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Beirnadri Magranth
Senior Scribe
USA
720 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Feb 2006 : 16:00:54
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I'm in the beginning parts of a series of campaigns with people set in FR. I want most of the campaigns to feature mostly characters who are arcane casters.
I was exploring the theme of the danger of magic and I explored how magic is dangerous:
Magic has not been used responsibly. It has created vast swaths of wastelands and deadly marshes across faerun. These magics may have been worked millenia ago but they persist to full effect today! Magic is therefore unsustainable and magic-users are destroying faerun faster than we can build it or faster than our magic expires.
Locations of destruction by magic include:
The Calim Desert
Rethild
The High Moor
Anauroch
The Great Rift
The Marsh of Tun
The Farsea Marshes
The Dire Wood
The Fallen Lands
The Plains of Purple Dust
The Swamp of Akhlaur
Thar
The Marsh of Chelimbyr
Qurth Forest.
Check the maps and see just how expansive these wastes are (and some of them are expanding).
I was thinking that at the climax of the campaign the characters would realize this and either 1 disavow magic or use it to correct the problems of the past. Maybe the characters are involved in some magical catastrophe and have the option to swap out their class levels for fighter lvls or some non arcane based classes. maybe some characters die and return as bizarre undead or Risen Martyr's
Or- I could have this thoery on magic explained to the pcs by some mentor like npc.(the theory that the way it is and has been used is harmful to FAerun). This way the characters could focus their campaign on righting the wrongs of incorrect magic use of the past etc. Also this would allow characters to abandon magic early and take classes like occult slayer or mage killer.
in either case I want to haeva really strong argument.
Can any other sages come up with other ways that magic is not being correctly used in faerun etc. keeping with the theme of magic as an enemy or corrupting force.
or if sages know of more locations where magic had a major role in creating destruction corruption or waste... please post them here.
p.s. i want my characters not be against mystra but in a sense in accordance to her dogma. i am trying to get pc's to use non offensive spells to accomplish things or use magic in creative ways.
Edit: idk u tell me what a "wamp" is!  
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"You came here to be a martyr in a great big bang of glory... instead you will die with a whimper."
::moussaoui tries to interrupt::
"You will never get a chance to speak again and that's an appropriate ending."
-Judge Brinkema |
Edited by - Beirnadri Magranth on 13 Feb 2006 02:31:24
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2006 : 16:47:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Beirnadri Magranth
The Wamp of Akhlaur
What is a Wamp?
While there is a lot of damage that has been done by magic (particularly High Magic, which includes the Sundering), a lot of good has resulted from magic, too. Maybe not on the huge scale of many of the things you've listed, but there have been positive uses of magic.
Mystra opposes the reckless use of magic -- and that's exactly what you've got listed here. Magic can be used for good or for evil, and the problems arise from the latter option. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2006 : 17:15:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Beirnadri Magranth
Magic has not been used responsibly.
You don't consider the creation of the mythallars for the floating enclaves of Netheril to be a responsible use of magic? What about elven mythals?
There may be an irresponsible use of magic in the Realms -- but that is the fault of the caster... rather than magic itself. Magic, by itself, is not dangerous... it is how it is utilised and applied to the everyday lives of people and places in the Realms that either makes it beneficial or dangerous. Don't discount the responsibility (or lack thereof) of the "wielder" element in the examples you list above... |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2006 : 23:48:37
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| Kinda like nuclear engery . . . atoms are part of everything (like the Weave in FR), splitting an atom can produce tremendous energy, nuclear power can save on tons of fossil fuels, but if used poorly can produce a lot of toxic waste, and a meltdown or a nuclear weapon can cause insane amounts of damage. |
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Beirnadri Magranth
Senior Scribe
USA
720 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2006 : 02:42:53
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Kinda like nuclear engery . . . atoms are part of everything (like the Weave in FR), splitting an atom can produce tremendous energy, nuclear power can save on tons of fossil fuels, but if used poorly can produce a lot of toxic waste, and a meltdown or a nuclear weapon can cause insane amounts of damage.
EXACTLY! I do agree with all three of yuhs! On one hand I think that magic is too dangerous for mortals to use responsibly. One the otherhand if it was possible to limit reckless wielders then the good aspects would outway the bad.
this sorta gives my campaign two focuses...
1- to abhor mystra and the curse of magic
2- to try toeliminate reckless wielders
or maybe a third:
3- to try and reate beneficial uses for magic and restore past magical disasters
I think I will the leave the paths open for my players to choose but I want to present the information that reckless magic use is disastrous.
Sages, are there more examples to use?
How do you think the characters should be informed of this?
witnessing ruins & self realization?
an old powerful mentor figure?
?
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"You came here to be a martyr in a great big bang of glory... instead you will die with a whimper."
::moussaoui tries to interrupt::
"You will never get a chance to speak again and that's an appropriate ending."
-Judge Brinkema |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2006 : 03:39:01
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| Do you have Lost Empires of Faerun? I have grown to really like the Cultists of the Shattered Peak as an organization. They basically distrust arcane magic users, and keep close tabs on them, making sure they don't do anything major with magic, and trying to make sure no one gets or uses Netherese items or tries to ressurect anything resembling Netheril. |
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Beirnadri Magranth
Senior Scribe
USA
720 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2006 : 15:04:01
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| where are they described in LEoF? theres no index so I couldnt look for their organization name. I looked in netheril history (sorta skimmed) but didnt see them there. Ive heard about them before but i never really paid any attention to them. |
"You came here to be a martyr in a great big bang of glory... instead you will die with a whimper."
::moussaoui tries to interrupt::
"You will never get a chance to speak again and that's an appropriate ending."
-Judge Brinkema |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2006 : 15:06:52
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| Try the Table of Contents. |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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Beirnadri Magranth
Senior Scribe
USA
720 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2006 : 17:48:44
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oh teehee i was very sleepy last night. three nights in a row of working an hour after closing !
excellent I love classes like that!
Has anyone ever played in groups like the Eldrath Veluna, The Olin Gisir or the Cultists of the Shattered Peaks? |
"You came here to be a martyr in a great big bang of glory... instead you will die with a whimper."
::moussaoui tries to interrupt::
"You will never get a chance to speak again and that's an appropriate ending."
-Judge Brinkema |
Edited by - Beirnadri Magranth on 13 Feb 2006 18:57:58 |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2006 : 13:20:24
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This topic is of interest to me as someone who is studying the lore of Amn and trying to plan a campaign there.
The people of Amn have a tremendous fear and distrust arcane magic users. Wizards who practice openly face social ostracization and even outright persecution. The land has a long history of evil rogue wizards unleashing powerful summons and plagues in the course of their experiments and intrigues. And since Amnians rely on an oral history and have almost no written historical records, negative stereotypes are presumably easily reinforced as families educate their children about wizards.
Empires of the Sands states that Amn has "laws against magic," but doesn't specify what those laws are. Empires of the Sands and Lands of Intrigue, both, suggest that certain magic items are illegal contraband. Empires of the Sands informs us that arcane magic practicioners of level 5 and above must register with the government and choose to either perform compulsory government service, exile, or death.
So it would seem that practice of magic is within the law at levels 1-4, and above level 5 "registered" mages (or sorcerers) may do their thing under the government's supervision. Yet in both Empires of the Sands and Lands of Intrigue practice of arcane magic is depicted as an underground activity. And the Cowled Wizards, a very prosocial organization of wizards devoted to teaching and maintaining the Art, has been outlawed by the government and has moved underground.
So it's a bit confusing about how the practice of magic actually works in Amn. But Amn is certainly a culture that embraces the notion that magic is too powerful for mere mortals to be playing around with. This predominantly human culture is dominated by selfish, greedy, materialistic, and otherwise superficial values which are almost devoid of Good-aligned principles and ideals. So there is arguably some wisdom to their effort to try to curb the use of magic there. |
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nbnmare
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
205 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2006 : 14:23:27
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Well met Lemeris!
I'm also currently studying the Lands of Intrigue and the immediate vicinity, and I've noticed that Amn's feelings towards magic also exist in Tethyr, though to a somewhat lesser extent. A post by Steven Schend on these forums revealed that peasants even destroyed a temple of Mystra in County Spellshire during that country's Interregnum.
In official lore, Mystra is without any temples in the entire region, though Azuth has one over in Erlkazar. Missionaries from this temple could certainly be active in trying to alter the general perception of arcane magic in Amn. In fact, they could perhaps be members of the Azuthan sect which belives sorcerer is a perversion of magic (I forget the name), and so be preaching tolerance of wizardary whilst also encouraging fear of sorcery.
Growing legends and rumours of the relatively new Monks of the Dark Moon, an order of Shadow Weave-using sorcerer/monks originally based in Purskul, certainly won't do the reputation of arcane magic much good in the area.
In my own project, I've introduced a "Royal Academy of Wizards" (the tutors mainly being LG or LN) in the Tethyrian capital of Darromar, who may also help to change the opinion of the average LoI citizen re: wizardry... though whether for the better or for the worse, I haven't decided yet :). |
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Magus
Acolyte
Japan
3 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2006 : 11:10:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Beirnadri Magranth
EXACTLY! I think that magic is too dangerous for mortals to use responsibly.
And you think that the gods can use it responsibly? Also just because magic is used for good does not mean it is used resposibly, if I use a storm of Vangence Spell over a town that has been enslaved by an evil wizard, simply to destroy him is it s good act or not? My intention was to destroy evil doesn't that make me good? there is a good reason that Mystra has made sure that her chosen don't begin blasting every evil wizard they see.
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"Now they Shall be destroyed by the very flame they sought to control!"
Archimonde |
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StromLancer
Acolyte
41 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2006 : 10:44:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Magus
quote:
Originally posted by Beirnadri Magranth
EXACTLY! I think that magic is too dangerous for mortals to use responsibly.
And you think that the gods can use it responsibly? Also just because magic is used for good does not mean it is used resposibly, if I use a storm of Vangence Spell over a town that has been enslaved by an evil wizard, simply to destroy him is it s good act or not? My intention was to destroy evil doesn't that make me good? there is a good reason that Mystra has made sure that her chosen don't begin blasting every evil wizard they see.
Yup, yup, I agree that neither mortals nor even the Faerunian gods-not even Mystra, can wield magic responsibly. Mortals due to short lifespan are driven to attain the highest peak in magic and suffer not others taking it from them. Similarly, the Faerunian gods do suffer from these greed, even Mystra herself! Of course, with magic supreme and unbridled, anybody could had toppled Ao himself. Magic is a force for many things and essential for life to keep going, and of course, when magic is applied in whatever matters or situations, there would be consequences. Would casting the Killing Storm Spell over half a continent infested with demons and undead be called "irresponsible" because half the continent would be blasted away. But to me, we must understand why these resulted in the first place that later would be called "irresponsibility of the wielder using magic", for I am 100% certain no mage want to destroy the land or anyting and neither are there 100% environmentally friendly spells. It is through decision, environment and most of all circumstances that drove mages to cast destructive spells in the first place. We can't always blame mages as irresponsible for using magic but we should seek to understand why they do that in the first place. |
Lead the war fate commands you to!
...but are you fighting the true enemy? |
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Beirnadri Magranth
Senior Scribe
USA
720 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2006 : 16:49:30
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| actually in most of the examples i listed especially the akhlaur swamp, anauroch, the high moor etc. it is specifically stated that mages created them in irresponsible ways... anauroch turned into desert by phaerim spells specifically targeting agriculture in netheril. the netherese flooded the underdark to get the phaerimm. aryvandaar destroyed miyeratar by blasting it with vile spells creating teh high moor. akhlaur swamp is froma leaking portal! so it is pretty evident in at least the most famous cases of the high moors and anauroch that the intent was to destroy the land in order to kill one culture off. so i mean in a way mages must make the choices you state, stormlancer, but they of course must be held accountable. |
"You came here to be a martyr in a great big bang of glory... instead you will die with a whimper."
::moussaoui tries to interrupt::
"You will never get a chance to speak again and that's an appropriate ending."
-Judge Brinkema |
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StromLancer
Acolyte
41 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2006 : 01:56:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Beirnadri Magranth
actually in most of the examples i listed especially the akhlaur swamp, anauroch, the high moor etc. it is specifically stated that mages created them in irresponsible ways... anauroch turned into desert by phaerim spells specifically targeting agriculture in netheril. the netherese flooded the underdark to get the phaerimm. aryvandaar destroyed miyeratar by blasting it with vile spells creating teh high moor. akhlaur swamp is froma leaking portal! so it is pretty evident in at least the most famous cases of the high moors and anauroch that the intent was to destroy the land in order to kill one culture off. so i mean in a way mages must make the choices you state, stormlancer, but they of course must be held accountable.
Aklaur swamp was a fluke, an unexpected and unplanned accident that resulted from the clash of magics during a duel between two best friends. Neither side are responsible for this unplanned and unexpected accident as who except the gods can foretell this coming?
The High Moor? In wartimes, desperation can drive every soldier and mage to use whatever means it takes to destroy the foe and end the war quickly, for I and some of my fellows had been in service in warfronts before, I know this kind of feeling and seen how situations and environments can change that righteous and kind thinking in a green soldier. Who can blame if one is tired and sick of the war that one is desperate to end the war quickly with any means available.
Similarly, the Netherse Versus the Phaerimm wars, this is all about war and in war, who can blame who for this or that if it is of strategic importance and the best mean to kill the foe without risking your and your comrades lives? I for one who had seen friends die in my arms would favor strategies that would kill the enemy without putting our own lives on the line where we know that we won't be coming back to see our families, Many had gone without a chance to see their families for the last time. The phaerimm are eager to kill the Netherese in whatever way possible so as to get what they want, for they know that lengthy wars benefit not even them, similarly the Netherese are caught unprepared and with no information on this phaerimm, who can blame them? For in their desperation and with the strong desire to survive where their magics are not enough against the phaerimm, the most logical way is to use the best, neccessarily disgusting means to beat and destroy the enemy and that is flood the phaerimm caves with water and drown them, in war, there is no right or wrong action. If one wants to hold somebody responsible for some action, think what led to this action for no one want to take up this kind of decision in the first place. |
Lead the war fate commands you to!
...but are you fighting the true enemy? |
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Beirnadri Magranth
Senior Scribe
USA
720 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2006 : 02:56:51
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hmm this brings up whether the ends justify the means which in this case i think it doesnt
therefore i think its irresponsible |
"You came here to be a martyr in a great big bang of glory... instead you will die with a whimper."
::moussaoui tries to interrupt::
"You will never get a chance to speak again and that's an appropriate ending."
-Judge Brinkema |
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StromLancer
Acolyte
41 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2006 : 09:57:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Beirnadri Magranth
hmm this brings up whether the ends justify the means which in this case i think it doesnt
therefore i think its irresponsible
 (chuckles) Well, one day you will understand the wisdom after a trial by fire. |
Lead the war fate commands you to!
...but are you fighting the true enemy? |
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nbnmare
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
205 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2006 : 12:03:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Beirnadri Magranth
hmm this brings up whether the ends justify the means which in this case i think it doesnt
therefore i think its irresponsible
An action is only irresponsible if the person making it hasn't considered whether the ends justify the means. If the decision has had plenty of thought applied to it, another person thinking that the ends don't justify the means doesn't make the action irresponsible. |
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Magus
Acolyte
Japan
3 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2006 : 15:41:45
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quote:
Of course, with magic supreme and unbridled, anybody could had toppled Ao himself.
There I would have to disagree, Ao has already shown that he is more than able to handle the Gods of Faerun with no trouble. I'm not even sure if they can hurt him without damaging themselves.
On the subject of Magic many of the Flukes you have listed are valid points however each time they are formes they leave a latinf reminder on the responsible use of magic, this is part of the reason that Mystra alows them to continue. |
"Now they Shall be destroyed by the very flame they sought to control!"
Archimonde |
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Beirnadri Magranth
Senior Scribe
USA
720 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2006 : 16:13:18
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quote:
Originally posted by StromLancer
(chuckles) Well, one day you will understand the wisdom after a trial by fire.
eek! |
"You came here to be a martyr in a great big bang of glory... instead you will die with a whimper."
::moussaoui tries to interrupt::
"You will never get a chance to speak again and that's an appropriate ending."
-Judge Brinkema |
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TymoraChosen
Seeker
67 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2006 : 02:20:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Magus
quote:
Of course, with magic supreme and unbridled, anybody could had toppled Ao himself.
There I would have to disagree, Ao has already shown that he is more than able to handle the Gods of Faerun with no trouble. I'm not even sure if they can hurt him without damaging themselves.
I don't think so, for it was mentioned that Mystra had to "deposit" a certain percentage of her powers in mortals under orders from Lord Ao and some decision by herself, and that Lord Ao also applied "special" laws onto Mystra, laws more special than the laws laid onto the other gods. The obvious reason for Lord Ao doing this would be "to maintain the balance" but also there is a hidden reason behind it, Ao wants ensure no one strong enough to topple him. Because with extreme magical power all under her sole control, Mystra could had challenged Lord Ao on equal terms and would had gained divine rank of >25 and that makes her above all her fellows. |
May tymora's blessings be heaped on all |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2006 : 05:17:26
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quote:
Originally posted by TymoraChosen
I don't think so, for it was mentioned that Mystra had to "deposit" a certain percentage of her powers in mortals under orders from Lord Ao and some decision by herself, and that Lord Ao also applied "special" laws onto Mystra, laws more special than the laws laid onto the other gods. The obvious reason for Lord Ao doing this would be "to maintain the balance" but also there is a hidden reason behind it, Ao wants ensure no one strong enough to topple him. Because with extreme magical power all under her sole control, Mystra could had challenged Lord Ao on equal terms and would had gained divine rank of >25 and that makes her above all her fellows.
There's a slight problem with your scenario: Ed created the Chosen of Mystra. He did not create Ao. Ed has said in his thread that the Chosen of Mystra predate TSR buying the Realms. Ao was invented for the Time of Troubles as a grand plot device.
Mystra investing some of her essence in her Chosen serves multiple purposes. It gives her hands on the ground to advance her cause. It protects the Weave in the event something happens to Mystra (as has happened before). And it acts as a stabilizing influence on Mystra.
Ao is another class of god entirely. He is to the "regular" gods what they are to ants. Do you really think someone that can simultaneously cast down evert single deity in the Realms has to worry about a single one of them getting too powerful? He tossed out entire pantheons -- if entire groups of gods can be easily swept away, then one individual is hardly going to pose any concern or threat. |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2006 : 07:52:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by TymoraChosen
I don't think so, for it was mentioned that Mystra had to "deposit" a certain percentage of her powers in mortals under orders from Lord Ao and some decision by herself, and that Lord Ao also applied "special" laws onto Mystra, laws more special than the laws laid onto the other gods. The obvious reason for Lord Ao doing this would be "to maintain the balance" but also there is a hidden reason behind it, Ao wants ensure no one strong enough to topple him. Because with extreme magical power all under her sole control, Mystra could had challenged Lord Ao on equal terms and would had gained divine rank of >25 and that makes her above all her fellows.
There's a slight problem with your scenario: Ed created the Chosen of Mystra. He did not create Ao. Ed has said in his thread that the Chosen of Mystra predate TSR buying the Realms. Ao was invented for the Time of Troubles as a grand plot device.
Mystra investing some of her essence in her Chosen serves multiple purposes. It gives her hands on the ground to advance her cause. It protects the Weave in the event something happens to Mystra (as has happened before). And it acts as a stabilizing influence on Mystra.
Ao is another class of god entirely. He is to the "regular" gods what they are to ants. Do you really think someone that can simultaneously cast down evert single deity in the Realms has to worry about a single one of them getting too powerful? He tossed out entire pantheons -- if entire groups of gods can be easily swept away, then one individual is hardly going to pose any concern or threat.
oooh oooh oooh, teacher Wooly (as Scererar raises his hand in the back of the classroom) Check out page 341 in Waterdeep novel(the old waterdeep novel, for the avatar trilogy) When a luminous presence greeted AO, enveloping his energies with his own. It was both a warm and a cold entity. Forgiving and harsh. "And how does your cosmos fare, Ao?" The voice was at once both gentle and admonishing. "they have restored the balance, master. The realms are once again secure".
This was very cool to me then and now as I remembered it. It leads to an even greater realms than the one we all share.  Sounds kind of starwars ish too |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2006 : 07:56:26
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| I dunno, to me it felt like the author winking to his readers. And as I'm not a great fan of the breaking down of the 4th wall in non-humorous novels/plays/movies I felt it rather detracted from an already tedious text. |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2006 : 12:17:48
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quote:
Originally posted by scererar
oooh oooh oooh, teacher Wooly (as Scererar raises his hand in the back of the classroom) Check out page 341 in Waterdeep novel(the old waterdeep novel, for the avatar trilogy) When a luminous presence greeted AO, enveloping his energies with his own. It was both a warm and a cold entity. Forgiving and harsh. "And how does your cosmos fare, Ao?" The voice was at once both gentle and admonishing. "they have restored the balance, master. The realms are once again secure".
This was very cool to me then and now as I remembered it. It leads to an even greater realms than the one we all share. Sounds kind of starwars ish too
I'm aware of this text, but I don't really see what bearing it has on the current discussion... |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2006 : 16:39:24
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| I was alluding( or at least trying to ) to the fact that while the gods of faerun are powerful, Ao is a whole other class of god entirely, which leads one to wonder what else. Then HIS master shows up to say hey what's going on here? |
Edited by - scererar on 29 Mar 2006 16:44:58 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2006 : 18:15:56
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quote:
Originally posted by scererar
I was alluding( or at least trying to ) to the fact that while the gods of faerun are powerful, Ao is a whole other class of god entirely, which leads one to wonder what else. Then HIS master shows up to say hey what's going on here?
Ah, okay. I didn't understand the point you were trying to make. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2006 : 23:43:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by scererar
I was alluding( or at least trying to ) to the fact that while the gods of faerun are powerful, Ao is a whole other class of god entirely, which leads one to wonder what else. Then HIS master shows up to say hey what's going on here?
Ah, okay. I didn't understand the point you were trying to make.
Hmmm... I always thought that this mysterious entity is a DM |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Beirnadri Magranth
Senior Scribe
USA
720 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2006 : 21:07:23
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| or the dm's girlfriend (boyfriend w/e)! |
"You came here to be a martyr in a great big bang of glory... instead you will die with a whimper."
::moussaoui tries to interrupt::
"You will never get a chance to speak again and that's an appropriate ending."
-Judge Brinkema |
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Topic |
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Magic is Detrimental to FR
