces the Dracolich asked where the High Druid was. He didn't ask about Dorn or his allies, he asked specifically where the High Druid was.
Also, the white dragons were NOT already dead. After the dracolich is defeated Will specifically worries about the remaining "white dragons and drakes" in the dracolich's army attacking. Since the Will is worrying about "dragons" and "drakes" this means there is at least TWO of each remaining, indicating the army has at least FOUR dragons that could have aided in the Dracolich's defense. Will is fortunate, because the dragons and drakes choose to fly off instead. This is specifically mentioned in the book so there is no doubt the Dracolich had -at least- four dragons/dragon-kin left to him.
quote:
First mistake: You probably will argue against that but this behaviour fits perfectly with the dragons personality displayed thoughout the book. After becoming a dracolich he has a huge ego. Also he wants to boast with his victory about the queen.
The behavior does fit with what you might expect of some dragons. They have a reputation for letting their ego best them at times. However, the dracolich is stated, at the begining of the book, to be smarter than most of his kind since he is far older. Apparently not smart enough NOT to let his ego trip him up. Also, if the dracolich simply wanted to boast of his victory why wait until he was confronted about it to do so? Why not boast earlier?
quote:
Second Mistake: At that point the army wouldn't have followed his commands without questions anymore and he needs the army when he wants to conquer the land. Now attacking blindly would have made them even more suspicious. Also as I said before killing the druids wasn't his mission anymore and in the state the druid was in he wasn't a big threat (at least it looked like it)
quote:
Third Mistake. What was the other option? The loyality of the army was questionable so the dracolich couldn't know if they continued to fight on his side. He now needed to act very superior and attacking in the middle of a conversation doesn't fit that. Also again his huge ego played a role in there.
quote:
Fourth Mistake: The dracolich had no other option. The only reason the army would follow him is because of his power and when declining a fight with some exhausted humans he would loos all respect and loyality from the army. The same for retreating in the fight. He would loose his army. And as he can't die anyway why not go berserk? If the druid hadn't gone into dragonshape (a very big dragon I might add) he probably would have won.
The army probably would have still followed his commands because they had no choice. Will even admits that the army probably won't turn on the Dracolich, or outright disobey him, but the army "-may- start deserting in ones and twos" (Will's words emphasis added). This is far from a full fledged mutiny. There is a high probablility it could be stopped by a few "examples" to drive home the fact that the army who served (without desertion) under the White Queen better STILL serve the dracolich without desertion too...or else.
Remember howerver, the only way the army was able to beat the Dracolich was when:
1: They already -surrounded- him and were up close.
2: He had already been weakened fighting the Ice Queen (according to Will at least.)
3: He had already been weakened by fighting Dorn and his allies.
4: He had been prevented from flying by one of the Druid's spells.
5: He had been weakned by fighting off the High Druid who had attacked him AND used a breath weapon on him.
6: He did not use the aid of his four (if not more) remaining dragons.
7: He had been magically silenced.
Anotherwards, if he hadn't already been battered, beaten, unable to fly, and magically silenced it is likely they could not have beaten him. Therefore, I think he could still could have maintained control of the army by making a few "examples."
The caveat to this is the -guess- by Will that some of the Frost Giants might have actually been serving the Ice Queen out of loyalty and not conscription.
If this was truly the case, and the giants were going to desert, no matter what since the Ice Queen was dead, then there was STILL no point in accepting Will's challenge because the army was going to break up regardless.
So, one of two things was going on:
1: The dragon was stupid for accepting the challenge because his army was already going to break up, so why "fight fair" at that point anyways?
2: He knew the Giants would still serve out of fear....which still left no reason to accept Will's challenge the way he did.
If he'd been smart, he would have simply fought differently, killed the High Druid, dealt with Dorn and them, and then told his army: Look...I killed all these people who messed with me, AND the white queen....me and the dragons under my command are are going to make sure you stay loyal..or else. And, if I find people deserting their companions will pay the price for it...so you had beter start policing yourself.
I'm not saying the dragon was foolish to fight Dorn and his allies at all, just foolish to do so the way he did. |
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RAKKIR
Seeker
61 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2006 : 18:00:03
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*Sigh*
Well, ignore the quotes (I see I misspelled them) as, hopefully, you guys get the idea regardless. |
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RAKKIR
Seeker
61 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2006 : 18:05:35
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Does anyone know of any Stats anywhere for Dorn, Dorn's Allies, the High Druid, and the Zythrandor (the Dracolich)? If so, where?
I wish TSR would print stats for the main players in their novels at the end of each novel. I think that would be a cool little addendum. |
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Inquisitor
Acolyte
Germany
42 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2006 : 18:27:21
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Its not TSR anymore, but WotC.
The stats for Dorn and Kara are in a dragon magazine. Maybe it also has stats for the other characters but I don't know (like I also don't know which issue it was).
To your question/complains.
About the druids. Killing the druid was a nice bonus, but you forget that the dracolichs plan to conquer Sossal was very diferent then the ice queens. The queen wanted to use her epic spells to do that and the druids were very effective in countering them. The dracolich used traditional brute force tactics. While the druids would pose a threat, they were no way as dangerous to his plans as they were to the ice queen.
1. Being smarter then a younger white dragon isn't all that impressive. They are at younger age barly as smart as a normal human and even when they are older many adventurers have better mental scores then them.
2-5. The dracolich still had no other choice then to fight against dorn & company. First Will is not a military tactican so he doesn't has to be right in every case (or maybe the dracolich simply thought different then him). And when refusing to fight those humans he would have shown that he fears them, something dragons don't normally do and also would drive away a large part of his army even with some other "examples". Don't forget that he still needed that army for conquest. Sossal was nowhere near defeated.
Also what do you think would have happened if the dracolich rejected the fight? When he orders his troops to kill them they would likely not obey. When he performed an example and attacked his troops the chance was great that the heros attack and that the army, enraged about the loss of their comerades (yes, even evil creatures have those) would join them so he has to fight against his whole army.
The only way to kill the heroes was to do it yourself. Also as he couldn't really die the consequences of loosing wasn't that serve. |
Edited by - Inquisitor on 17 May 2006 18:28:23 |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2006 : 07:49:56
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| I am looking for stats on Samaster! Any ideas where to find them or on what to guide my "own" creation of his stats? |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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gss_000
Acolyte
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2006 : 09:30:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
I am looking for stats on Samaster! Any ideas where to find them or on what to guide my "own" creation of his stats?
As far as I can recall, I don't think he has been statted up in 3rd ed becuase he was thought to be dead, or at least no one had any proof he was still around.
If you want a guide to making a character, I'd make him epic, yet look at some of the other epic characters out there, like any of the stats for the Seven Sisters, Larloch, Elminster, etc to get an idea of what level to build him towards. I'd put im somewhere in the middle of that range, but maybe even the lower end.
Add stuff from Draconomicon where appropriate since that material was used often throughout the series. It'll be hard to get a direct novel to rpg translation but you should be able to get a reasonable outcome. |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2006 : 09:40:46
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Thank thee! That helps as for a giudeline - especially since I have not read the "Rouge Dragon" trilogy myself and most likely will not either. It's just something that repels me - dragons being slain be the dozen. Where is the old, over-powerful, ever-mystical, all-too-cunning dragon in such a story, i wonder?
Ergdusch |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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gss_000
Acolyte
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2006 : 10:56:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
Thank thee! That helps as for a giudeline - especially since I have not read the "Rouge Dragon" trilogy myself and most likely will not either. It's just something that repels me - dragons being slain be the dozen. Where is the old, over-powerful, ever-mystical, all-too-cunning dragon in such a story, i wonder?
They're in the series, too. Just not as common since this is all about when dragons rage out of rational control. You'd like the vampire smoke dragon Brimstone if no one else. He really fits that description. There are lso three I can think of in the 2nd book of the series (a red, a green, and a sun dragon) that really put the PCs through their paces nd aren't just rampaging beasts. As for dragons being slain by the dozens, you have take into account that except in a few situations, it's a team trained in dragonslaying taking on single dragon or three.
Byers always has his characters act with a healthy respect for their foes. They don't take them lightly nor enter combat as though it is some ordinary task. In fact, if this was a table top game, they did exactly what a well prepared and experience group would do if they knew when they were going to be fighting dragons and that they would be fighting them often. Take that as you will. What I thought could have changed your mind might have just reinforced your opinions.  |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2006 : 12:36:58
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| Point taken - since I have not read the books my position to argue is fairly weak, I assume! However, what I have read though are the sample chapters of the books (posted on the WotC-Products page). Those few pages have not convinced me - nor has your answer. But - at least I am open to be convinced otherwise. |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2006 : 12:41:29
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Back to Sammasters stats:
- might he be just a very powerful and very crazy magics-hurling wizard lich or is there still some power in him from the time him being a chosen of Mystra?
- Draconomicon feats? Like what?
By the way - is the whole plot - dragons in rage and such - actually linked with Sammasters plan to bring about his (mis-)interpretation of the prophecy "...and dragons shall rule..."? Does the cult of the Dragons play a big(-ger) part in the storyline as well or is it Sammaster only? |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2006 : 14:46:00
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| Yes, Sammaster's belief in the prophecy and the Cult of the Dragon's actions are the major catalyst for all events that take place in the Year of Rogue Dragon's Trilogy. |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2006 : 15:00:14
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Thank thee for your quick reply!
Ergdusch |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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The Ruin **Spoilers**
