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Holy Slayer of Lathander
Acolyte
Germany
3 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Mar 2006 : 11:01:57
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This is a difficult one.
How is it that there are several differant pantheons active on Abeir-Toril and NOT interacting with each other, e.g. are the gods of Zakhara truly different gods than the Faerunian ones?
I always thought Zann was Oghma, for example. Is there an "official" answer to that or will we never know?
If there are different pantheons, are all of them answering to Ao?
And, just to be annoying: How exactly is the "new" Faerunian plane system to be understood (which I find slightly... well, let's just I say i hate the idea of separating the systems this way)? I gather by the name alone it's no longer a circle of planes, right?
Thank's for your time and answers and let Lathander shine on your souls.
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2006 : 11:12:35
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They are interacting. If you take a look into Faiths&Avatars and the two compendium books you'll see that the deities have allies and foes among the other pantheons.
Mace (who realizes he has so much knowledge stowed away he hardly knows he actually has it) |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2006 : 15:58:18
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Aye,
They do interact but no, not all of the Zakhara deities are the same as the Faerun ones. Some of them are, but most of them are seperate deities of a seperate pantheon, just like there's at least 10+ pantheons on Faerun that all have seperate deities in them, except for the ones that interact.
AO does rule over all of the pantheons.
Also in 3e, each pantheon of the different continents have thier own outerplanes and thier own astral planes. So there are at least four astrals planes connected to Toril. One for Zakhara, one for Faerun, one for Kara-tur, granted Kara-tur's is like a quasi-astral, and one for Maztica. Zakhara and Faerun share the same elemental planes and those two astrals connect to the same elemental planes. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Jindael
Senior Scribe
USA
357 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2006 : 16:18:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Also in 3e, each pantheon of the different continents have thier own outerplanes and thier own astral planes. So there are at least four astrals planes connected to Toril. One for Zakhara, one for Faerun, one for Kara-tur, granted Kara-tur's is like a quasi-astral, and one for Maztica. Zakhara and Faerun share the same elemental planes and those two astrals connect to the same elemental planes.
I don't want to derail here, but I've never understood that. Can someone point me to a scroll or tome where I could read about it? Thanks in advance. |
"You don't have a Soul. You are a Soul. You have a body."
-- C.S. Lewis |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2006 : 16:28:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Jindael
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Also in 3e, each pantheon of the different continents have thier own outerplanes and thier own astral planes. So there are at least four astrals planes connected to Toril. One for Zakhara, one for Faerun, one for Kara-tur, granted Kara-tur's is like a quasi-astral, and one for Maztica. Zakhara and Faerun share the same elemental planes and those two astrals connect to the same elemental planes.
I don't want to derail here, but I've never understood that. Can someone point me to a scroll or tome where I could read about it? Thanks in advance.
Most of the details are in the Player's Guide to Faerun, which expands on what is in the FRCS.
Or you can see Sages planar write up in Candlekeep's Code of Conduct, I believe that's where it is. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Jindael
Senior Scribe
USA
357 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2006 : 16:43:11
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Thanks! I'll look there.
EDIT: Ah, okay. I get it. Erm...seems a little peicemeal, doesn't it? |
"You don't have a Soul. You are a Soul. You have a body."
-- C.S. Lewis |
Edited by - Jindael on 10 Mar 2006 17:21:10 |
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Jindael
Senior Scribe
USA
357 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2006 : 17:53:03
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And on topic….
quote:
Originally posted by Holy Slayer of Lathander
This is a difficult one.
How is it that there are several differant pantheons active on Abeir-Toril and NOT interacting with each other, e.g. are the gods of Zakhara truly different gods than the Faerunian ones?
They are interacting with each other, at least as far as their worshippers are interacting. F&P mentions a few times, specifically about the Mulhondri pantheon, that many deities from the non-central pantheon are worried about the fact that they will eventually merge. Bast, for example, is now Sharess, the result of a merge with another deity that resulted in a new and unique goddess. If the folks who design the Realms decide to put more emphasis on Zakhara, I’m sure we are going to see an upswing in the people that worship their particular deities, and eventual merging/god-battles, etc. That other-worldly deities and pantheons arrive on Toril, bringing with them their culture, people and unique views, is one of the core concepts of the Realms as a whole.
I have no idea which gods in the Faerun pantheon are the same as the ones in the Zakhara.
quote:
Originally posted by Holy Slayer of Lathander
And, just to be annoying: How exactly is the "new" Faerunian plane system to be understood (which I find slightly... well, let's just I say i hate the idea of separating the systems this way)? I gather by the name alone it's no longer a circle of planes, right?
You understand it just like the last one, except ignore Spelljammer and Planescape. Unless you WANT them to be there, then just plop Sigil in the Shadow plane. Or just don’t use it; the old system while often having the flaw of making people think a little to linearly about the planes actually being in a physical wheel shape, didn’t have much in the way of problems, insofar as an idea that is totally conceptual and possess no enforceable limits can have flaws.
But there are debates galore here in Candlekeep about this, with many sages having very different views. I personally was very happy to see that 3ed did away with the “all worlds are connected via Sigil/crystal Spheres” idea. (Now, if we could only just retcon Zakhara and Kara-tur out. I’m willing to keep Maztica, if for no other reason than Chocolate, Vanilla and Coffee.)
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"You don't have a Soul. You are a Soul. You have a body."
-- C.S. Lewis |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2006 : 21:10:17
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| Actually, the new planar setups are still connected via Sigil since it exists in the wheel/ring and it also exists, and is the same Sigil, in FR's tree and thus, the cosmologies are still connected. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Jindael
Senior Scribe
USA
357 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2006 : 21:14:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Actually, the new planar setups are still connected via Sigil since it exists in the wheel/ring and it also exists, and is the same Sigil, in FR's tree and thus, the cosmologies are still connected. :)
What? Where? I haven't seen a single mention of it yet (in 3ed Realms, that is). O_o |
"You don't have a Soul. You are a Soul. You have a body."
-- C.S. Lewis |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2006 : 22:01:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Jindael
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Actually, the new planar setups are still connected via Sigil since it exists in the wheel/ring and it also exists, and is the same Sigil, in FR's tree and thus, the cosmologies are still connected. :)
What? Where? I haven't seen a single mention of it yet (in 3ed Realms, that is). O_o
Faiths & Pantheons in the adventures in the back, there's a portal to Sigil in one of the rooms. We've also discussed it with Rich over the years on the WOTC boards. My info about it should still be in my FR FAQ over there in the FR FAQ board. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Jindael
Senior Scribe
USA
357 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2006 : 22:13:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Jindael
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Actually, the new planar setups are still connected via Sigil since it exists in the wheel/ring and it also exists, and is the same Sigil, in FR's tree and thus, the cosmologies are still connected. :)
What? Where? I haven't seen a single mention of it yet (in 3ed Realms, that is). O_o
Faiths & Pantheons in the adventures in the back, there's a portal to Sigil in one of the rooms. We've also discussed it with Rich over the years on the WOTC boards. My info about it should still be in my FR FAQ over there in the FR FAQ board.
Well, damn, there it is. Oh well.
Next you're going to tell me that spelljammer is alive and well again. :p |
"You don't have a Soul. You are a Soul. You have a body."
-- C.S. Lewis |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2006 : 22:22:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Jindael
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Jindael
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Actually, the new planar setups are still connected via Sigil since it exists in the wheel/ring and it also exists, and is the same Sigil, in FR's tree and thus, the cosmologies are still connected. :)
What? Where? I haven't seen a single mention of it yet (in 3ed Realms, that is). O_o
Faiths & Pantheons in the adventures in the back, there's a portal to Sigil in one of the rooms. We've also discussed it with Rich over the years on the WOTC boards. My info about it should still be in my FR FAQ over there in the FR FAQ board.
Well, damn, there it is. Oh well.
Next you're going to tell me that spelljammer is alive and well again. :p
Um? It is, that is mentioned in the FRCS on pages 230 and 231 and in other current material and we've also discussed that it with Rich over the years and there is no reason to believe that spelljammers don't exist and that they don't move among FR's Prime. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 10 Mar 2006 22:23:41 |
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Jindael
Senior Scribe
USA
357 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2006 : 22:31:39
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Flying ships I can deal with; the Crystal Spheres I can't.
I know a lot of people love both of those settings, and I'm not looking down on their tastes, it just isn't mine. I suppose that my only hope is that WoTC doesn't ever spend money on reviving them. If I want something from another game world in FR, I'll use Portals.
I know it's a matter of taste, but I've always felt that both of the above "all worlds" setting diluted the core of a world. |
"You don't have a Soul. You are a Soul. You have a body."
-- C.S. Lewis |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2006 : 22:38:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Jindael
Flying ships I can deal with; the Crystal Spheres I can't.
I know a lot of people love both of those settings, and I'm not looking down on their tastes, it just isn't mine. I suppose that my only hope is that WoTC doesn't ever spend money on reviving them. If I want something from another game world in FR, I'll use Portals.
I know it's a matter of taste, but I've always felt that both of the above "all worlds" setting diluted the core of a world.
Well the sphere's are just infinite primes instead in the new cosmologies. Some posters still believe that the infinite primes are still surrounded by the crystal shell/sphere but myself, I see no reason for them, when every sphere/shell from the old settings are now infinite primes instead of having 1 infinite prime with the spheres/shells.
And thus, either way, spelljammer still exists in some form or another. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Jindael
Senior Scribe
USA
357 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2006 : 23:09:15
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Eh, rub it in, whydoncha! :) :p
back on the original topic (slightly), where is there a list of Zakhara gods? |
"You don't have a Soul. You are a Soul. You have a body."
-- C.S. Lewis |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2006 : 23:20:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Jindael
Eh, rub it in, whydoncha! :) :p
back on the original topic (slightly), where is there a list of Zakhara gods?
:)
I don't think there's ever been a hard and fast list of all the Zakhara deities. Some of the main ones are in the campaign box set but there are hundreds of lesser powered deities that have never saw print. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2006 : 01:00:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Jindael
Thanks! I'll look there.
EDIT: Ah, okay. I get it. Erm...seems a little peicemeal, doesn't it?
Well, you have to remember that it serves only as a basic explanation of the changes -- not a complete working of the planes in 2e and 3e -- which would really be outside the scope of a forum CoC. Its inclusion in the CoC afterall, many there's only some much you can add to it in order to keep it short and to the point.
I am intending on a revision though (and an update) for Candlekeep's FR FAQ which will also include details on spelljamming, crystal spheres and more on Sigil (yay!  ).
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Sarta
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2006 : 03:24:11
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With regard to the original post, Powers and Pantheons tells us that Ao regulates these pantheons and keeps things seperated. He allowed Sharess (Bast) to cross over into the Faerunian pantheon due to the fact that Mask was being worshipped within the Mulhorandi pantheon.
If you can pin down Eric Boyd you may be able to get an even better answer. |
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5695 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2006 : 10:19:16
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I am intending on a revision though (and an update) for Candlekeep's FR FAQ which will also include details on spelljamming, crystal spheres and more on Sigil (yay! ).
Well met
The "FR" FAQ, ye say, Sage? Knowing thee, it'll likely evolve into a Planescape FAQ  |
Alaundo
Candlekeep Forums Head Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
An Introduction to Candlekeep - by Ed Greenwood
The Candlekeep Compendium - Tomes of Realmslore penned by Scribes of Candlekeep
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2006 : 10:33:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Alaundo
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I am intending on a revision though (and an update) for Candlekeep's FR FAQ which will also include details on spelljamming, crystal spheres and more on Sigil (yay! ).
Well met
The "FR" FAQ, ye say, Sage? Knowing thee, it'll likely evolve into a Planescape FAQ
I'll admit... it's been tempting. I've even entertained notions of bringing both Kuje and Gray in on it just to give it a sense of "planar completeness"  .
But no, I've written a PSFAQ, and it's currently sitting over on the "Umbrasa Gravelands" forum .
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2006 : 11:03:08
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| I like the fact that no matter how many different astral planes, etc there are, there is still only one Sigil. It is unique. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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On the nature of gods and planes
