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ShadowJack
Senior Scribe
USA
350 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Apr 2006 : 15:19:39
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I just picked up a copy of Empires of the Shining Seas. Something that I appreciate about the works of Mr. Schend is his attention to details. A small thing that has bothered me in the Realms, is the assumption that all weapon types have been around forever. For instance, the rapier. There are sources that mention rapiers from thousands of years ago in Realm's history... Granted, I am a student of medieval arms and armor, and Medieval Europe does not equate to the realms, that being said, I am not trying to make a direct comparison of medival Europe and Faerun. What I am saying, is that there still should be a logical progression of arms development in the Realms and it was refreshing to see Steve Schend address this in EotSS. For instance, he talks about the humans of Calimshan starting to use iron and discovering the bow from the elves. Very interesting. My assumption in all of this is that the dwarves and elves, being so much longer lived, introduced many of these ideas to humans. I am in no way knocking the Realms, I love the Realms and the flexibility to develop characters and arms and armor free of restraints. Just an observation...
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2006 : 16:33:15
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Well....
You could also chalk it up to the deities. Maybe they don't want the races to advance that much, especially into more advanced tech.
Having read a lot of fantasy, there are many worlds where the tech hasn't progressed that much and so it's not just a fluke for the Realms.
Further, it's also mostly a part of the D&D mindset, but not always, that weapons and armor don't really advance that far into more advanced tech. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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ShadowJack
Senior Scribe
USA
350 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2006 : 17:07:51
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Kuje,
Interesting, I never thought of the deities of Faerun limiting or even aiding advancements in arms and armor. What I am specifically thinking about is the development of medieval weapons. The rapier, for instance, is not technically a weapon of the middle ages. When did Mulhorand, an ancient Faerun culture, go through the bronze age? Or did they? Did Netheril being a contemporary of Calimshan's First or Second age progress from bronze to iron weapons? Were iron and steel weapons known only to dwarves and elves this early in Faerun's history? Just points I am pondering, nothing important. One of my huge interests is medieval weaponry and its development, so I always notice any info about this weaponry. |
ShadowJack |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2006 : 20:00:03
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Well we know Gond limits info about advanced tech and it was he that brought smokepowder to Faerun even though Kara-tur had it for centuries before that.
I dunno, with different races, especially some that live for centuries, does FR have to have different ages for weapons and armors? I suppose it makes sense for it to do so from our history but is it needed in FR? Besides there are many places in the Realms that don't use steel or iron while they use bronze or copper weapons, even if other places are using steel and or iron.
But as I said, it's also a D&D mindset that most places have steel or iron weapons and armor. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 12 Apr 2006 20:00:57 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2006 : 21:05:33
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From 2nd edition old empires
The lands lost by the southern empires were quickly retaken, but not by them. Instead, two new powers rose to prominence after the Orcgate Wars, the powers of Narfell and Raumathar. These were warlike nations that coalesced out of the migrating northern tribes that were paid to fight as mercenaries in the Orcgate Wars. They had weapons of iron (as opposed to the bronze weapons that Mulhorand and Unther used at the time) and soon developed powerful magic of their own.
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Aaron L
Acolyte
USA
21 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2006 : 04:36:52
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The very first swords developed could very well be described as... rapiers. They were long pointed stabbing weapons, as the metals they were made of couldnt stand the stresses of slashing. Many have been found with the rivets and bindings torn through because the wielders got impatient and slashed with them instead of using them properly, and broke them. It wasnt until stronger materials started being used that slashing swords became practical.
I many times get tired of the idea that all cultures have to go through the same develomental stages that Earth did. Its presented in too many places. Especially in a place where magic is somewhat common, many of the most intelligent people will be devoting themselves to magical development instead of technological. |
"Sustenance is not frivolous." |
Edited by - Aaron L on 13 Apr 2006 04:39:37 |
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ShadowJack
Senior Scribe
USA
350 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2006 : 13:23:18
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Many Thanks, Sages!
Sleyvas, thanks for the info from Old Empires. It has been many years since I looked at that sourcebook.
Aaron L. ,
I would be interested in knowing more about these early swords. From whence comes your info? My idea was not to compare Earth to Faerun exactly, I love Faerun the way it is. To try to make Faerun conform to Earth's Middle Ages would take away the fun, flavor and flexibility that makes the Realms great. My purpose was to see what canon material said about different ares of the Realm's having experienced a 'bronze age' or something similar. It seems several cultures did go through that development phase. Your point about magic being the focus of many people is very true. Why develop better swords when you can cast a fireball or chain ligthning? |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2006 : 14:42:35
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| He tend to view the -200 to 500DR period being the equivelent of a Faerunian Darkage the major empires of the previous era collapsed and much knowledge ws losses ie Netheril, Jhaamdath, Narfell etc all fell during this period which more or less pulled the rug out of Faeruns technological advancement |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Aaron L
Acolyte
USA
21 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2006 : 22:02:21
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Jack,
I get where youre coming from. I like that kind of info myself, and love to read it. (Steve is good at that stuff) The part about humans learning the use of bows from the elves is especially cool. Probably longswords too.
As for early swords, look for anything by Ewart Oakeshott, or try here for a start
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sword
That will give you a good basis, but look for more thorough references as well. |
"Sustenance is not frivolous." |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2006 : 21:07:27
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| To get back to this thread. Page 87 of the FRCS discusses, sorta of, why some nations don't advance into steel or why they keep bronze or copper weapons and armor. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2006 : 22:02:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
To get back to this thread. Page 87 of the FRCS discusses, sorta of, why some nations don't advance into steel or why they keep bronze or copper weapons and armor.
This post brought to you by Kuje - Reading the 3e FR sources cover to cover for the first time.  |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2006 : 22:24:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
To get back to this thread. Page 87 of the FRCS discusses, sorta of, why some nations don't advance into steel or why they keep bronze or copper weapons and armor.
This post brought to you by Kuje - Reading the 3e FR sources cover to cover for the first time.
Indeed. :) And what interesting facts I've found so far in Monsters and the FRCS. So, that above reply tells you about what page I'm on in the FRCS. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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ShadowJack
Senior Scribe
USA
350 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2006 : 12:47:57
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Kuje,
I have read the FRCS from cover to cover, but, it HAS been awhile. I eagerly look forward to getting home to check out what you have found! How could I have let something like that slip by?.. |
ShadowJack |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2006 : 13:07:13
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That's because it's not really anything specific that you can take proper note of. As Kuje said above, the details on pg. 87 "sort of" cover why the development of some weapons, in relation to the distribution and access of steel and metal for some of the much older regions in the Realms, has progressed at different levels. It's not really definitive... just more of a "general scope" type of analysis.
On it's own, this is really something Ed could cover in much more depth... a complete sourcebook (or part of one) on the development of military strategy, the conduction of wars and the progress of technology throughout Realms history. PoF touches on this... but there's plenty more than can still be told -- specifically relating to each area of the Realms proper.
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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BlackAce
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2006 : 13:13:13
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Yeah I definetly like it when the realms throws in some apropriate historical parallels with the real world. I could kiss Ed and Eric for the Heralds and Heraldry section in Power of Faerun.  |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2006 : 18:07:57
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quote:
Originally posted by ShadowJack
Kuje,
I have read the FRCS from cover to cover, but, it HAS been awhile. I eagerly look forward to getting home to check out what you have found! How could I have let something like that slip by?..
Well, it is a short section, but it does, sort of, as I said above, answer some of the questions you asked, in a general sort of way. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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ShadowJack
Senior Scribe
USA
350 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2006 : 20:03:17
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BlackAce,
I also liked the Heralds and Heraldry section. As a former SCA herald it was nice to see. |
ShadowJack |
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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
575 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2006 : 00:36:08
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I would tend to credit the development of Realmsian Arms and Armament to the MANNER of warfare in which they indulge.
A History of Warfare, by John Keegan, painstakingly examines Western warfare, Oriental Warfare, and Asian Warfare, and the different principles behind them.
I'll skip over all the dry stuff (though it really is an interesting read) and tell you that Oriental and Asian warfare is more typically defined by cultural values, where Western warfare is a constant evolution of direct conflict and a race to find more efficient ways of killing each other. Mastery of *this* warfare and *these* weapons was more greatly valued than mastering *new* forms of warfare and *new* weapons because that mastery was culturally re-affirming and as a side-effect created a sort of arms-control unknown in Western Civilization.
Note that this is a vast over-simplification of that text, but is true as far as it goes.
So in the Realms, I tend to cast an Oriental conception of Warfare over most cultures. Weapons development occured long ago, and manifested in the status-quo, which is universally accepted by all. Martial change in eschewed for cultural reasons on the one hand, and on the other because if you REALLY wanted to just obliterate people you'll hire some wizards.
:::Deposits his two coppers::
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*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
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Aaron L
Acolyte
USA
21 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2006 : 08:28:33
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Very interesting, an almost ceremonial aspect to warfare.
I'd think that the clergy of Tempus would be involved in that on some level. Maintaining the purity of warfare, maybe? |
"Sustenance is not frivolous." |
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ShadowJack
Senior Scribe
USA
350 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2006 : 12:49:33
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| Very interesting thoughts WalkerNinja. In a nut shell, what you are saying is that weapons, armor, and tactics have not changed much, due to a cultural inclination, more than a constant progression of one-upmanship you find in western Europe. This would fit in well with the brief description that Kuje found in the FRCS. Especially the info given on Mulhorand and Unther, and why it took them so long to accept steel armaments. (Thanks Kuje)I will look for that title you mentioned, it sounds of great interest to this weapons scholar... |
ShadowJack |
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Weapons development in the Realms...
