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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
 Posted - 31 Jan 2006 : 04:37:50
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My player that has the cleric of Helm came up with an idea. He has been trying to get a temple built for a while, and now is on his way to doing so. But he had a thought. He wants to start an order of Helm that has to do with gathering information, somewhat like the Harpers, but dedicated to the Church of Helm. He wanted to base it out of Mistledale, since people would be less likely to think about an information clearing house in the middle of the Beast Country.
So he wants some non magical ways of spreading information and is starting to brainstorm some ideas about creating an information network. What do you guys think about such an endevor? His point in this and tying it to Helm is as part of the "planning" aspect of Helm.
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Conlon
Learned Scribe
Canada
132 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2006 : 05:01:57
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| I think it's a sound idea. If you were to liken the Church of Helm to the profession of policing, which both involve vigilance and the protection of persons/property, it would make sense to draw a "realms" parallel to the information-gathering performed by modern-day police. Instead of an undercover cop infiltrating drug-dealers' networks, you could have a preist/rogue character infiltrating one of the malevolent power groups operating in their region. Sounds like a cool way to introduce different plot hooks and keep the role-playing element fresh. Good luck! |
My hopes are ashes, my dreams are dust. All my intentions mean nothing unless they are followed by action. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2006 : 06:00:00
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| I dunno... Spying is the gathering of information; planning is using it. It's not the same thing. And while you could argue that such information would aid a guardian, I've never thought of Helm as being the pro-active type. After all, guarding is more of a defensive thing. |
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Faramicos
Senior Scribe
Denmark
468 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2006 : 08:10:56
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| My thought exactly. The everyday image of Helm and his followers is in the role of guardians. I find it a bit outside of his territory to act as an active inforcer of the law and someone who takes on the job of police. But if it fits into your campaign to bend the lore a little i see no problem in that. It sounds like a cool idea for alot of interesting gaming... |
"When dragons make war, worlds can only tremble in the shadow of angry wings" |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31777 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2006 : 13:51:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I dunno... Spying is the gathering of information; planning is using it. It's not the same thing. And while you could argue that such information would aid a guardian, I've never thought of Helm as being the pro-active type. After all, guarding is more of a defensive thing.
Then again... part of Helm's dogma is to anticipate what attacks may come where and when -- such knowledge is derived from the study of information and intelligence -- and then to develop a practical plan in which to counter the potential threat before it becomes a danger. An order dedicated to the gathering of information and intelligence would be crucial for this.
As it is, I could see an order of Helmite "planners" who are attached to a particular affiliated order of the church -- say, the Companions of the One True Vision or the paladins of the Vigilant Eyes of the God -- employing their unique skills to direct the actions of these Helmite military orders. Following the guidance of the Helmite planners... these orders work to eliminate the threat and thus uphold Helm's notion of guardianship and protection.
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Edited by - The Sage on 31 Jan 2006 13:52:55 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2006 : 17:23:33
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I dunno... Spying is the gathering of information; planning is using it. It's not the same thing. And while you could argue that such information would aid a guardian, I've never thought of Helm as being the pro-active type. After all, guarding is more of a defensive thing.
Then again... part of Helm's dogma is to anticipate what attacks may come where and when -- such knowledge is derived from the study of information and intelligence -- and then to develop a practical plan in which to counter the potential threat before it becomes a danger. An order dedicated to the gathering of information and intelligence would be crucial for this.
As it is, I could see an order of Helmite "planners" who are attached to a particular affiliated order of the church -- say, the Companions of the One True Vision or the paladins of the Vigilant Eyes of the God -- employing their unique skills to direct the actions of these Helmite military orders. Following the guidance of the Helmite planners... these orders work to eliminate the threat and thus uphold Helm's notion of guardianship and protection.
I don't know... Reading his dogma in Faiths & Avatars, I do see the bit about anticipating attacks... But I see nothing to indicate it's anything other than reactive. "Okay, I'm a guard, and that's a good ambush site. I'll be prepared for someone to attack me from there." He seems more of a tactical sort, not a strategic sort. I just don't see him (or his followers) being proactive, and seeking out intelligence.
Being a guardian is more about waiting for threats to happen, and then countering them. Seeking out threats and neutralizing them before they happen seems to be more suited to more aggressive deities. At least, that's my opinion. |
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Conlon
Learned Scribe
Canada
132 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2006 : 17:28:23
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As listed in the dogma of Helm: "Anticipate attacks and be ready. Know your foes." I would think that truly knowing your foes would demand some sort of relationship with them, perhaps gaining their trust, spending time with them, observing them and their relationships with others. Hey - it's just my way of looking at it though, if someone doesn't think that Helm's church should be that proactive in their campaign, beautiful! If the player in KnightErrant Jr's campaign is leaning this way and his character wants to break new ground in Helm's church, I think it is still a sound idea. Maybe it won't work out the way he wants. Maybe the character will find himself in some moral quandary or sympathizing with those he is studying? To me, if a character is making some cool changes to the way the Realms works for him and his party and he is really excited and sinking his teeth into it, then let him have at it. Within reason, of course, but I think that this sounds reasonable.
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My hopes are ashes, my dreams are dust. All my intentions mean nothing unless they are followed by action. |
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Conlon
Learned Scribe
Canada
132 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2006 : 17:34:14
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| Also, I could totally envision characters who believe in the importance of Helm's precepts, but not necessarily being the "in your face" type. I think that a Divine Seeker of Helm with lots of ranks in bluff, gather information, intimidate, diplomacy, etc, could be a really cool NPC to bring in for this type of thing. If your player's character isn't suited to the subterfuge and spying, etc, then perhaps he could direct this NPC, who would in turn provide some cool plot hooks, etc. Forewarned is forearmed - isn't that the saying? |
My hopes are ashes, my dreams are dust. All my intentions mean nothing unless they are followed by action. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2006 : 19:54:18
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Yes, the thought is that the information network will identify problems so as to allow the church to act more efficiently. In other words, if the network finds out from an informant in a merchant caravan, for example, that barbarians are massing to attack a city, then the church can warn the rulers, help plan defenses, and get other Helmites nearby involved in the defence. However, the idea would not be to send agents among the barbarians to disuade the attack, or to manipulate other tribes to break away or attack them, etc.
The idea would be to spy to plan and allow them to "dig in" better, or to shift resources where they are needed, rather than to use subterfuge to alter the situation, for example. As Meriden (the cleric) would say, "that something for the Harpers to worry about."
And part of this idea is indeed to help restore the reputation of Helm in the heartlands as well. If the Helmites in your city are constantly warning you accurately about impending threats, and that Helmite pilgrims show up to aid in the defence, that you will eventually consider them indespensible to the well being of the city.
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2006 : 22:26:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't know... Reading his dogma in Faiths & Avatars, I do see the bit about anticipating attacks... But I see nothing to indicate it's anything other than reactive. "Okay, I'm a guard, and that's a good ambush site. I'll be prepared for someone to attack me from there." He seems more of a tactical sort, not a strategic sort. I just don't see him (or his followers) being proactive, and seeking out intelligence.
Being a guardian is more about waiting for threats to happen, and then countering them. Seeking out threats and neutralizing them before they happen seems to be more suited to more aggressive deities. At least, that's my opinion.
I think there were more aggressive/proactive members of the Helmite faith (Bulwarks, or something like that?) mentioned in the 'Warriors and Priests of the Realms'? |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31777 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2006 : 00:24:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly RupertBeing a guardian is more about waiting for threats to happen, and then countering them. Seeking out threats and neutralizing them before they happen seems to be more suited to more aggressive deities. At least, that's my opinion.
It could really go either way... as Helmites could still justify that actively combating threats before they occur holds true to the values of guardianship and protection that are integral parts of the Helmite faith. I suppose it depends upnn just how far you're willing to let the church go in your own campaigns with regard to this type of action. Then again, perhaps this is something limited to one clergy only... a small sect of Helmite worships who choose to interprete the faith of their god in a more "pro-active" focus.
If that's the case here for KEJR's group... and I use a CBT analogy to get me by... I see them more as something akin to the Warden Clans -- actively protecting a realm and acting as its guardians against any external threat. So, they really wouldn't be anything like the Crusader Clans -- who would see it as their duty to invade another region completely and eliminate a threat.
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Conlon
Learned Scribe
Canada
132 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2006 : 02:55:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't know... Reading his dogma in Faiths & Avatars, I do see the bit about anticipating attacks... But I see nothing to indicate it's anything other than reactive. "Okay, I'm a guard, and that's a good ambush site. I'll be prepared for someone to attack me from there." He seems more of a tactical sort, not a strategic sort. I just don't see him (or his followers) being proactive, and seeking out intelligence.
Being a guardian is more about waiting for threats to happen, and then countering them. Seeking out threats and neutralizing them before they happen seems to be more suited to more aggressive deities. At least, that's my opinion.
It does make sense. However, I think that eventually, an entire faith/clergy dedicated to the protection of life or property would eventually realize that just having their sword sharpened may not be enough preparation for all occasions. This would become more apparent when charged with the protection objects or persons of extreme importance. I don't have the FRCS in front of me, but I believe that I read something to the effect of Helmites not trusting guardianship to anyone else. To me, that says that they are probably perfectionists and possibly slightly arrogant, and would not put it past others to screw up information gathering also. This is where their information-gathering specialist would come in.
As I wrote earlier, I think this is a possible source of great plot hooks for KEJR's campaign. I hadn't thought about it earlier, but I like his player's idea so much, I'm going to incorporate it into my campaign also! |
My hopes are ashes, my dreams are dust. All my intentions mean nothing unless they are followed by action. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2006 : 03:42:02
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Every organization will have some kind of information gathering.
At best the question is where the line is crossed from gather information to being a spy. This depends on what you define a spy as.
If you define a spy as a person that goes to the marketplace or travern to listen to rummons, every PC and NPC is a spy from time to time.
If you define a spy as being a follower or member of an organization your org. opposes (deep cover) some oorders will not do this. Join the Assassin guild by killing an innocent, lawful good types can not do.
There of course can be intermediate levels of gathering information between the two extremes. There is scouting of known risks to count numbers and perhaps overhear plans. *The drawf sneacks close to the orc tribe, holding in check his racial desire to kill them on sight, to count them and listen to their plans*
Other ways information networks can be develpoed include repayment for good deeds.
"I cured your wife, I ask nothing of you except if you can tell me anything the goblins are doing that might be a danger to the temple" *knowing that the merchant from time to time trades with goblins.*
Information is something every leader wants and often needs, the question is how the dogma of the deity pernits information gathering. At times it becomes a judgement call. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Spy Network Order of Helm
