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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Jun 2003 : 13:18:21
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In another post located here, Branmakmuffin had began a discussion concerning the usage of Firearms in (A)D&D. While the discussion has a lot of interesting points about the usage of firearms in a general fantasy setting, I want to take this discussion one step further, and talk about the actual real and present threat of firearms in FR.
While reading Faiths and Pantheons, I came across an interesting portion of text in Gond's entry on page 25. It detailed the problems the church was creating for rulers across the Realms by their (the church) introduction of smokepowder and firearms. The text says that these rulers view these weapons as a challenge to their authority. It states -
quote:
Most view such weapons as a threat to their authority as they approximate the power of a wizard's spells yet are useable by commoners who are not invested in supporting the status quo.
I think it is interesting to try and extrapolate from this what the overall effect the introduction of this kind of technology will have on the Realms.
I also think that when you combine this development with the overall dogma of the church, the potential of use becomes great indeed.
Thoughts?,
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2003 : 00:44:10
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I think that some king, someplace, is going to need a whole lot of battle-power, and is going to turn to smokepowder. It doesn't need to be in guns, you know. There's a wonderful alternate history story where the first weapon they make with the gunpowder, since they have no tech base to support guns yet, is the grenade.
They collect some (I think it was) Thracian shepherds (this is 6th century Eastern Roman Empire, by the way, reign of Justinian) to hurl crude, lit-fuse fragmentation bombs by way of their staff slings. They work in teams of two: the slinger and the fuse-cutter/lighter, the latter always being the shepherd's wife. Why? Well, fuses are tricky. If you cut it too short, it blows up in your face. Too long, and the enemy throws it away -- probably in your direction. You're trusting your life to the person cutting your fuse. Who would you trust more than your wife?
Later on (several books later; the books are action-packed, so it's surprising how little time they cover), they're up to percussion caps. When they hit a solid object after being activated (simple pin, if I recall correctly), the cap sparks and it blows up. The way to make sure it lands right is very simple -- a foot-long ribbon on the opposite side. It's basically a rudder; the same thing is used on very light model rockets to slow them down, since they're usually too small to pack in a proper parachute.
Another good innovation was the reintroduction of the chariot. See, the folks in charge know about future history. They know about internal combustion engines -- at least enough to know that they're way out of reach for a while. But what isn't out of reach is a mobile rocket platform. But instead of a jeep or a truck, it's a two-horse chariot. Fast moving, mobile, perfect for some small rockets. They can't stand up to a cavalry charge (that's why they were obsolete) but they don't need to. Just like the rocket-jeeps we used to use never went right at the front line.
And black-powder rockets are really easy to make, even without plastics. They'd be expensive, since things like balsa wood aren't exactly common either, but it's still possible. Especially in the Realms (see? not straying yet), where you can use magic. Some knowledge of aerodynamics is necessary, of course, if you actually want to hit your target. Part of that aiming can be done with a metal tube, such as bronze, pointed where you want it to go. Instant mortar. Or shoulder it, and you get a cast-bronze bazooka -- which, at its basic, was nothing more than a shoulder-mounted rocket launcher. You still need to fix the problem of mid-air swerving (which is a pretty big problem, I can tell you), but the tube helps.
Defenses are tricky against gunpowder weapons, of course, but not insurmountable. Later castles were designed and built to withstand cannonfire -- I don't have any records of them under attack, though, so I don't know how they did. But the softer the rock, the better against projectiles. It's harder to build, and the trade-off isn't as great as against a trebuchet like the famous War Wolf. Something to do with ballistics that I haven't studyied, I'm afraid. Grenade shields are easy as well -- they're basically angled shutters. Not so good against bullets, but it works.
Now, I'd like to see how this sort of thing might work into the Realms. But only as an experiment. I think it would change the flavor of our favorite D&D world too much. However, I've put a lot of thought into this sort of thing, and I love shaking things up. It's part of why I write fan fiction. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2003 : 14:13:34
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It's funny you should mention all this, because in 2e there was a kit that dealt with longbows and staff slings that fired projectile grenade-like weapons. It used the rules for grenade-like missiles and scatter diagrams from the 2e DMG to illustrate the effects of these weapons in combat.
I know the system sounds crude, but perhaps it could be modified to incorporate the kind of system you are proposing here Bookwyrm. If anything, it would serve as an interesting hypothetical or what-if experiment to test the overall effects such weapons would have in the FR gaming environment. I may just have to dig out my old 2e books, and research the basics of the material in order to present a set of rules here.
What do you think?.
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branmakmuffin
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2003 : 16:42:45
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Sage of Perth:
quote:
<snip>
While reading Faiths and Pantheons <snip> It states -
quote:
Most view such weapons as a threat to their authority as they approximate the power of a wizard's spells yet are useable by commoners who are not invested in supporting the status quo.
<snip>
This is the same anti-firearm argument taken by many in real-life Western Europe, i.e. that such easy to use and deadly weapons would give the great unwashed too much power. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2003 : 16:50:12
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Here's a really interesting what-if scenario then - Perhaps we should expect a mass series of Firearm-lead revolutions across the Realms. A great horde of 'unwashed' peasants clutching smokepowder weapons forged by plans stolen by Banite clerics from the Church of Gond.
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branmakmuffin
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2003 : 18:28:20
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Sage:
That certainly would be an interesting twist to put into an FR campaign.
I realized I am simply reiterating much of your previous post, but I can see it now: some organization that believes it stands much to gain by enabling the masses to overthrow the powers-that-be, secretly manufacturing firearms and equipping these "revolutionaries" and sending them out to do battle with the likes of Elminster, etc. Such an event successfully carried out would sweep Faerun with changes to make the Time of Troubles seem a bar brawl by comparison. |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2003 : 06:02:29
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| You know, the more I think about it, the more slinged grenades make sense in the context of the Realms. I still don't want them in the real Realms, but in certain . . . offshoots, such as fan-created campaigns, they would work. Back in the old Firearms topic, Artalis just mentioned that it's just another alchemical compound. He's quite right . . . and simple fuse grenades are well within the technical abilities of the Realms. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2003 : 08:01:36
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In one offshoot of an adventure in FR, I went as far as using sling grenades made out of 'greek-fire'. It was a fun adventure, but the potential for abuse became evident when several fighter PC's starting utilising the weapons on just about everything. When they told me they wanted to incorporate 'smoke-powder' weapons into the campaign, I quickly changed the adventure structure back to canon rules. Needless to say, I don't allow those players in my gaming sessions anymore.
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2003 : 20:49:19
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I am considering revising my feelings on FR technology to actually ALLOW firearms, but only allow them when made magically by priests of GOND. That would make them as rare as other magic items.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2003 : 09:20:57
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That's a good idea Mournblade. While it allows the incorporation of firearms in a campaign, the restriction you stated should- at least for the time being - keep firearms in balance with the rest of the core campaign.
I am interested to know however, that if you allow a certain amount of realism in your campaigns, eventually other rival Churches and/or Deity orders are going to take note of these rare new weapons and hope to acquire some for their own personal use. As I stated before, I find it hard to believe that the Church of Bane will sit idly by while a technology such as 'firearms' gains notice in the Realms. I would think that they would want to acquire the secrets of this technology, to use to further their own tyrannical ends. This could cause greater plot development later on in the campaign perhaps?.
May all your learning be free and unfettered
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2003 : 00:14:20
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My simple answer to that is that GOND is the wonderbringer! HE has the secret to the magic, and it is not even his priests that really know how to use the magic, they just infuse the items with the magic. If the church of bane got a hold of an enchanted firearm, they COULD use it. But if the firearm was just made and no enchantment laid upon it, it would be a club. It needs the magic of GOND to work. Remember when Mystra toook away the magic of healing (I think in crucible). Well Gond would do the same thing with invention.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
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Jaysen Darclyght
Acolyte
USA
43 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2003 : 15:13:22
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This is a subject that always perplexes me. Let me first state that I am a fan of firearms. However, that bias is not a limiting one. I am capable of adapting to mainstay FR life, and I have, as a alcohol loving rogue. Still, the introduction of firearms is a tricky topic. In my own experience in adventure writing, I have reluctantly tailored my writings to accomodate some friends who are not friends of guns. But then, who needs guns? Crossbows are quite similar in function and operation (to a point), and can be just as deadly. In the real world, the Catholic Church banned them from European wars! There is also the repeating crossbow. Take smokepowder away and leave a civilization with a need for an advanced mode of killing its enemies, and the crossbow will evolve. For my adventure, I had the antagonist race use automatic crossbows. They work with the use of springs and locking mechanisms attached to the bow arms and allow (in theory) for a clip to be rapidly used without much difficulty. So guns are not necessarily the only problem FR might encounter. There are other alternatives, given the chance any of them might equal firearms in destructive and political power.
If there are any flaws in my argument, please point them out for me to improve upon. |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2003 : 18:25:59
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I can see the value in them...particularly for the wizard caught off guard...
A handy flintlock could definitely be helpful when Banthwerpus Figglesnarf the wizard is suddenly surprised by Orcbasher McWizardstomper midspell... |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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William of Waterdeep
Senior Scribe
USA
829 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2003 : 05:25:08
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| I wish Guns and Gunpowder had never been added to the Realms but I guess it is one of those things that is destined to happen in any world that has humans.Like LotR Two Towers where Saruman made the explosive to blow a hole in the wall of Helms Deep. |
Courage isn't the lack of fear but rather believing in and doing what you know is right even though fear is present.
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Jaysen Darclyght
Acolyte
USA
43 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2003 : 12:38:17
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| Mr. Waterdeep, ArionElenim, you are both right I think. Mankind seems to have few things in mind. Survival, control, and destructive power. Regardless of the means, humans will always want weapons that can do more damage and kill more people in less time. It is in our nature. Smokepowder may have been a mistake to have been added to the realms but still, such a thing was inevitable. |
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William of Waterdeep
Senior Scribe
USA
829 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2003 : 23:59:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Jaysen Darclyght
Mr. Waterdeep, ArionElenim, you are both right I think. Mankind seems to have few things in mind. Survival, control, and destructive power. Regardless of the means, humans will always want weapons that can do more damage and kill more people in less time. It is in our nature. Smokepowder may have been a mistake to have been added to the realms but still, such a thing was inevitable.
Mr. Waterdeep????? Please,I may be old but I would rather you call me Will or William.I am reminded of my age when I look in the mirror.
Now as for your post yes,Basically we are creatures of destruction and always have and always will seek a more powerful weapon.It is sad but true enough that we can only hold it in check but never completely stop it. |
Courage isn't the lack of fear but rather believing in and doing what you know is right even though fear is present.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2003 : 07:47:20
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William of Waterdeep said -
quote:
I wish Guns and Gunpowder had never been added to the Realms but I guess it is one of those things that is destined to happen in any world that has humans.
Not all campaign setting obey this law, at least as far as I know. I do not think the Scarred Lands campaign uses firearms (although I don't have all of those tomes), and Monte Cook's new world doesn't appear to have made much concession for firearms.
Also, my main homebrew campaign world, Amasaria, has not yet reached the level of technology necessary for the production of firearms.
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Jaysen Darclyght
Acolyte
USA
43 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2003 : 12:39:49
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Forgive me Will.
It is a truth that not all game worlds are at a technological level that would allow for the creation of firearms. However, like i previously said, firearms aren't necessary for widespread destruction. Magic can do it, and so can the Ancient Chinese. Even when they didn't use gunpowder weapons, they would frequently raise armies of a few tens of thousands up to a few hundreds of thousands. Armed with bows, spears, swords, crossbows, pikes, etc. many a man was left dead on the ground. Thanks though to strategy, else China would have probably wiped itself out.
Point of this?
Large enough populations, enough feudal lords, a medieval industrial infrastructure, and legal drafts, all equal mass destruction without firearms. Humanity is so peaceful, isn't it? |
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William of Waterdeep
Senior Scribe
USA
829 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2003 : 03:49:09
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Sage said-
Quote:
Not all campaign setting obey this law, at least as far as I know. I do not think the Scarred Lands campaign uses firearms (although I don't have all of those tomes), and Monte Cook's new world doesn't appear to have made much concession for firearms.
Also, my main homebrew campaign world, Amasaria, has not yet reached the level of technology necessary for the production of firearms.
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William:
Thank you Sage for the info but I would love to hear more of your homebrew world Amasaria.Have you posted anything here about it?
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Jaysen said-
Quote:
Forgive me Will.
It is a truth that not all game worlds are at a technological level that would allow for the creation of firearms. However, like i previously said, firearms aren't necessary for widespread destruction. Magic can do it, and so can the Ancient Chinese. Even when they didn't use gunpowder weapons, they would frequently raise armies of a few tens of thousands up to a few hundreds of thousands. Armed with bows, spears, swords, crossbows, pikes, etc. many a man was left dead on the ground. Thanks though to strategy, else China would have probably wiped itself out.
Point of this?
Large enough populations, enough feudal lords, a medieval industrial infrastructure, and legal drafts, all equal mass destruction without firearms. Humanity is so peaceful, isn't it?
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William:
Thats true magic can probably cause more damage than a minigun and as you said,"The Chinese did it without guns or magic".Magic is more fun to me and suits the Realms better. |
Courage isn't the lack of fear but rather believing in and doing what you know is right even though fear is present.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2003 : 05:11:50
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William of Waterdeep said -
quote:
Thank you Sage for the info but I would love to hear more of your homebrew world Amasaria.Have you posted anything here about it?
I've posted snippets here and there on this forum from time to time, mostly as references to my campaign setting. But for the most part, my website (which is still down) had most of the information about the world, and it's associate crystal sphere.
What exactly do you wish to know about it?.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Cyric
Senior Scribe
Norway
388 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2003 : 18:57:41
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| just asking is Cyric in your world ?? and firearms are wrong and i wish they where never taken in to the realms |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2003 : 08:01:27
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Cyric has no official worshiper base anywhere on Amasaria. There are small outsider cults, and strange conclaves who worship alien gods (alien at least with regards to the Amasarian pantheon), scattered across much of the main continent. The only 'known' and open church of Cyric on Amasaria exists in the Magistracy of Ti, but given that realm's proclivity for all manner of strange and bizarre belief systems, that is no surprise.
However, in the Black Lands' domains of the Lich Lords, that is another matter entirely. Cyric has a strong base of power in those realms - the only problem being, the Black Lands do not actually exist on Amasaria...it is really a demi-plane that occupies the same space the actual land would occupy.
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Jaysen Darclyght
Acolyte
USA
43 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2003 : 12:25:41
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Cyric, I have a scenario for you.
You are a common farmer, and an invading army of oppressive tyrants is coming your way to stamp out resistance to their control. They use swords, shields, bows, magic, etc. You have a family with a few sons, all with a flintlock. You have experience hunting in the wilderness, so you can pull of a sucessful guerilla war for a while. Would you still think guns are wrong?
If they're wrong, then guess what, the U S of A wouldn't be here, because the scenario is quite like the American Revolution. Guns can be destructive, but they are necessary sometimes to tilt the favor for the side of justice. They are a necessary evil. |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2003 : 16:00:05
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Why why WHY do people insist on talking about Real Life instead of the Realms in this matter?
Cyric said in the Realms. He didn't say anything about whether he thought they were evil or not.
For those who know what it is, I'm a strong, strong supporter of the Second Amendment. So is my brother, and he's a cop who sees just what people with guns do. I cringe in frustration when people say "I don't believe in guns." Not only does belief come into it, but you can't simply wish violence away by blaming the instument.
Instead, I think there should be gun education. Heck, we've got sexual education. I'd like to see some schools offer courses in firearms. Then those kids would see what guns do and how they work. Most gun violence comes from people thinking of handguns as magic wands or something. Teaching them the reality takes that away and gives them more respect for what guns can do if carelessly used.
My niece will go through that when she grows up. In the meantime, she knows she's not supposed to play with guns or anything like them. Her father takes gun safety seriously. Even though both his personal pistol and the department-issued firearm are locked up in a fireproof safe, along with every speck of amunition, he knows what happens when kids with no idea what a gun is start playing with one.
I saw on TV how a mother blamed a gun for her son getting himself shot. He was just a kid, who found a gun and accidentally shot himself in the foot when he picked it up. If he had been properly taught about guns, he would have known not to pick it up; he would have known to call a grownup, who would call the police. But no: his mother wanted to "protect" him. Now that kid will have a limp for the rest of his life, and she blames it on the gun. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Jaysen Darclyght
Acolyte
USA
43 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2003 : 16:32:37
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Forgive me, Bookwyrm.
I'll try to limit the references to Real life, but I only do because, tis all I know, and well, we write, and I guess argue, what we know.
Again, a thousand thousand apologies. |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2003 : 17:05:09
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It's okay. I just vented a few of my own frustrations that way. While I really don't tie myself to any political party, I find that I agree with the Republicans more than the Democrats. Or perhaps it's because I disagree with so much of the Democratic platform, and in this country it's basically one or the other?
Well, the conservative/libral, D/R argument doesn't really come into it. It's all what I think. Abortion is evil. It's a fundamental right to bear your own personal arms and be trained in their use; but personal arms means a pistol or rifle or shotgun, not something that needs a tripod or has a blast radius. Cigarettes are disgusting, and should be banned. Homosexuality shouldn't be affected by law, even though I don't like it myself.
*sigh* Well, if human beings agreed on everything, I guess it'd be pretty boring after a while, huh?
'Nuff said. Back to the Realms. I've assumed on Alaundo's munificent generosity too much as it is. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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The Cardinal
Senior Scribe
Canada
647 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2003 : 05:50:53
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Your right sage... If human beings agreed on everything it'd be worse than boring... It'd be Canada..  
Seriously though Most governmental enities are cracked and corrupt anyways so it really wouldn't matter who is in power as nothing would be done anyways .
As for the church of gond and Gunns (or however it is said in realms speak). There really isn't than may gripes I have with it... It is rather unfortunate in some ways but not others. Gunnes provide an added threat to people (as the common man needs none of the skills, or training to use gunns). But it also allows the common man to finally be on equal level/equal grounds with a mage or wizard. Truthfully it's all up to how one looks at it. Gond only makes it, like Ohgma, it's really not the device or informaion. It's HOW it's applied. A spell, an invention, a power source, none of these are not evil but can be used for evil things (Fireball, Gunns, Atomic energy can=Nuke *roughly*.... Of course my personal fav combines all three; the first level 13 spell: Bigby's Crushing Tactical Nuke )
But we can take Amn as an example, since (as far as I know or remember) Magic is a Banned thing punishable by various horrific ends... well not really but more or less. On can say magic is bad, but then gunns would have to be banned too, but it's techinically magic, but not really so it goes through the Amnish red tape and get's lost, then found, then readdressed, then lost again... recycled, goes back for rewording then.. well you get the idea... now what was I going to say? 
Well anyways it's not really Gond's fault or his church's fault. They are following their God's dogma, and as I've said eleswhere, a god is static, unchanging, thus not his fault either.. it simply is...
And the Play rolls on... |
It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown |
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Cyric
Senior Scribe
Norway
388 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2003 : 21:50:18
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true bu i dont like the way its going what wil be next trains and cars, i hope it dont come to that.
Seriously though Most governmental enities are cracked and corrupt anyways so it really wouldn't matter who is in power as nothing would be done anyways.
You coulden have said it moore right. |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2005 : 08:55:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
I think that some king, someplace, is going to need a whole lot of battle-power, and is going to turn to smokepowder. It doesn't need to be in guns, you know. There's a wonderful alternate history story where the first weapon they make with the gunpowder, since they have no tech base to support guns yet, is the grenade.
(snip)
And black-powder rockets are really easy to make, even without plastics. They'd be expensive, since things like balsa wood aren't exactly common either, but it's still possible. Especially in the Realms (see? not straying yet), where you can use magic. Some knowledge of aerodynamics is necessary, of course, if you actually want to hit your target. Part of that aiming can be done with a metal tube, such as bronze, pointed where you want it to go. Instant mortar. Or shoulder it, and you get a cast-bronze bazooka -- which, at its basic, was nothing more than a shoulder-mounted rocket launcher. You still need to fix the problem of mid-air swerving (which is a pretty big problem, I can tell you), but the tube helps.
Defenses are tricky against gunpowder weapons, of course, but not insurmountable. Later castles were designed and built to withstand cannonfire -- I don't have any records of them under attack, though, so I don't know how they did. But the softer the rock, the better against projectiles. It's harder to build, and the trade-off isn't as great as against a trebuchet like the famous War Wolf. Something to do with ballistics that I haven't studyied, I'm afraid. Grenade shields are easy as well -- they're basically angled shutters. Not so good against bullets, but it works.
Now, I'd like to see how this sort of thing might work into the Realms. But only as an experiment. I think it would change the flavor of our favorite D&D world too much. However, I've put a lot of thought into this sort of thing, and I love shaking things up. It's part of why I write fan fiction.
(Long reply, based on Earth history, and mostly relevant)
The first gunpowder weapons made in China were "fire spears," spears with packets of burning gunpowder attached. Not only could the spear impale and kill, but the gunpowder could inflict burns and blind by its flash. Such a contrivance requires very little technological sophistication and the black powder needn't be as carefully balanced and evenly milled as gunpowder.
Later, during the Mongol invasion (or the Tuigan invasions, to think in Realms terms), better techniques allowed such gizmos as a rocket which shot along the ground, spewing sparks as it made its way through besieging infantry or oncoming cavalry. Grenades attached to ballista bolts or bombs flung by catapults were an easy innovation.
In the Realms, Gond needn't be the only Power interested in smokepowder weaponry. One of the first adaptations of greandes and bombs was as vectors for biological weapons. Talona would certainly be interested in a technology which can imbed dung and rotting or diseased meat into the flesh of soldiers along with toxic sherds of clay or glass tainted with smokepowder residue (and whatever alchemical villanies the twisted mind can conceive). A clay jar enchanted as a Contagion vector and packed with smokepowder could deliver disease in a large burst area when the powder exploded.
The development of guns came centuries after the first use of black powder as a weapon. It's quite possible that -- barring outside input -- Toril may "give up the gun" because guns are too dangerous to use unless they are carefully crafted (at a prohibitive price). In Earth experience rockets and bombs were not terribly effective until the devlopment of guns led to better powders. Why spend thousands of gold pieces on a cannon when free-lance mages are available for a fraction of that price to hurl fireballs and lightning bolts? Cheap rockets, fire spears, and bombs and grenades are a different matter, but their usefulness is primarily as weapons of "shock and awe" or as incendiaries in a siege.
One very practical use of smokepowder (mirroring Earth practice) would be in "thunder" weapons, big bang makers to shake the ground and make loud noises. Such weapons can frighten horses or other riding beasts ... and break the concentration of spellslingers. A fifty gold piece rocket which causes an enemy spellcaster to waste spells or (even better!) fumble a spell would be cheap at twice the price. If spellcasters know that such bang weapons may also be carrying biologicals, they may choose to simply take cover (or even take a powder) when facing an enemy armed with smokepowder weapons. The disarming of their spellcasters might cripple an army; mercenaries suddenly deprived of magical support may refuse to fight. Faced with such a possibility, what general wouldn't want to be certain that his forces are also equipped with smokepowder weapons just to even the score? Never mind the Zhentarim -- the next big wave of villainous merchants may be peddlers of smokepowder weapons, happily selling arms to anyone who can afford to buy them, and making certain that rivals are kept informed of the weapons purchases of their enemies, so that they will buy more smokepowder weapons in an effort to have more than their enemies -- a global arms race may well take place in the 1380s DR.
The counterpart of any arms race would be a race to build fortifications. As has already been pointed out, the best defense against cannon fire is low, thick, soft walling. If cannon don't catch on, however, fortification engineers will realize that walls need to be built high and hard to prevent rockets from passing into the fortress beyond. If cannon become common, "star" fortifications with many projecting towers to allow for crossfire will be the way to go. If cannon don't catch on, straight lengths of walls which allow for massed archery and easy mobility of spellcasters on the battlements will be the way to go (or rather, the way to continue building castles). Defensive cannon use is most effective with multiple forts laying down cannon fire over as much area as possible. If cannon remain prohibitively expensive (or deadly to cannon crews if made cheaply), the current practice of building a few powerful castles will be the best defensive policy. If Toril follows Earth's history, a few families or guilds who have expertise in fortress building will dominate the market.
Unfortunately for defenders, once cannon become effective siege weapons, fortresses become astronomically expensive ... or rapidly lapse into obsolesence. Given that castles in high magic worlds already have to be hideously expensive to defend against magical attacks, scrying, and teleporting attackers, adding new defensive measures against cannon could bankrupt even a rich country. Massive, mobile armies raised by conscription (or expensive crack mercenary forces) will prove to be more effective and more economical than fixed fortifications.
Unfortunately, large, mobile armies are an excellent vector for epidemic diseases (especially when they settle down in enemy territory for a siege), so Talona will find herself in a win-win situation: smokepowder weapons spreading poisons and diseases, and the mass armies raised to defend against enemies with smokepowder weapons serving as disease vectors themselves. (Larger armies will also add worship to all the war gods, putting them in Gond's corner, too. With a large pantheon dependent on worshippers, smokepowder will likely be encouraged by war gods, no matter what "gallant" and "heroic" commanders may think of smokepowder weapons and the "cowards" who use them; this will lead to a different cultural perception of smokepowder weapons on Toril than existed on Earth towards gunpowder weapons.)
Currently, flying attackers are among the biggest threats to defenders on the ground. Curiously, with rockets at their disposal ground troops will likely have little to fear from airborne attackers -- hippogriffs and griffins are unlikely to consent to fly over people who are launching rockets with red glare and bombs bursting in air at them. Even dragons will be hard pressed to overfly troops with rockets -- whatever the elemental or force vulnerability of a dragon, some form of rocket will be able to deliver it in an exploding burst in sufficiently close proximity to discourage all but the most stubborn (or foolhardy) dragon. Magical beasts and dragons may rapidly become endangered species on a Toril armed to the teeth with rockets, bombs, and grenades. But that's not a concern of Gond's. |
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2005 : 17:17:43
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| I believe that Mystra and her followers will continue to thwart the spread of smokepowder throughout the Realms. Gondites also work to keep smokepowder under control, since they would lose much of their power if smokepowder became readily available to commoners. Combine this with the fact that many rulers are likely to ban smokepowder because of the fears alluded to in this thread. All this considered, I don't really see smokepowder weapons becoming too prominent in the Realms. Having played a Techsmith of Gond, I can attest to the fact that smokepowder grenades aren't all they're cracked up to be. When the radius of the explosion exceeds the range of the grenade, you're asking for trouble. Firearms are unreliable, one of my players really wanted to use a gun, so I let him. The first time he used it, it backfired on him. Guns take as long to load as a heavy crossbow, but a heavy crossbow won't misfire and blow up in your face. I see firearms as nothing more than a novelty that magic users look down upon as inferior, and warriors look down upon as a sign of weakness. As far as smokepowder itself is concerned, I make it illegal and extremely expensive (except for Gondites who know how to make it), which makes it a rarity in our campaigns. |
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The Church of Gond and Firearms
