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Chataro
Learned Scribe
Singapore
114 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Mar 2006 : 15:31:12
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Just curious, so i want to ask something.
I thought the Holy Avenger is the most holy sword in Faerun? but i seem to remember hearing about 2 or 3 of them already. Including the one in IWD1 and IWD2 and the one in baldur's gate2. Jus how many of these Holy Avenger are there in Faerun?
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Dhomal
Senior Scribe
USA
565 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2006 : 16:35:32
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Hello-
I am sure other scribes will reply with more detaoiled and specific information - but on a simple level:
In 3.5 edition - Holy (Avenger) is a type of weapon - and if I recall correctly - can be added to ANY weapon (*A Holy Avenger dagger, anyone?  *)
That being said - I would guess that any deity would welcome someone creating a weapon in their name as Holy. With as many deities as there are in the FR - thats a lot of Holy weapon possibilities - along with the fact that I do not beleive that there is a limit for a single deity.
So - to answer your question quickly - No - not just one - and I doubt Anyone has a count or tally as to how many there are.
Dhomal |
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Vainelus
Seeker
USA
59 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2006 : 17:00:03
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I would argue that the holy avenger, is not the most sacred blade in faerun. As describe by the DMG page 226 the holy avenger is a +2 cold iron longsword that becomes in the hands of a paladin a +5 holy cold iron longsword that also grants spell resistance to the paladin. It would be easy to make a "holy avenger dagger" if a game master truly desired. There are examples of other weapons being made into holy avengers.
However, the most sacred blades that I can think of off the top of my head are the moonblades, the elfblades of Cormanthyr, Shattering Swords of Coronal Ynloeth, and Baneblades of Demron. Finally, if you include deity's personal weapons the list can expand even further such as Torm's "Duty's Bond"(which is a holy avenger greatsword)etc. |
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2006 : 17:24:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Vainelus
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However, the most sacred blades that I can think of off the top of my head are the moonblades...
I don't recall reading that Moonblades have to be "Holy" anywhere??? The original poster was asking for "Holy" weapons, not weapons held in high regard by a type of people.
As to the original question. I don't know how many Holy Avengers have been mentioned in canon lore but there is no limit to the amount that may exist. As to whether they are the "most holy" weapon, it really depends on the DM. If you only use weapons straight from the DMG than it is probably the "most holy". But if you allow custom items someone can use item creation feats to create a +5 Weapon with the added enchantments of Evil Outsider Bane, Undead Bane, Disruption, and Merciful. That would be a pretty darn good non-epic weapon. |
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Denoples
Acolyte
39 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2006 : 01:31:28
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Cold iron? Is there no difference between iron and steel?
The topic started seems to have played those PC games. There would be many holy swords given by a deity to her or his paladin champion.
But yes, it would depend on the DM and the world she or he creates. A world could be rich or poor with magic. Magic weapons could be very rare or very plentyful; every warrior of some status would have at least a +1 weapon or they may be very very rare were only the most powerful paladins(or any other fighting PCclass for that matter) would have a magic weapon.
I also think there are several types of weapon templates for holy paladin weapons. They don't have to be an avenger. And you could also make up your own. |
Edited by - Denoples on 21 Mar 2006 01:33:12 |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2006 : 02:02:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Denoples
Cold iron? Is there no difference between iron and steel?
The topic started seems to have played those PC games. There would be many holy swords given by a deity to her or his paladin champion.
But yes, it would depend on the DM and the world she or he creates. A world could be rich or poor with magic. Magic weapons could be very rare or very plentyful; every warrior of some status would have at least a +1 weapon or they may be very very rare were only the most powerful paladins(or any other fighting PCclass for that matter) would have a magic weapon.
I also think there are several types of weapon templates for holy paladin weapons. They don't have to be an avenger. And you could also make up your own.
Given that a Holy Avenger is made from Cold Iron instead of normal Steel, means it pretty much will ignore any Damage Reduction that a Demon has. |
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Denoples
Acolyte
39 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2006 : 02:25:24
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| I am not sure if you got the point. Wouldn't even cold iron be too weak to be used to make a proper 'longsword'? Why not chance cold iron into cold steel? I mean, does D&D even make a difference between the two or does iron mean steel as well? |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2006 : 02:49:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Denoples
I am not sure if you got the point. Wouldn't even cold iron be too weak to be used to make a proper 'longsword'? Why not chance cold iron into cold steel? I mean, does D&D even make a difference between the two or does iron mean steel as well?
it all depends on the era you role play and how much magic you would allow into a campaign. I myself style "my" realms to be similar to what many others have done, lots of magic and adventure. In the realms, look at the berserker warriors of Rashman, These guys can tear up a battle field with a blunt iron great sword. Magic my friend, can make anything possible. |
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Chataro
Learned Scribe
Singapore
114 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2006 : 05:29:40
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| So i assume its possible (though very rare) for a band of paladins to all wield a holy avenger of some sort? |
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Sian
Senior Scribe
Denmark
596 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2006 : 05:50:49
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| the inqusition :) |
what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month |
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Chataro
Learned Scribe
Singapore
114 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2006 : 05:56:42
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| What is the inqusition? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2006 : 06:58:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Chataro
So i assume its possible (though very rare) for a band of paladins to all wield a holy avenger of some sort?
I would say most likely no. The holy avenger would, in my campaign, be fairly rare. As always, it would depend on the amount of magic you would allow into your campaign. If an elite oder of Paladins weilding shiny holy swords is what you what, drive on, but I would not do it. I could see this holy oder have a massive amount of divine and arcane magic, but maybe with one person having the holy avenger. Look at the knights of the round table, Sir Lancelot d' lake was the champion of King Arthur and rumored to be able to lay on hands to heal the injured. |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2006 : 07:27:30
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quote:
Originally posted by scererar
quote:
Originally posted by Chataro
So i assume its possible (though very rare) for a band of paladins to all wield a holy avenger of some sort?
I would say most likely no. The holy avenger would, in my campaign, be fairly rare. As always, it would depend on the amount of magic you would allow into your campaign. If an elite oder of Paladins weilding shiny holy swords is what you what, drive on, but I would not do it. I could see this holy oder have a massive amount of divine and arcane magic, but maybe with one person having the holy avenger. Look at the knights of the round table, Sir Lancelot d' lake was the champion of King Arthur and rumored to be able to lay on hands to heal the injured.
The Holy Avenger as presented in the DMG in my campaigns are reproductions of the one True Holy Avenger, which is a sentient Major Artifact. |
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Chataro
Learned Scribe
Singapore
114 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2006 : 10:34:45
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| do u have the stats for the one true holy avenger? |
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Denoples
Acolyte
39 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2006 : 15:49:58
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quote:
Originally posted by scererar
In the realms, look at the berserker warriors of Rashman, These guys can tear up a battle field with a blunt iron great sword. Magic my friend, can make anything possible.
I am not sure if I really understand. A normal iron greatsword would probably bend on impact. Actually there are some accounts of Vikings that had to bend back their swords after an attack because the quality of the iron was poor. This has nothing to do with the sharpness of the edge.
If you mean a magical sword, a magical sword is by definition a masterwork sword. If one would craft a masterwork sword using cold iron one would forge a sword of cold steel(adding carbon for strenght during the forging of the metal). Otherwise it isn't a masterwork sword. An iron sword would be a poorly forged sword, unless the technology doesn't yet exist, and one would be limited to spear heads and short swords.
A band of paladins all wielding a holy avenger? To me that sounds silly. First of, a band of only paladins is already a bit silly, they would have fighters, clerics and even warriors with the paladins being the leaders/officers.
An adventuring party with only paladins could be very boring.
The ability requirements for a paladin are very high, meaning paladins are very rare. I think one could use the players maunal(I think a second edition one would be needed as ability requirements seem to have removed from 3rd edition and using the 4d6 rule.) and calculate how rare paladins would have been under adventurers, which would already be rare.
A single paladin with a holy avenger would already be a rare sight, though of course it does depend on the level of magic in the campaign. But surely that person must be a major champion and famed hero. |
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GungHo
Seeker
USA
68 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2006 : 19:14:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Chataro
Just curious, so i want to ask something.
I thought the Holy Avenger is the most holy sword in Faerun? but i seem to remember hearing about 2 or 3 of them already. Including the one in IWD1 and IWD2 and the one in baldur's gate2. Jus how many of these Holy Avenger are there in Faerun?
Well, those were video games, and because everyone wanted their paladin to have a holy avenger, they got one. The video games aren't representative of the "real world" as far as "treasure availability."
There'd be more than one, likely, but they'd be very rare in any case. Each one would be a unique weapon with it's own history. To use the video game as an example, you'd see something more along the lines of "Light of Cera Sumat," a sword with a long and glorious history, rather than "just some holy avenger," if you get my meaning. (i.e. there is no "just a holy avenger")
Acquiring one should be a major quest for a paladin... it's not something that should just be in some dragon's hoard, unless it was one bad dragon. In any given order, it's likely that only one (maybe two) paladin(s) would have a holy avenger (if anyone in the order had one at all), and that paladin would likely be the greatest knight of the order. |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2006 : 02:08:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Denoples
quote:
Originally posted by scererar
In the realms, look at the berserker warriors of Rashman, These guys can tear up a battle field with a blunt iron great sword. Magic my friend, can make anything possible.
I am not sure if I really understand. A normal iron greatsword would probably bend on impact. Actually there are some accounts of Vikings that had to bend back their swords after an attack because the quality of the iron was poor. This has nothing to do with the sharpness of the edge.
If you mean a magical sword, a magical sword is by definition a masterwork sword. If one would craft a masterwork sword using cold iron one would forge a sword of cold steel(adding carbon for strenght during the forging of the metal). Otherwise it isn't a masterwork sword. An iron sword would be a poorly forged sword, unless the technology doesn't yet exist, and one would be limited to spear heads and short swords.
Check out the Rashman section of the FRCS, and if you have not read the starlight and shadows trilogy by Elaine Cunningham, I would recommend those. |
Edited by - scererar on 22 Mar 2006 02:25:14 |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2006 : 09:04:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Chataro
do u have the stats for the one true holy avenger?
Edit: <Grumble> seems my post got lost  
I have yet to make stats for the True Holy Avenger in 3.x
The last time I had stats for it was in 1st Edition.
It would be a Sentient Major Artifact that could defeat the Damage Reduction of Any Evil Creature though.
At the very least in the hands of a Paladin it would be a +5 Axiomatic Holy Keen Longsword.
Though the blade has been known to appear as a sword of any size from a Short Sword to a Greatsword.
Hmmm, I might have to do a write-up on it sometime soon... |
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Edited by - warlockco on 23 Mar 2006 01:30:46 |
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Chataro
Learned Scribe
Singapore
114 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2006 : 14:26:34
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| ah? what is the lost post for? |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2006 : 18:33:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Denoples
[quote]Originally posted by scererar
First of, a band of only paladins is already a bit silly, they would have fighters, clerics and even warriors with the paladins being the leaders/officers.
An adventuring party with only paladins could be very boring.
The ability requirements for a paladin are very high, meaning paladins are very rare. I think one could use the players maunal(I think a second edition one would be needed as ability requirements seem to have removed from 3rd edition and using the 4d6 rule.) and calculate how rare paladins would have been under adventurers, which would already be rare.
A single paladin with a holy avenger would already be a rare sight, though of course it does depend on the level of magic in the campaign. But surely that person must be a major champion and famed hero.
On the other hand, a band of Paladins might be an interesting idea, especially if they are all of different faiths 
We have had some great "religious" campaigns, where all the characters worshipped the same deity (clerics, paladins, cleric/templars, fighter/clerics, paladin/clerics, paladin/templars, etc.).
I do not think you need to refer to "ability score requirements" or calculate any "this-many-paladins-in-a-thousand-people-crowd" numbers.
In AD&D there were no Class Features or Bonus Feats, so paladins probably had to represent "The Finest of the Bunch", but these things are in balance in 3.x edition. And I like that there are less charismatic paladins and multiclassed paladins... after all, shouldn't it be equally hard to become a LG cleric than a LG paladin? Both have different class features, yet you can become either if you are devoted enough (and there is no stat or feat for that).
I consider this matter to be dependant on circumstances and location. After all, the Lords of Imphras II are ALL paladins (Boring, isn't it?) and there probably are more paladins in Impiltur than in Zhentil Keep (so let's forget those calculations).
You're correct that a paladin armed with a Holy Avenger is a rare sight. Yet almost any paladin would probably (sooner or later) strive to wield a weapon with the "Holy" ability.
I disagree that only Great and Legendary Heroes wield Holy Avengers.
This is another matter which might depend on circumstances, the characters and the nature of the campaign - Any paladin might be heroic, and accomplish legendary deeds without having high levels or mighty powers. Maybe your 5th level paladin is the only "Sacred Warrior" of the faith present when a major temple (which has a hidden/unclaimed Holy Avenger - think of "Azuredge", for example) becomes under attack. Maybe he roleplays so well that he deserves to wield the sword during that adventure. But I agree somewhat that it is - usually - a bit unwise to hand a low/mid-level paladin a Holy Avenger "for good" (unless the party has very few (or no other) magic items). |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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GungHo
Seeker
USA
68 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2006 : 21:15:24
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I could see an older, wounded/crippled/otherwise-out-of-action paladin lending his sword/weapon to a younger paladin (or someone on the way to becoming a paladin [in my games, I usually don't let people start as paladins... I have made it a prestige class]) in order to assist the paladin with fighting a great evil. As long as the character stays true to the goal, the weapon works and can be used to full effect. (However, if the goal is deviated from, the powers are diminished. If the goal is perverted, the weapon refuses to cooperate... almost like a geas or a weapon with very high ego.)
I have toyed with making the powers of a Holy Avenger different for each each paladin (e.g. some are Flaming, some are Shocking, some have True Seeing, etc), and have the weapon "power up" as the paladin becomes more experienced with the weapon. The weapon reflects the soul of the paladin. This can result in corrupted weapons that must be saved, and sometimes destroyed, if their paladin becomes twisted into a blackguard or otherwise turned to evil. Not that blackguards needed to be more dangerous... |
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Chataro
Learned Scribe
Singapore
114 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 15:15:52
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Can't imagine what a holy paladin of Sune or Tempus would behave......
What about a paladin of Gond or Azuth? |
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Aewrik
Seeker
80 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 15:55:51
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| Isn't magic supposed to reinforce the weapon? |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2007 : 11:31:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
I consider this matter to be dependant on circumstances and location. After all, the Lords of Imphras II are ALL paladins (Boring, isn't it?) and there probably are more paladins in Impiltur than in Zhentil Keep (so let's forget those calculations).
Agreed. I think, too, that all styles of history can be make in D&D. It depends only of the taste of the players and the DM.
And about the swords, the 2nd Edition Complete Paladins Handbook have some "diferent" holy avengers. |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2007 : 01:31:44
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Didn't gareth dragonsbane have a retard powerful sword called crusader?
"Crusader" - +5 Holy Avenger Long sword, intelligent (Int 17, Wis 13, Ego 28), Align: Lawful Good, Telepathic and speaks: Common, Damaran, Dwarf, Elf, Cast Bull Strength 1/day, Cast Heal 1/day, Cast Commune 1/week, Special Purpose: Demon Slaying, Special Power: Disintegrate DC 16;If bearer flees demons, +1d6 damage vs Evil creatures, SR 15 in a 5 foot radius, Cast Dispel Magic 1/round in a 5 foot radius around bearer (no target or Counterspell) as a 25th level spellcaster, Crusader will teleport away never to return |
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Holy Avenger
