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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
 Posted - 07 May 2006 : 21:02:16
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This is a topic that came up some time ago, and I was thinking of how I would deal with it for a while. RAS mentioned in the Dark Elf books that drow wizards were reluctant to use their magic on the surface due to its unpredictable nature, and Elaine Cunningham followed up on this with her Starlight and Shadows book. While the main game effect seems to be that drow magic items don't disintegrate in sunlight now, I was thinking of how to deal with these effects in a campaign that might be set before the events of the Windwalker.
Keep in mind, this is just my take on all of this. Opinions may vary, but I think what I came up with may come in handy for portraying the era, if you decide to have campaigns set before 1360 DR.
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2006 : 21:14:51
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Drow Magic and Corellon's Curse
When Corellon cursed the drow and banished them from the surface, he also cut them off from the natural connection that elves feel with the Weave. Arcane spellcasters among the drow were now completely vulnerable, for they connection and pathways to the patters of magic were obscured.
Depending on how literally early accounts are taken, either Lolth introduced demonic blood to the Ilythiiri through Ka'Narlist, or she began a selective breeding program among her original followers, but eventually, this influx of demonic blood did allow many of the early drow to begin to access the Weave through the powers of the feinds they now had as kin.
The drow (now mainly favored souls and sorcerers), began to experiment with energies that were naturally occuring in the Underdark, and had begun to use these energies to bolster their tenuous links to the Weave itself. Eventually fully trained drow wizards, clerics, favored souls, and sorcerers were exhibiting their power in the Underdark.
The drow found that they had difficulty creating lasting magic items without using the natural energies of the Underdark, however, and so developed means of creating items that were imbued with such energies, but were vulnerable to the destructive power of sunlight beyond the Underdark.
The events of the year 1360 DR, and the actions of Liriel Baenre have altered the nature of the drow and their ability to percive the Weave as it pertains to accessing magic and making permanent magic items. While some have lemented that Liriel has potentially aided the plots of any drow with surface conquest aspirations, others have surmised that perhaps Corellon himself (and perhaps at the behest of his daughter Eilistraee) decided that Liriel would be the perfect means of allowing the curse upon the drow to finally die, in a manner that Lolth herself would not anticipate.
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2006 : 21:27:00
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Drow Flaws
As with all other flaws, a character may take up to two of these flaws in order to allow them access to one feat for each flaw that they take.
Sunlight Damage (Flaw)
Exposure to sunlight has damaged some of the natural traits that are part of your dark elven heritage.
Prerequisite: Dark elf, must have visited the surface during the daylight.
Effect: You may choose to loose either your spell like abilities or your spell resistance due to your exposure to the damaging sunlight.
Special: You may choose this flaw more than once. If you choose it twice, you loose both your spell like abilities and your spell resistance.
Dreaming Drow (Flaw)
You no longer enter the Reverie of the elven races, but rather you sleep and dream as lesser mortals do.
Prerequisites: Drow
Effects: You are no longer immune to sleep spells and effects, and you must sleep for eight hours rather than enter Reverie for four hours.
Due to the extraordinary events of the year 1360 DR, after the Windwalker brings dark elven magic to the surface, characters with the above listed flaws may pay one open feat to erase the effects of one of the above listed flaws, so show the change in the intrinsic nature of the drow and how they relate to the surface and the Weave. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2006 : 21:46:39
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Drow Feats
The following feats can be used to modify how drow magic and its use is modified on the surface before the events of 1360 DR. Within each feat is a note on how to modify the feat and its use after the events of the Windwalker.
Surface Caster (General)
You have learned enough about the surface and how magic works there to compensate for the deficiencies of drow arcane magic.
Prerequisites: Drow, ability to cast arcane spells, any metamagic feat
Benefit: You can cast your arcane spells on the surface in the same way that you can in the Underdark.
Normal: If you are an arcane caster and a drow before 1360 DR, if you cast spells on the surface you are treated as if you are constantly in a Wild Magic region.
Special: After 1360 DR and the events of the Windwalker, you may trade this feat in for a metamagic feat of your choice.
Surface Crafter (Item Creation)
You have learned to create magic items that last in the sunlit world above, and to do so more efficiently than your kin.
Prerequisite: Drow, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Surface Caster (arcane casters only), Spell Focus (Alteration)(divine casters only)
Benefit: You may make weapons and armor for the same cost that other spellcasters of other races do.
Normal: Creating permanent arms and armor is difficult due to your lack of connection to the Weave, and they cost x4 their normal cost in XP and gold.
You may create drowcraft arms and armor for their normal cost.
Special: After the events of 1360 DR you may trade this feat in for for any one item creation feat. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2006 : 21:47:32
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| Alright, thats all I got. Give them a look and let me know what you think of them . . . thanks. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2006 : 22:02:46
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I always assumed it was the faerzress that was the issue. We know it distorts magic, and we also know that drow like to live near it. My assumption has always been that the way drow mages learned to cast their spells took the presence of faerzress into account -- so, when they're on the surface and no faerzress is about, then they have issues.
Similarly, drow items were often crafted drawing on the unique radiations of faerzress. This radiation appears to break down in ultraviolet light, so the drow items themselves, infused with this stuff, also broke down.
At least, that's always been my spin. YMMV.  |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2006 : 22:05:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I always assumed it was the faerzress that was the issue. We know it distorts magic, and we also know that drow like to live near it. My assumption has always been that the way drow mages learned to cast their spells took the presence of faerzress into account -- so, when they're on the surface and no faerzress is about, then they have issues.
Similarly, drow items were often crafted drawing on the unique radiations of faerzress. This radiation appears to break down in ultraviolet light, so the drow items themselves, infused with this stuff, also broke down.
At least, that's always been my spin. YMMV.
As did I, according to the lore on the subject. :) Which is what the magical effect in Underdark also says.... |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2006 : 22:07:43
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Oh, I get it, but now we have no game rule or other reference for drow arcane casters having any issues on the surface, and the Vhearunites don't seem to think twice about it, so I just wanted to create some game rule mechanics that might help explain matters, especially if you have a campaign that might span both sides of 1360 DR.
Currently in the Realms, its all a moot point anyway, though the flaws could still be of use to "throwback" drow that don't want to conform to the drow "norm." |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2006 : 22:41:12
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Oh, I get it, but now we have no game rule or other reference for drow arcane casters having any issues on the surface, and the Vhearunites don't seem to think twice about it, so I just wanted to create some game rule mechanics that might help explain matters, especially if you have a campaign that might span both sides of 1360 DR.
The magical item property in the Underdark sourcebook reflects on how they have issues, at least for magical items. :)
But as for the spells themselves that casters use on the surface, you are correct. But if I was going to remove the radation, I'd just say that they have started to cast spells without it. When they did it was combinued with the Weave and now they have been researching spells from the surface that don't use the radation. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 08 May 2006 02:00:30 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2006 : 01:51:59
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Agrees with both Wooly and Kuje...
As it is... we know a significant amount of the magic the drow employ is based around faerzress. So, we can assume this may also include their spells also. If we take this into consideration, then if drow are focused on casting spells that draw upon the faerzress or, perhaps, are especially modified to work somewhere near faerzress, it becomes apparent that when drow move away from any source of faerzress, such magic is severely affected.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2006 : 02:45:15
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*sighs* This again? 3.X charged the system even for the Realms. Various older editions indicated that Drow Children were dillid in the minnor spells they had access to, the radiation rarely metioned though certainly could have been present. The armor and weapons in prior editions and more recently in 3.5 of course relie on the radiation to maintain its existance when exposed to light. An odd thing in my view that metal would turn to dust because of sunlight, as oposed to being removed from the radiation. There again logic does not apply to a magical world.
More back to direct topic, KnightErrantJR the ideas of entering flaws because of blood and an action as simple as seeing the sun rise, does not fit well into the D&D or d20 system in my opinion.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2006 : 03:02:46
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I was just trying to come up with some mechanics, for those that wanted them, to simulate how things used to work as opposed to how they work now. I did this mainly because A) some people might run their campaigns in the past, and B) people in the Realms have no idea that the "game rules changed" to explain why things are different.
I introduced the flaws to explain a character like Drizzt who lost his drow abilities after dwelling on the surface.
Obviously these explanations are NOT useful for those that have seen it so far, so I'm sorry that I sparked a debate that apparently still causes some differenses of opinion.
Appologies, didn't mean to waste anyone's time . . . |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2006 : 03:23:52
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Drow Flaws
As with all other flaws, a character may take up to two of these flaws in order to allow them access to one feat for each flaw that they take.
The flaw system can be found here in full. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2006 : 03:36:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Drow Flaws
As with all other flaws, a character may take up to two of these flaws in order to allow them access to one feat for each flaw that they take.
The flaw system can be found here in full.
*sighs* Variant Rules, I will try to say no more. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2006 : 03:41:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
*sighs* Variant Rules, I will try to say no more.
What's the problem with the flaws system? It's not as greatly well done as the flaws system in Old World of Darkness, but it's neither unbalanced nor unplayable. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2006 : 04:49:32
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
You're not wasting any scribe's time KEJR... 'tis always an intriguing topic to discuss.
I agree, I didn't think KEJR was wasting people's time. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5695 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2006 : 08:22:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Drow Flaws
As with all other flaws, a character may take up to two of these flaws in order to allow them access to one feat for each flaw that they take.
The flaw system can be found here in full.
*sighs* Variant Rules, I will try to say no more.
Well met
Kentinal, this is a valid discussion and KEJR was right to bring it to the table to discuss with us all. If it simply isn't thy bag, then very well. If ye have any constructive comments to add or wish to join in these discussions to expand upon KEJR's ideas then please do so. Thank ye. |
Alaundo
Candlekeep Forums Head Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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An Introduction to Candlekeep - by Ed Greenwood
The Candlekeep Compendium - Tomes of Realmslore penned by Scribes of Candlekeep
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2006 : 13:14:37
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Big Al, I will freely admit I do not like flaws, just another way to min.mazx.
As for persented flaws under the Varient rule system there are tech concerns as well. Flaws are to be taken at character creation and should have a numeric effect. Exposure to sunlight is something that can occur after character is created or of course could be in history of character (there are no core children rules, but characters are not born age 17 either and does not have a numeric effect, instead it is an assult on Drow/Elvn traits.
As for Dreaming Drow it could be said to have a numeric effect, must sleep 8 hours instead 4 hours of Reverie. This flaw however has no effect on sleep casters in this regard. The rest of it loss of imunity to sleep sleeps is an attack on lven blood and has no numerice effect. If anything the Flaw should be called Sleeping Elf and open to all Elven subraces. There could be added a numeric effect, smething like a -4 on saves against sleep spells to bring that component under the guideline of having a numeric effect. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2006 : 13:30:42
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Dragon Magazine 328 has an article called Nobody's Perfect which goes into further details about flaws for various races, such as elves, dwarves, etc. This article includes several flaws that are not strickly numeric, but involved adding and subtracting traits to these races, such as giving dwarves light sensitivity.
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Jindael
Senior Scribe
USA
357 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2006 : 13:38:47
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Sunlight Damage (Flaw)
Exposure to sunlight has damaged some of the natural traits that are part of your dark elven heritage.
Prerequisite: Dark elf, must have visited the surface during the daylight.
Effect: You may choose to loose either your spell like abilities or your spell resistance due to your exposure to the damaging sunlight.
Special: You may choose this flaw more than once. If you choose it twice, you loose both your spell like abilities and your spell resistance.
What you are trying to recreate here makes perfect sense when you look at it from a novel point of view, but even with the concept of ‘flaws are more detrimental than feats’, losing your spell resistance is a huge negative. IMO, it’s easily worth at least +1 of a LA.
Perhaps a scaling system when it comes to SR? The first time you take the flaw, you are 5+ class level, and the second time it goes away entirely?
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"You don't have a Soul. You are a Soul. You have a body."
-- C.S. Lewis |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2006 : 13:46:28
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Dragon Magazine 328 has an article called Nobody's Perfect which goes into further details about flaws for various races, such as elves, dwarves, etc. This article includes several flaws that are not strickly numeric, but involved adding and subtracting traits to these races, such as giving dwarves light sensitivity.
Hmm, I have not read that article, however adding light sensitivity does have a numeric effect. "Dazzled
The creature is unable to see well because of overstimulation of the eyes. A dazzled creature takes a -1 penalty on attack rolls, Search checks, and Spot checks. "
Perhaps there are others offered in the article that does not have a numeric effect, the effect could be secondary like light sensitivity. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Beirnadri Magranth
Senior Scribe
USA
720 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2006 : 15:44:28
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I would imagine that weave users familiar with faezresss could cast spells in it by just altering the way they cast the spell, in the same manner as they would assign a target or distance or how many hp to heal etc.. When you are in an area free of faezress you could just cast spells normally and not have any issue. In areas of the underdark that are not effected by faezress the drow have no issue casting spells so why would they have problems casting spells in surface areas without faezress, (just because there is not rock overhead?)
Magic items on the other hand are can not change themselves to react to their environment so if they are built for faezress that makes them function incorrectly without it.
basically i like the way its presented in the Underdark tome. Magic items are effected spellcasters are not.
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"You came here to be a martyr in a great big bang of glory... instead you will die with a whimper."
::moussaoui tries to interrupt::
"You will never get a chance to speak again and that's an appropriate ending."
-Judge Brinkema |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2006 : 17:15:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Big Al, I will freely admit I do not like flaws, just another way to min.mazx.
While flaws can be used to min-max, they can also add to role-playing. It's like any role-playing system: if you want to abuse it you can, but if you want to use it to enhance your character concept, you can do that, instead. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2006 : 17:20:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Beirnadri Magranth
I would imagine that weave users familiar with faezresss could cast spells in it by just altering the way they cast the spell, in the same manner as they would assign a target or distance or how many hp to heal etc.. When you are in an area free of faezress you could just cast spells normally and not have any issue. In areas of the underdark that are not effected by faezress the drow have no issue casting spells so why would they have problems casting spells in surface areas without faezress, (just because there is not rock overhead?)
It's not quite that simple. Drow generally don't travel too far from their cities, so there's no reason for them to learn how to not deal with faerzress. And when you've learned to do something a certain way, and that way is taking another factor into account, just taking that factor out on the fly isn't so easy.
Another bit of proof that drow don't expect to be away from their faerzress: the fact that they rely on the stuff for their magical items. They rely on it because it's almost a guaranteed fact that they will always be around it. So that's why the faerzress factor is built in: they don't expect to be away from it. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2421 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2014 : 19:21:47
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| There was also "Wizard of Sun and Moon" ACF in Dungeonscape - 1 spell slot of each level becomes context-dependent - it allows to cast one spell aboveground during the day OR another spell if underground or during the night. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Drow Magic, Pre-Windwalker Events
