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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Jul 2006 : 18:59:02
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Can't fault your logic, Sammael, but as one who knows both Ed's original and the published Realms, I'm afraid the reverse is true: the published Realms is a lot less diverse and colourful than Ed's original.
Yes, there have been many, many cooks in the kitchen over the years - - but they've been hired to cook dishes chosen for them. Time and again the published Realms has visited the same locales, but not "filled in" areas right next to them.
So we've never had proper coverage of Everlund (or Silverymoon, for that matter!), the Dragon Coast, and so on and on and on. Nor ever had Ed's desired "merchant shipping cargoes" game, that would enable sailing the Sword Coast FOR A REASON play, complete with currents, uncharted isles, and those other continents.
We've never properly seen Sossal, or Semphar and the surrounding lands. We haven't even had in-depth coverage of Chessenta or the Wizards Reach. And then there's Sembia . . .
If we'd had all Ed, all the time, the published Realms would have come out far more slowly, yes. But if Ed had been the head chef, we'd certainly have had "full map coverage" (and NOT had the map get twisted and pruned between 2nd and 3rd editions to take away far too many gaps that hadn't yet been addressed.
Believe me, Ed has notes on everything. The published Realms (and especially game edition rules changes) has made that lore increasingly out-of-date, but Ed did paint (and hand to TSR, back in 1986) a tapestry far more diverse and creative than what's been published.
Remember, TSR and now WotC have been gaming companies interested above all in "what will sell." Someone always has to decide what to publish and what not to publish. And they'll always choose something "familiar" if it sold well last time, over some place new. Hence Waterdeep over and over, the Dales ditto, and so on.
Again: your logic is impeccable. However, in this case it just ain't true.
love,
THO |
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RodOdom
Senior Scribe
USA
509 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2006 : 21:59:21
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I'd love to see more on the Chessenta area, Lake of Steam and Chult.
And retcon all those silly additions like Matzica and Al-Qadim ! |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2006 : 22:17:58
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| Thanks, Hooded One! You've said all of the things I personally thought, but didn't have the facts to back up. :) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Mazrim_Taim
Learned Scribe
341 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2006 : 01:19:22
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| Ah, THO. I hope that in time we will get to see more and more of Ed's original Realms. There are far too many places in FR that need detailing. |
And if the PCs DO win their ways through all the liches to Larloch, “he” will almost certainly be just another lich (loaded with explosive spells) set up as a decoy, with dozens of hidden liches waiting to pounce on any surviving PCs who ‘celebrate’ after they take Larloch down. As the REAL Larloch watches (magical scrying) from afar. Myself, as DM, I’d be wondering: “Such a glorious game, so many opportunities laid out before your PCs to devote your time to, and THIS fixation is the best you can come up with? Are you SURE you’re adventurers?” -Ed Greenwood
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EytanBernstein
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
704 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2006 : 03:19:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Mazrim_Taim
Ah, THO. I hope that in time we will get to see more and more of Ed's original Realms. There are far too many places in FR that need detailing.
I'd love to see more of Ed's work. When writing FR lore, I always try to be extremely respectful of existing material, attempting to supplement, enhance, and update, rather than replace, rewrite, and reimagine. |
http://eytanbernstein.com - the official website of Eytan Bernstein |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2006 : 03:37:26
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A couple of DoF questions
How much repeat material is DOF ie does it contain anything weve already got from the Wyrms of the North articles on the WOTC website or are all the Dragons "new" (Or at least previously undetailed)
Does DoF have stats for Brimstone from the Year of Rogue Dragon trilogy? |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
Edited by - Dargoth on 07 Jul 2006 03:38:22 |
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EytanBernstein
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
704 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2006 : 05:26:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
A couple of DoF questions
How much repeat material is DOF ie does it contain anything weve already got from the Wyrms of the North articles on the WOTC website or are all the Dragons "new" (Or at least previously undetailed)
Does DoF have stats for Brimstone from the Year of Rogue Dragon trilogy?
Sorry, both of those are NDA. I can say that the focus of the book wasn't to invent a bunch of new individuals that didn't previously exist. Rather, it was to detail and explore pre-existing dragon-related aspects of the Realms. As Eric mentioned before, the book does not focus exclusively on the events of the Year of Rogue Dragons, though it does cover them. |
http://eytanbernstein.com - the official website of Eytan Bernstein |
Edited by - EytanBernstein on 07 Jul 2006 05:29:41 |
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2006 : 05:56:46
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Again: your logic is impeccable. However, in this case it just ain't true.
I think it’s inaccurate to paint the superb contributions of designers and authors other than Ed as little more than repetitive works that bring nothing new to the table with each iteration.
This approach forgets that these people have taken the Realms in places Ed never would have (and to his own personal delight, no less) were he writing solo for TSR/WotC.
If you could take all of Ed’s combined writings/notes on the Realms and put them in a book, then do the same for what TSR/WotC have produced (including here what of Ed’s was published), then Ed’s ‘personal’ book would be far more diverse.
However, the TSR/WotC book would be far better for playing DnD*. I think it’s this last that Sammael was more or less talking about when he made his last reply.
J. Grenemyer
*In fact you’d want a less diverse setting, so DMs have room to fully do their own thing! |
09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
Edited by - Sanishiver on 07 Jul 2006 06:02:00 |
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Chyron
Learned Scribe
Hong Kong
279 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2006 : 06:53:00
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quote:
Originally posted by EytanBernstein
I can say that the focus of the book wasn't to invent a bunch of new individuals that didn't previously exist. Rather, it was to detail and explore pre-existing dragon-related aspects of the Realms. As Eric mentioned before, the book does not focus exclusively on the events of the Year of Rogue Dragons, though it does cover them.
Regarding YoRD Can you be more specific in terms of coverage? 10% of the book, a paragraph, a page?
Can you let slip the percentage of say new material vs. older updated material (e.g. FOR1 Draconomicon, or other source material)? |
Just My Thoughts
Chyron :)
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EytanBernstein
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
704 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2006 : 09:21:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Chyron
quote:
Originally posted by EytanBernstein
I can say that the focus of the book wasn't to invent a bunch of new individuals that didn't previously exist. Rather, it was to detail and explore pre-existing dragon-related aspects of the Realms. As Eric mentioned before, the book does not focus exclusively on the events of the Year of Rogue Dragons, though it does cover them.
Regarding YoRD Can you be more specific in terms of coverage? 10% of the book, a paragraph, a page?
Can you let slip the percentage of say new material vs. older updated material (e.g. FOR1 Draconomicon, or other source material)?
More than a page. I haven't seen the final version, so I couldn't give you percentage yet.
I don't really think about things in terms of older or newer material. When I write about a specific region or NPC, I look up what has been done before, use that as a base, and supplement based on the needs of the book, the influence of events since the previous material was published, and my own vision of how things could go. Most material grows organically out of existing material, threads, and hooks, expanding where things are vague or when little is written. Sometimes I combine two seeds from different books, or even different editions, to get something new, but with firmly planted roots. The seeds are often something as small as one line.
I'll use an example that is definitely not blocked by NDA. Nartheling was first described in Unapproachable East in a one paragraph entry. That entry and one on Umbergoth about 10 pages later gave me more than enough to flesh out the creature and add some detail. I expanded from the territorial dispute seed and the mention of Umbergoth as a vast mountain. I never know what's going to spark in my head, but the process for me is organic. I didn't set out to have a dragon/beholder war. It just happenned when things came together in my head based on a combination of the project's needs and existing source material.
I can't give you a more detailed answer on percentages until I actually see the product. I'd feel really sheepish if I said that something was in the book, then it was cut for whatever reasons. I can say that even material that seems like an update most often contains significant new ideas and developments.
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http://eytanbernstein.com - the official website of Eytan Bernstein |
Edited by - EytanBernstein on 07 Jul 2006 10:46:25 |
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Chyron
Learned Scribe
Hong Kong
279 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2006 : 09:58:22
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Thanks Mr. Bernstein. I understand your position and not wanting to jump the gun on releasing what could potentially be mis-information, but do appreciate the insights you have given (and am still looking forward to the release  ) |
Just My Thoughts
Chyron :)
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Verghityax
Learned Scribe
131 Posts |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 01:02:42
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Does Dragons of Faerun have much info on the Waterdeep/sword coast region during the Year of Rogue Dragons? |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 02:10:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Does Dragons of Faerun have much info on the Waterdeep/sword coast region during the Year of Rogue Dragons?
Yes and no. It's a harder question than you think as the book isn't "written that way". The book is focused on individuals (i.e. specific dragons) and organizations. Regional references are made as needed.
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6653 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 02:38:54
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The only regions dealt with from the preview seem to be Threskel and Unther. Given what Eric and Eytan have said, I think the product is dragon-focused. That is, if they showcase or talk about a dragon in the Waterdeep/Sword Coast locale, then inter alia they will deal with that dragon's actions there. I think the same thing would be the case for the various 'groups' noted in the preview also. In terms of general information about what happened in Waterdeep during the Rage, I think it will be provided in bits and pieces depending on dragon activities there, if any.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 02:46:22
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Hmmmmm Ill try some more specfic questions and hope we dont run into an NDA
Whats Im looking for in DoF
1) What the Cult of the Dragon got up to in the Waterdeep/Sword cast region during the Year of rogue dragons
2) Does DoF have examples where Dragons fell to the Rage and caused "incidents" in the region
3) Did anything happan to any of the Wyrms of the North dragons ie Death or Dragon attacks during the YoRD
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“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6653 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 04:07:32
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Runaway, runaway .... NDA NDA
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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EytanBernstein
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
704 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 07:20:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Hmmmmm Ill try some more specfic questions and hope we dont run into an NDA
Whats Im looking for in DoF
1) What the Cult of the Dragon got up to in the Waterdeep/Sword cast region during the Year of rogue dragons
2) Does DoF have examples where Dragons fell to the Rage and caused "incidents" in the region
3) Did anything happan to any of the Wyrms of the North dragons ie Death or Dragon attacks during the YoRD
1) Can't comment on that until I see the final cut. My Cult adventure does not take place in that region.
2) Yes. I cannot say what specifically happened to which dragons.
3) Yes. Something does happen to/with some of them. What, I cannot say. |
http://eytanbernstein.com - the official website of Eytan Bernstein |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 23:36:13
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quote:
Originally posted by EytanBernstein
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Hmmmmm Ill try some more specfic questions and hope we dont run into an NDA
Whats Im looking for in DoF
1) What the Cult of the Dragon got up to in the Waterdeep/Sword cast region during the Year of rogue dragons
2) Does DoF have examples where Dragons fell to the Rage and caused "incidents" in the region
3) Did anything happan to any of the Wyrms of the North dragons ie Death or Dragon attacks during the YoRD
1) Can't comment on that until I see the final cut. My Cult adventure does not take place in that region.
2) Yes. I cannot say what specifically happened to which dragons.
3) Yes. Something does happen to/with some of them. What, I cannot say.
Hmm looks like Ill have to put my campaign planning on hold until DoF comes out |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 23:52:26
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| I'm glad to see the book seems not so focused on recent novel events as some of the pre-publicity made it sound. |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2006 : 04:31:59
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| Will there be anything about Shattershree featured in Ed's Dragon article? I do not remember which issue, but he/she seemed like a nice plothook to use for PCs... |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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EytanBernstein
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
704 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2006 : 07:05:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
Will there be anything about Shattershree featured in Ed's Dragon article? I do not remember which issue, but he/she seemed like a nice plothook to use for PCs...
I'm not familiar with that particular article. If there is material referring to it, I didn't write it. |
http://eytanbernstein.com - the official website of Eytan Bernstein |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2006 : 07:08:47
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How many pages (Roughly) was the Unther/Threskel section of DoF?
Who wrote it and how much Banite "Goodness" is in it? |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2006 : 16:28:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
Will there be anything about Shattershree featured in Ed's Dragon article? I do not remember which issue, but he/she seemed like a nice plothook to use for PCs...
I don't believe so, due to lack of room.
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2006 : 16:29:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
How many pages (Roughly) was the Unther/Threskel section of DoF?
Who wrote it and how much Banite "Goodness" is in it?
There is a fair amount of info on Unther and Threskel.
Co-written.
Church of Bane plays a role from Mourktar.
Remember, this is a dragon-focused and dragon-organization focused project.
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2006 : 03:21:49
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quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
There is a fair amount of info on Unther and Threskel.
Co-written.
Church of Bane plays a role from Mourktar.
Remember, this is a dragon-focused and dragon-organization focused project.
--Eric
Is the Unther/Threskel chapter in DoF of a samilar size to the Border Kingdoms chapter in Powers of Faerun? |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2006 : 03:48:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Is the Unther/Threskel chapter in DoF of a samilar size to the Border Kingdoms chapter in Powers of Faerun?
You'll have to wait and see. I can't think of an answer that's not misleading in some way or the other.
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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EytanBernstein
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
704 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2006 : 10:10:14
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quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Is the Unther/Threskel chapter in DoF of a samilar size to the Border Kingdoms chapter in Powers of Faerun?
You'll have to wait and see. I can't think of an answer that's not misleading in some way or the other.
--Eric
The only thing I can add is that the general contents of the chapter is fairly well described in the table of contents shown in the July previews. |
http://eytanbernstein.com - the official website of Eytan Bernstein |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2006 : 15:14:20
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A couple of questions:
1) There will be something about gem dragons?
2) There will be something psionic focused? (Yes, sometimes I´m an eeeevil DM  )
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Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2006 : 19:09:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Moradin
A couple of questions:
1) There will be something about gem dragons?
2) There will be something psionic focused? (Yes, sometimes I´m an eeeevil DM )
A little bit, in answer to both questions.
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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Dragons of Faerun
