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Drakul
Senior Scribe
USA
367 Posts |
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Apr 2006 : 01:29:45
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Though I had not read all of Drizzt novels, I managed to glean enough to say this:
Either Drizzt trust his sword and innate magical abilities more to win fights or he is simply too honorable, but I assume the first reason would be the more likely answer from what I read so far as he is most familiar with them and considered very reliable compared to having no experience with ranger spells and not trusting them to be reliable in dire situations.
If he doesn't use ranger spells, it may be simply Montolio had forgotten to teach him about that other than ranger lore and skills or simply doesn't trust magic at all since Montolio expressed a bit of distrust towards wizards. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2006 : 02:05:02
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| I'm not sure, but I think Rangers simply didn't utilise spells pre 3rd edition - which would explain the whole thing pretty neatly. |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2006 : 03:08:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
I'm not sure, but I think Rangers simply didn't utilise spells pre 3rd edition - which would explain the whole thing pretty neatly.
Nope, rangers had a very limited spell list in 2E. They started getting priest spells at 8th level. |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2006 : 05:19:07
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And when you think about it, it hardly mentions his divine connection to Mielikki. I think RAS just steered away from the whole Ranger being holy and spell-wielding thing.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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silvermage
Seeker
77 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2006 : 06:32:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
I'm not sure, but I think Rangers simply didn't utilise spells pre 3rd edition - which would explain the whole thing pretty neatly.
Well even the dwarf ranger in the Year of Rogue Dragons Trilogy got an fair and simple assortment of spells. |
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Aaron L
Acolyte
USA
21 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2006 : 04:42:58
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| And when you consider that Drizzt first appeared in 1E, when he could have been casting Magic Missiles as well as Druid spells, it makes it all the more odd... |
"Sustenance is not frivolous." |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2006 : 14:10:34
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| Just Bob's foibles, I think. Does his non-Realms fiction treat arcane and divine magic differently? |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2006 : 15:29:53
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Not really sure. I still just think he wanted to avoid the magic aspect all together. If you notice, he spends a lot of time dealing with magic in Drow Society, so I think he wants to avoid Drizzt having magic.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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silverwizard
Seeker
Greece
76 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2006 : 17:29:54
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What I think is that he wanted Drizz't to be more of a fighter (e.g. master scimitar-wielder) than ranger (defender of nature), but the game system (2E) wouldn't let him. Drizz't's official 2E stats are: CG e(drow)m R16. He couldn't be a ranger/fighter, and he couldn't be a fighter because he would lose the tracking/stealth abilities that the ranger class offers. On the other hand, he couldn't be just a ranger either, but I believe it was preferred over fighter because of two-weapon fighting, animal empathy, hide in shadows/ move silently. The side effect? Spells. RAS's solution? He never uses them.
So, to cut a long story short, 3E helped giving Drizz't a more balanced class/level allocation, and by balanced I mean "closer to the author's vision". |
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Drakul
Senior Scribe
USA
367 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2006 : 19:04:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Drakul
Granted, but he was a fighter before he became a Ranger. So in acuality, he would be a Fighter/Ranger.
Sort of. He was envisioned as a ranger, first and foremost. It was only when he became popular and the Dark Elf trilogy was written that the fighter training came in. |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2006 : 20:35:59
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Look at his stats in the FRCS: he doesn't have enough ranger levels to cast anything flashy. He did an Animal Frienship spell back when they all got stuck on an iceberg: he had a seal go retrieve his Guenwyvar figurine at the bottom of the sea.
At other times, he may just be casting Low-Light Vision on himself, or perhaps Camouflage and other spells that would not even appear visible to people accompanying him. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2006 : 21:01:40
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| Hmm Ranger 5 have no spells unless Wisdom is 12 or better in 3.5 (I know he was ranger 5 in 3.0, but not what his Wis Score was). In prior editions One needed to be a Ranger 8th (both in 1st & 2nd) in order to be able to cast a spell at all. He in the prior editions of course also lost the ability to cast Drow spells, because he was on the surface. As best I can tell RAS is still basing character on 2nd Edition rules (also not sure if Drizz't was ever presented under 1st rules as there was IIRC only i 1st Edition FR book). |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Drakul
Senior Scribe
USA
367 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2006 : 21:05:32
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| I am well aware of his stats in the FRCS. What I am sayin is that in the novels he should have more levels in Ranger. I am also aware of his befriending a dolphin or seal to get Guenhwyvar back. But just think about his use of the Ranger class throughout ALL those novels. He would have more than 5 levels. |
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDonLNKf6_KA9Qlal3Qu3zQ?view_as=subscriber |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2006 : 21:22:15
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Mabe he got level drained, maybe RAS does not want to do Ranger Spells.
Also animal companion (in 3.5 , not bothering to check this for other editions) does not require casting a spell. This is a (EX) ability of being able to relate to animals.
Should he have more ranger levels, then fighter levels in 3.X ? Perhaps but dual weilding swords certainly could justify Fighter level increases instead of Ranger level increases.
The experience reward systym is a simple but flawed system for character develpment.
Experience should be awarded based of using or at least trying to class abilities. Fighting is clearly a Fighter as well a Ranger skill (with one or two weapons), the 3.0 vitual feat should not have provided experience points for using those feats. This of course my opinion, but using Ranger specific abilities, track or survival for example, should be activities that a ranger gets more skilled at being one with nature. Killing things is a fighting skill, not a ranger skill as such. There again all classes kill in the game. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Aaron L
Acolyte
USA
21 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2006 : 21:55:53
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Drizzt most certainly wasnt based on 2E rules, as 2E was released in 1989, the Crystal Shard was published in 1988, and probably written in 1987.
Drow were a playable race from 1E UA, and as a race were able to use a sword in each hand, thus the reason Drizzt does.
Of course, with his strength he would have been limited to 6th level or so as a ranger, so he could never even get high enough level to cast spells, ha! |
"Sustenance is not frivolous." |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2006 : 23:20:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Aaron L
Drizzt most certainly wasnt based on 2E rules, as 2E was released in 1989, the Crystal Shard was published in 1988, and probably written in 1987.
Drow were a playable race from 1E UA, and as a race were able to use a sword in each hand, thus the reason Drizzt does.
Of course, with his strength he would have been limited to 6th level or so as a ranger, so he could never even get high enough level to cast spells, ha!
Uh, most writers don't even pay attention to game stats when thinking of a character. And RAS himself has said that Drizzt was a spur of the moment creation -- making it even less likely that rules were involved. |
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Aaron L
Acolyte
USA
21 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2006 : 01:30:43
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Yeah, I know, the remark was a joke :)
Im silly sometimes. |
"Sustenance is not frivolous." |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2006 : 03:05:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Also animal companion (in 3.5 , not bothering to check this for other editions) does not require casting a spell. This is a (EX) ability of being able to relate to animals.
I said 'Animal Friendship', and perhaps you should have bothered checking, because in 3.5, the spell is now called Charm Animal, and is still available to both druids and rangers... 
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Should he have more ranger levels, then fighter levels in 3.X ? Perhaps but dual weilding swords certainly could justify Fighter level increases instead of Ranger level increases.
How so? if he took the Two-Weapon Fighting feat back when he was a fighter learning under Zaknafein, why can he not now take ranger levels to hone the skills he learned with Montolio and serve as a scout for Mithral Hall? Authors do not think in 'metagaming' mode... to a player, taking the feat as a fighter BEFORE taking the ranger levels perhaps make no sense (and I will note that as a DM, I would give other bonus feats to the ranger if he chooses the melee combat style...) but authors are not obliged to follow the strict letter of the rules.
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
The experience reward systym is a simple but flawed system for character develpment.
Experience should be awarded based of using or at least trying to class abilities. Fighting is clearly a Fighter as well a Ranger skill (with one or two weapons), the 3.0 vitual feat should not have provided experience points for using those feats. This of course my opinion, but using Ranger specific abilities, track or survival for example, should be activities that a ranger gets more skilled at being one with nature. Killing things is a fighting skill, not a ranger skill as such. There again all classes kill in the game.
I'm not too sure what you're trying to say here... I think the current rules system, including XP system, allows for plenty of character development... even more so than previous editions, where certain races had to be shoehorned into certain classes...  |
Edited by - Purple Dragon Knight on 14 Apr 2006 03:06:19 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2006 : 03:51:03
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Hmm, I should have checked what, if Drizzt cast a spell or used an (EX) abilitity when RAS still appears to be writting in a 2nd and/or 1st edition setting (If as Wooly has indicated if the author even considered the rules at all)? Yes Charm animal exists as a spell, however a Ranger gets an animal camanion long before they can even dream of a sucessful casting a spell to charm an animal. Per 3.5 to charm an animal the ranger must be level 6 and Wis 11 to be able to cast any spell level 1 spell at all.
"I'm not too sure what you're trying to say here... I think the current rules system, including XP system, allows for plenty of character development... even more so than previous editions, where certain races had to be shoehorned into certain classes"
Oh 3.X clearly is better then:
first. how much you can kill and carry away, and pay for training.
second how much you can kill, optional rule of how much you can carry away, optional rule of experience points awarded for using a class ability (sucessful cast a spell if a spell weilder, killing things if you are a figther, stealing things [from anyone, including party] if a thief).
third, kill things or disarm/defeat/avoid traps are the only things that advance a person in level. How is this better then other broken systems that reply mostly on killing things?
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2006 : 18:23:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Hmm, I should have checked what, if Drizzt cast a spell or used an (EX) abilitity when RAS still appears to be writting in a 2nd and/or 1st edition setting (If as Wooly has indicated if the author even considered the rules at all)? Yes Charm animal exists as a spell, however a Ranger gets an animal camanion long before they can even dream of a sucessful casting a spell to charm an animal. Per 3.5 to charm an animal the ranger must be level 6 and Wis 11 to be able to cast any spell level 1 spell at all.
Slight clarification here: rangers both get the Animal Companion (Ex) ability and access to the Charm Animal spell at 4th level if they have a Wisdom of 12 or better, which I believe is the case for Drizzt. Rangers must be 6th level to gain 1st-level spells only if their Wisdom is 11 or less.
Edit: most people I know build their rangers with a 14 Wisdom, so as to gain access to 4th-level spells down the road, so in my experience, 1st-level spells and Animal Companion have always gone hand in hand. As an aside, let me all give you the recommendation I gave to the ranger in my group: if you play a ranger that gains the Animal Companion feat, ALWAYS take the light horse as a companion. Animal Companions for rangers are too weak to bring into a fight by the time the ranger has access to them, so might as well take an animal that will be useful in the long-run (i.e. your mount will be slightly better down the road, gaining Evasion when you reach your 6th-level as ranger, so in combination with Mounted Combat, could become a very resistant mount... the share spell ability is also nice, allowing the rider to heal the mount whenever he/she heals herself...) The ONLY instance where I would not necessarily recommend the light horse as an Animal Companion is when the ranger takes the Nature's Bond feat (from Complete Adventurer), in which case the ranger is considered SIX LEVELS HIGHER (i.e. 3 effective druid levels) for the purpose of determining what Animal Companion he/she can have (i.e. the Dire Bat becomes a very appealing choice then, as it is a relatively cheap flying mount - i.e. a 4th-level ranger with the Nature's Bond feat can have that mount right away, as he/she is considered a 10th-level ranger, while the Dire Bat could be gained at 8th-level or higher...)
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Oh 3.X clearly is better then:
first. how much you can kill and carry away, and pay for training.
second how much you can kill, optional rule of how much you can carry away, optional rule of experience points awarded for using a class ability (sucessful cast a spell if a spell weilder, killing things if you are a figther, stealing things [from anyone, including party] if a thief).
third, kill things or disarm/defeat/avoid traps are the only things that advance a person in level. How is this better then other broken systems that reply mostly on killing things?
Again, I'm not 100% sure what you're trying to say here... are you talking about the old 2nd edition or new 3.5 system? |
Edited by - Purple Dragon Knight on 14 Apr 2006 18:34:36 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2006 : 18:33:10
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He does not appear to be that wise *wink*
Yes if Wis is 12 or better he does have access to one bonus spell per day.
As per second question, that was compaision of awarding expeience in 1st, 2nd and 3rd.
The training rules were also brutal in 1st.
3.X is a simple system for awarding experience points, but not really based on how well a PC studies, selftrains, or uses class abilities. The bulk of experuence still comes from killing things. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2006 : 18:36:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
3.X is a simple system for awarding experience points, but not really based on how well a PC studies, selftrains, or uses class abilities. The bulk of experuence still comes from killing things.
The 3.5 system is clear on the matter of 'defeating' monsters, and says that XPs can be awarded for scaring away monsters, avoiding them entirely through stealth, swaying them through intimidation or diplomacy, etc. |
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BlackAce
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2006 : 19:16:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Aaron L
Drizzt most certainly wasnt based on 2E rules, as 2E was released in 1989, the Crystal Shard was published in 1988, and probably written in 1987.
Drow were a playable race from 1E UA, and as a race were able to use a sword in each hand, thus the reason Drizzt does.
Of course, with his strength he would have been limited to 6th level or so as a ranger, so he could never even get high enough level to cast spells, ha!
Uh, most writers don't even pay attention to game stats when thinking of a character. And RAS himself has said that Drizzt was a spur of the moment creation -- making it even less likely that rules were involved.
If I remember right, RAS said that originally Drizzt and Guenhyvvar were Daryth and Canthus from the original Moonshae trilogy, as written in the sample that got him The Crystal Shard.
As Daryth was originally a thief, then a scimitar wielding ranger with a big moorhound animal companion, it might go along way to explaining why Drizzt is the way he is. |
Edited by - BlackAce on 17 Apr 2006 19:17:37 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2006 : 19:26:23
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quote:
Originally posted by BlackAce
If I remember right, RAS said that originally Drizzt and Guenhyvvar were Daryth and Canthus from the original Moonshae trilogy, as written in the sample that got him The Crystal Shard.
As Daryth was originally a thief, then a scimitar wielding ranger with a big moorhound animal companion, it might go along way to explaining why Drizzt is the way he is.
Huh. I'd not heard that one... I remember his old interview where he said he thought them up during a phone conversation with one of the TSR folks, and I'd seen that printed somewhere else, too. Have you a source for this Daryth/Canthus bit? I'm truly curious about that... |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2006 : 19:36:57
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I seem to remember that as well . . . perhaps it was in the new version of the Crystal Shard that mentions this, but he originally thought that as part of the "shared world" idea, they would have some characters in common, and wanted Daryth to be his connection to the Moonshaes books. At some point he was told that all of the characters in his book should be brand new, and that is where the "spur of the moment" Drizzt Do'Urden drow ranger idea came from. I don't think he ever officially started writing Daryth into the story, and I don't even think he told TSR he was going to use Daryth . . . it was just what he was thinking until he found out that the whole cast should be brand new.
But I must say, I also do not remember for sure about where I heard this. I really think it was in the interview that he did in the new copy of The Crystal Shard though . . . |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2006 : 19:52:27
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| Bob recounted Drizzt's genesis in his foreword to the collected Dark Elf Trilogy, reproduced on rasalvatore.com. |
Edited by - Faraer on 17 Apr 2006 19:53:11 |
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BlackAce
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2006 : 22:54:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Huh. I'd not heard that one... I remember his old interview where he said he thought them up during a phone conversation with one of the TSR folks, and I'd seen that printed somewhere else, too. Have you a source for this Daryth/Canthus bit? I'm truly curious about that...
Foreword of the reissue of the Oiginal Moonshae Trilogy. The gist of it is that at the time he submitted his sample chapter for The Crystal Shard, Darkwalker on Moonshae was the only FR product released and for a while, he assumed the Moonshaes were it as far as the Realms went. Seems TSR soon put him straight but that by then, he'd already written Biggrins Lair with Daryth in it.
I take from that then, that rather than rewrite the entire thing he created Drizzt and Guenhywvar and used them instead. Bob, of course could probably tell us best himself. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2006 : 23:15:25
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| Ah, thank you for that info. Not having read the reprints of either trilogy, I didn't know about all of that -- I just knew what was in the interview that came out right before The Legacy. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2006 : 05:34:57
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I meant to post this sooner, but I wanted to point out that the lack of Drizzt's spellcasting ability would be a moot point if you consider him to have the alternate ranger class presented in Complete Warrior. No, its not official, but it makes a lot of sense if you look at the class abilities that replace the spellcasting. For example, if Drizzt was an alternate ranger, if he ever gains another level of ranger and is 6th level, he would gain +10 to his movement rate, which seems to fit him.
One thing you have to give to 3rd/3.5 edition . . . it is a bit easier to figure out how to make a character fit a given description of their abilities with all of the options involved. |
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Drizzt and his Ranger abilities
