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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1499 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Jul 2014 : 15:15:46
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I was looking through my old books, namely powers and pantheons, and musing on how to convert them to 3.5e, and it just so happened that I stumbled on to the Necrophant of Velsharoon.
I'm thinking of converting it to 3.5e, not as a clerical prestige class or a version of the true necromancer, but as a prestige class available to any spellcaster worshipper of the Vaunted. Most necromantic prestige classes revolve around undeath almost exclusively - the Pale Master is the only one that escapes this trap - and even the Master Specialist falls headlong into this (which is odd, given that most arcane necromancy spells are debuffs and save-or-die effects).
I'm considering offering a choice between two paths at first level, one revolving around undeath, the other around the manipulation of negative energy (i.e. level drain, ability drain, save or die), and maybe an expanded spell list.
I'm also working on a Pathfinder version of Velsharoon pre-ascension with the mythic rules.
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1845 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2014 : 19:44:48
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In my homebrew all of the 2e specialty priests are their own (core) class. It kind of vexed me that the druid (a specialty priest) was ported over as a core class but none of the others were. Didn't make sense to me back then and still doesn't now. Instead, they made prestige classes out of them.
Not too long ago I was playing a priestess of Lathander. Because of the entry requirements into the Morninglord PrC it was going to take my PC 8 fargin levels to qualify. EIGHT! for a class that's supposed to be available at level 5 (it's b/c clerics in 3e got sorely screwed in the skill points department). Btw when I say 8 I really mean she would be level 9 before she could enter the class.
I hate 3e priests with a passion and never play them unless the DM is flexible about this issue. Anyway, converting the Necrophant shouldn't be too difficult and I really like your idea of two possible paths. Good luck. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
Edited by - The Arcanamach on 17 Jul 2014 23:03:19 |
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Crai
Acolyte
USA
42 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2014 : 19:38:38
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LordofBones,
I like the idea of a Necrophant being a Negative Energy manipulator. There's so many necromancer class/PrC archetypes out there for building small armies of undead, that the offensive debuff spellslinger would be a more welcome and needed niche to fill.
I like the idea too, of expanding the spell list. Depending upon whether you make the Necrophant enter-able by divine or arcane spellcasters, it's always fun and useful to have PrCs grab a few ideal "perfect fit" spells from other spellcasting lists.
You may also want to have the Necrophant make good use of the Black Lore of Moil feat for casting his necromantic attack spells. It's a great piggyback mechanism to take non-damage causing necromancy spells (like Ray of Enfeeblement or Enervation) and allow the them to add on rider feats like Fell Drain, Fell Weaken and Fell Frighten.
Looking forward to seeing your posted PrC! |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11744 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2014 : 00:10:45
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It would be nice to have like a 5 level prestige class of this sort. The main thing I saw with the necrophant was that they could cast wizard spells of the necromancy school, but that they took up their clerical slots and required a certain intelligence score. It would be interesting if this class allowed the character at some point to do the exact same thing (though offer certain spell lists, like choosing either clerical necromancy spells (uses WIS) or wizard necromancy spells (uses INT) or dread necromancy spells (uses CHA)). For instance, say at 1st level in the prestige class the cleric who entered necrophant (now say a 6th lvl clerical caster) can now cast arcane wizard spells of the school of necromancy of 3rd lvl or less if they use a clerical spot for it . Now, they all of a sudden qualify to enter other prestige classes like true necromancer & mystic theurge, so they drop a single level in wizard and off they go in the other prestige class.
IF this were used, I could see similar type classes for followers of Leira, with people going into beguiler or wizard; Azuth, with people going into sorceror, warmage or wizard; Auppenser, with people going psion then psychic theurge; and Savras, with people going sorcerer or wizard. The premise of these would be that in following the religion they learn the "spellcasting" theories of the other side. In all the examples above, it could also be them starting as the arcane or psionic side and then beginning a progression on the divine side. The main question becomes when do they get this ability to prevent people who just single dip the class to start "theurging", but in the end, the secondary class will always be a relatively lower level caster in the end (unless they trade spells in their primary class). Some may see this as breaking the rules, but personally, I see it as making these religions actually fit their archetype (i.e. I expect clerics of Azuth to have wizard spells). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1499 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2014 : 10:12:28
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That's going to be a bit hard to work into the Necrophant concept, but I like the idea. This does chafe into the poor dread necromancer though, advanced learning becomes useless if I give necrophants the ability to cast all necromancy spells.
Here's some what I've worked out for the Necrophant's negative energy path.
Path of Death As one of the two avenues of study that can be chosen by Necrophants, the Path of Death focuses on the practical applications of negative energy upon the mortal and undead body and soul (or lack thereof). The Path of Death bestows a +1 profane bonus to the caster level of your Necromancy spells and grants access to one of the following secrets every two levels.
Haunting Necromancy (Su): Your necromancy spells leave a lingering echo. When a target successfully saves against your Necromancy spells, it must make the same saving throw one round later or be affected by the haunting remainder of the spell. The haunting necromancy is much less potent than the original, only inflicting half the original effect, with a successful saving throw negating all damage. Death effects are the exception to this, the victim suffers the same effect but has a +5 bonus to his saving throw.
Thanatopic Manipulation (Su): You have learned how to manipulate the effects of negative energy you inflict on others. As a swift action, you can transfer up to one half the ability drain, ability damage or negative levels you inflict on a target to another victim within 60 feet of the original. You can repeat this effect with the new victim, but you cannot manipulate the same target twice nor can you reduce the ability damage or negative levels you inflict below 1.
Thanatopic Spell (Su): Once per day for every three Necrophant levels you have, you may declare one spell with the death descriptor you cast to be a Thanatopic spell. Thanatopic spells ignore immunity to death effects provided by undeath or spells such as death ward, although the victim must still succeed at a saving throw (if the spell allows one).
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11744 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2014 : 11:02:51
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Hmmm, kept playing with this idea in my head. Like the Master Specialist, this would make a perfect prestige class to make available for people at 3rd level. Maybe they get the alternate source spellcasting like this
1st lvl - learn alternate source necromantic spellcasting - 0 lvl spells
2nd lvl - learn alternate source necromantic spellcasting - up to 3rd lvl spells
3rd lvl - learn alternate source necromantic spellcasting - up to 5th lvl spells
4th lvl - learn alternate source necromantic spellcasting - up to 7th lvl spells
5th lvl - learn alternate source necromantic spellcasting - up to 9th lvl spells
All the while, they'd get +1 lvl of spellcasting as well, plus you could spice up the class with some necromantic abilities as well (such as turn undead advancement, and maybe necromantic feats becoming available)
Thus, for those that simply want that extra school of magic available as a cleric, it becomes very doable without them having to become a mystic theurge or sacrifice any spellcasting as a priest (i.e. a 12th lvl cleric/5th necrophant could cast cleric spells plus swap any spell for a 9th lvl wizard or 9th lvl dread necro <whichever had been chosen> spell). For those clerics who plan on staying in the class and not theurge, going dread necro would probably be the way to go since clerics actually have a good use for charisma.
However, for those that want to theurge but want to PRIMARILY be a priest or wizard, this allows them to say be a 3rd cleric/2nd necrophant/1st wiz/10th lvl mystic theurge... giving a 16th lvl character the ability to cast as a 15th lvl cleric or an 11th lvl wizard. It could also be done in the reverse, ending up with a 16th lvl character with the ability to cast as a 15th lvl wizard or an 11th lvl cleric. At 20th lvl, if they found a way to continue advancing both (say true necromancer) you end up with 18th lvl wizard or cleric and 14th lvl in the other class. If they had had to go the traditional mystic theurge/true necro route (ie 3rd cleric/3rd wiz/14 true necro to get 15 cleric/15th wiz OR 3rd cleric/3rd wiz/10 mystic theurge/4 true necro to get 16 cleric/16 wiz). In the end, this makes theurging more viable to the party as the party cleric doesn't have to effectively drop behind 3 levels (just 1), but they do sacrifice spellcasting capability in the alternate class pretty heavily and their BAB drops by 2.
I think I may take some time myself to look into making this for Sibyllites (for Savras), Magistrati (for Azuth), Mistcallers (for Leira). In the case of the Magistrati, their alternate source spellcasting would be stymied by a slower progression and limited to the wizard spell list, but the whole list (so maybe going 0, 2, 3,5,7) instead of a single school. Thus, a full-fledged magistrati at 20th lvl could cast 9th lvl cleric spells OR swap any cleric spell of similar lvl for a 7th lvl or under wizard spell... all without theurging (not that they couldn't theurge as well for more spells per day... but if they stay magistrati they'd get less but higher level wizard casting). It would be kind of like the geomancer but losing the upper level spells and gaining back spellcasting in one class.
Noting, this would also be a way for folks to easily theurge with some non-standard classes (for instance, an Azuthan cleric/magistrati or Leiran cleric/mistcaller or Velsharite cleric/necrophant or Savran cleric/sibyllite who gains the ability to cast 2nd lvl arcane wizard spells could then take a level of bard, beguiler, warmage, dread necro, etc and advance both without having to worry about arcane spell failure for wearing lighter armors, and without having to spend a lot of time in the other class to get its minor spellcasting abilities. )
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11744 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2014 : 11:19:36
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
That's going to be a bit hard to work into the Necrophant concept, but I like the idea. This does chafe into the poor dread necromancer though, advanced learning becomes useless if I give necrophants the ability to cast all necromancy spells.
Here's some what I've worked out for the Necrophant's negative energy path.
Path of Death As one of the two avenues of study that can be chosen by Necrophants, the Path of Death focuses on the practical applications of negative energy upon the mortal and undead body and soul (or lack thereof). The Path of Death bestows a +1 profane bonus to the caster level of your Necromancy spells and grants access to one of the following secrets every two levels.
Haunting Necromancy (Su): Your necromancy spells leave a lingering echo. When a target successfully saves against your Necromancy spells, it must make the same saving throw one round later or be affected by the haunting remainder of the spell. The haunting necromancy is much less potent than the original, only inflicting half the original effect, with a successful saving throw negating all damage. Death effects are the exception to this, the victim suffers the same effect but has a +5 bonus to his saving throw.
Thanatopic Manipulation (Su): You have learned how to manipulate the effects of negative energy you inflict on others. As a swift action, you can transfer up to one half the ability drain, ability damage or negative levels you inflict on a target to another victim within 60 feet of the original. You can repeat this effect with the new victim, but you cannot manipulate the same target twice nor can you reduce the ability damage or negative levels you inflict below 1.
Thanatopic Spell (Su): Once per day for every three Necrophant levels you have, you may declare one spell with the death descriptor you cast to be a Thanatopic spell. Thanatopic spells ignore immunity to death effects provided by undeath or spells such as death ward, although the victim must still succeed at a saving throw (if the spell allows one).
It would somewhat make the cleric suddenly more "necromanticy" than the dread necromancer by offering every necromantic spell. However, the dread necro already gets the cleric's turn ability. They also get a charnel touch which makes them capable of healing their undead between combats for free. Plus they gain all kinds of nifty abilities as they level up. Since the cleric would have to memorize the spell (if they chose to learn all necromancy wizard spells) they're still limited... and if they chose dread necro as their alternate source their list would be limited, but it would be spontaneous if they left slots open <note, would need to specify this>.... it shouldn't be overwhelming. I would have to also add-in that when using spells from their alternate source, they suffer from arcane spell failure just as if they were casting as that class. So, clerics running around in plate and shield who become necrophants would likely fail, but if they limited themselves to say chain shirts or a mithril breastplate and chose dread necro as their alternate source... they'd be good.... if they chose wizard as their alternate source, they best be using means to drop their arcane spell failure somehow.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1499 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2014 : 14:53:27
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I think that works.
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Necrophant of Velsharoon
