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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Jan 2006 : 05:45:18
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I have been mulling this one over and wanted to get some opinions about this. One of my player's (my son, portrayer extrodinare of the infamous Lythari Moun Ninefingers), wanted to know what benefit he might get if he prayed before setting out on a particular mission. That got me to thinking. I know WAY back in the day there was the chance that your god directly responded to you when hearing their name, and the same applied to demons and devils, etc.
But I was thinking more subtly. Since several of the PCs have diplomacy and bluff skills, I have started writing in parts of the adventure where, if they make a particular roll while making a check, and roll playing the situation, they might get a minor boon to aid them on the way to the adventure. For example, if they really impress the High Priest at Helm's Shieldhall (a good trick now since its gone, but I digress), he might give them an extra minor magic item to take on their quest, and if they are REALLY good at explaining what they did on their mission, they might get to keep it.
My thought now is, what if I wrote in something, likely just once per adventure or session, that if they do pray, I could roll and see if their god would give them a minor boon. Not something they might even directly connect to their god at first. They might have someone waiting for them in the next town that just happens to give them a really good price on something he found, or they might talk to a pilgrim on the road that gives them some details on the supposed guardian of a lost shrine, etc, that they wouldn't have had if they hadn't thought to pray.
I was thinking, rather than just make this automatic, to make this a skill check, using Knowlage (religion) as a relevant skill, or perhaps allowing Knowlage (nature) to serve as a substitute for those worshipping a nature oriented deity. The way I track alignment is to use the point system outlined in Green Ronin's Advanced Player's Manual, and the points work out roughly to an ability score, and thus can provide a bonus score, which in this case I would also apply if the character's relevant alignment portion was high enough for a bonus (for example, the cleric of helm would get his lawful bonus, but not his good bonus). Depending on how high the check, there might be a minor boon, a mid level boon, and a big boon, though still nothing too obvious or adventure busting.
What do you all think? Does it sound workable. I already whip up brief charts for what diplomacy, bluff, and gather information will net them if used in general, so I could likely come up with something for this as well.
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2006 : 10:07:59
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Wasn't the old 2E rule something like a 1% or 2% chance? I use this percentage in my 3E game, btw.
From a DM's perspective, my only concern would be that the player's net result on checks not be so high as to grant a constant number of successes.
That is, if it's divine intervention (even minor/minimal) it ought to be rare. But I guess it really depends on how you the DM and your players feel about it.
I do like the idea of encouraging skill use.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2006 : 14:30:48
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| There was an article I read about something similar... I think it was in Dragon, but I'll be dipped if I can remember the name of it. It talked about donations and the deity's reaction to them... |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2006 : 14:33:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There was an article I read about something similar... I think it was in Dragon, but I'll be dipped if I can remember the name of it. It talked about donations and the deity's reaction to them...
There's on on SKR's website-maybe that's what you're thinking of? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2006 : 17:07:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There was an article I read about something similar... I think it was in Dragon, but I'll be dipped if I can remember the name of it. It talked about donations and the deity's reaction to them...
There's on on SKR's website-maybe that's what you're thinking of?
I don't know... I couldn't find it, just now. Have you a link to it? |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2006 : 17:31:50
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In this case, I wouldn't assume that, say, Corellon was constantly checking in on the lythari and giving him direct help, but rather that between the natural connection with being in tune with your deity and all of the servants etc. that someone along the lines makes sure that everything is lined up right for you to find this or be warned of that. And the intervention wouldn't exactly look like what most people would assume was divine intervention (i.e. an arrow from the sky destroying the beholder that you are facing when you say your prayer).
And saying simple things, like, "Thank Corellon we made it through that!" or even the cleric and the druid doing their normal morning prayers wouldn't count for this, but someone saying, "This is big, before we enter the cave, I am going to ask for Corellon's guidance," would be the sort of thing that triggers this. Even then, I would make the response far enough away from the event that it wouldn't necissarily look like a cause/effect thing.
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2006 : 17:33:45
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| Wooly might be thinking of the info that is in the 1e DMG about donations and the chance of getting contact by the deities themselves, etc. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2006 : 18:27:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Wooly might be thinking of the info that is in the 1e DMG about donations and the chance of getting contact by the deities themselves, etc.
Nope. This was far more recent. It was a chart of monetary donations, and how likely it would be that a donation of X g.p. would get you some one-time boon from the deity. |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2006 : 19:12:23
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I have always thought of priests/ clerics/ etc. as praying to receive the needed spell that the character is casting. instead of saying I'm am going to cast a bless spell. the character prays to his god asking for his/ her divine favor in blessing the party's next few actions or whatever. In battle, the priest would ask his god to mend a wounded ally or aid in smiting that difficult foe.
anyways, my 2 cents worth, but I have had the same thought KEjr. |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2006 : 20:05:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There was an article I read about something similar... I think it was in Dragon, but I'll be dipped if I can remember the name of it. It talked about donations and the deity's reaction to them...
There's on on SKR's website-maybe that's what you're thinking of?
I don't know... I couldn't find it, just now. Have you a link to it?
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Wooly might be thinking of the info that is in the 1e DMG about donations and the chance of getting contact by the deities themselves, etc.
Nope. This was far more recent. It was a chart of monetary donations, and how likely it would be that a donation of X g.p. would get you some one-time boon from the deity.
Yep, that's SKR's system. See here. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2006 : 20:39:16
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| I think the rules -- attack bonuses, hit points, saving throws, divine spells -- already assume that priests and other religious characters regularly pray. Otherwise, we don't have hard statistics on when gods directly intervene, but: not very often (Realms gods aren't hands-on actors in the setting, despite what some would have you believe); other divine manifestations are much more usual though still rare and covered in Faiths & Avatars; and above all when it's dramatically appropriate. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2006 : 21:47:58
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The bonuses I have in mind are pretty similar to what SKR mentions in his site. Maybe a +2 circumstance bonus here, some plot information there, at most maybe a character at negatives might auto stabilize, that sort of thing. No spontaneous heal spells or angels with neon signs pointing to which door they should take or that sort of thing.
Arivia, thanks for the link. I think a while back I may have seen that, but I didn't pay it much attention until I started running a game again. |
Edited by - KnightErrantJR on 07 Jan 2006 21:48:45 |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2006 : 22:08:19
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
The bonuses I have in mind are pretty similar to what SKR mentions in his site. Maybe a +2 circumstance bonus here, some plot information there, at most maybe a character at negatives might auto stabilize, that sort of thing. No spontaneous heal spells or angels with neon signs pointing to which door they should take or that sort of thing.
Arivia, thanks for the link. I think a while back I may have seen that, but I didn't pay it much attention until I started running a game again.
You're welcome. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2006 : 22:14:06
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| I don't think that the SKR one was it... I remember an actual table, and I'm pretty certain it was in an issue of Dragon. |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2006 : 22:19:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't think that the SKR one was it... I remember an actual table, and I'm pretty certain it was in an issue of Dragon.
In that case, see the first paragraph or so of the link. That's probably what you're thinking of, but I don't have an issue number. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2006 : 00:44:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't think that the SKR one was it... I remember an actual table, and I'm pretty certain it was in an issue of Dragon.
In that case, see the first paragraph or so of the link. That's probably what you're thinking of, but I don't have an issue number.
Found it! Something in that aforementioned first paragraph made me recall that it was on the Wizards site. I checked my files, confirming it was from there. Then I had to hit Google to find it, because it's easier to find kindness in Cyric's heart than it is to find something with the search engine on the Wizards site.
Donations and Intervention |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2006 : 00:54:09
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| Wooly, thank you very much as well. The more you talked about it, the more I started to remember something along those lines as well. I even searched the Dragondex (and only found an article on divine intervention for 2e), and searched through my Green Ronin and Malhavoc books, thinking maybe it was in one of them. The longer I thought about it, the more I thought that it must have been something I read. Thanks for the help, everyone. |
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msatran
Learned Scribe
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2006 : 00:59:22
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The problem with all of this is that it punishes PC's for not having a knowledge religion skill. This makes clerics and paladins more powerful than every other class in the game. Period.
No matter how many times as a fighter, I call out to Tempus, it's not going to matter when the cleric is praying to Chauntea and has twice the check I do.
And let me tell you, if the DC is low enough where commoners can make it, there will be miracles all over the damned place.
My suggestion is that you not base it on stats at all.
Roleplay and donations to your temple should play a role, a huge one. The more money you give up to your god, the better your chance that the god will intervene on your behalf. Small sacrifices at the usual holidays are also important.
I don't have a system for reintegrating this "Divine Intergration" system into my game in 3.5, but I will soon, and I will be implementing it.
Gods respond based on your FAITH. There's no stat for it. The advantage of being a divine caster is that you can make checks for someone else.
No one else can.
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2006 : 01:11:15
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| The DC mechanic is designed to create a mix of predictability and randomness. Divine intervention shouldn't be predictable, so rolling against DCs isn't right, I would think. |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2006 : 01:41:14
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quote:
Originally posted by msatran
The problem with all of this is that it punishes PC's for not having a knowledge religion skill. This makes clerics and paladins more powerful than every other class in the game. Period.
No matter how many times as a fighter, I call out to Tempus, it's not going to matter when the cleric is praying to Chauntea and has twice the check I do.
And let me tell you, if the DC is low enough where commoners can make it, there will be miracles all over the damned place.
My suggestion is that you not base it on stats at all.
Roleplay and donations to your temple should play a role, a huge one. The more money you give up to your god, the better your chance that the god will intervene on your behalf. Small sacrifices at the usual holidays are also important.
I don't have a system for reintegrating this "Divine Intergration" system into my game in 3.5, but I will soon, and I will be implementing it.
Gods respond based on your FAITH. There's no stat for it. The advantage of being a divine caster is that you can make checks for someone else.
No one else can.
There is nothing that says your fighter, calling out to Tempus while charging the enemy, would not be heard and could not receive a certain boon for his/ her faithfulness. I don't think there is a solid answer to the question, at least not one I have seen in 3E, correct me if I am wrong guys. I do however agree with wooly and the others on their ideas. I would think that after the time of troubles a god/ goddess WOULD take a more direct role in ensuring their faithful have certain "prayers" answered. I do remember something along this topic in the 2E supplement warriors and priests of the realms, and there is a specific reference to how the gods interacted with their faithful, after the time of troubles. |
Edited by - scererar on 09 Jan 2006 01:42:49 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2006 : 02:09:03
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I would be using a modified version of the chart that Wooly graciously provided. The simplest interventions are possible to achieve with a character that does not have any ranks in Knowlage (religion) or Knowlage (nature)(since I noted that nature worshipers I would let use this stat). No, there is no faith stat, but I also noted a modifier for alignment for the numerical values given in the Advanced Player's Manual from Green Ronin, and I would think that if the players are specifically mentioning that they are asking for help, giving donations, etc., that that is indicating some degree of faith. If a character never mentions praying or donating to a church, etc. it may indeed be an indication that they aren't interested in faith.
Knowlage (religion) would indeed benefit characters that aren't clerics, so its not that its only useful for this particular check (which, as I noted, isn't something that is going to happen more than once per session anyway). I also am interested in the idea that not every member of a particular clergy is a druid, cleric, paladin, or ranger, and this idea has been mentioned in every edition. Knowlage (religion) indicates some formal religious training, and it also would provide knowlage of rituals, formal prayers, types of offerings, and holy places that are best for asking intercession. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6688 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2006 : 04:18:30
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As a DM or player, I'm not sure that I'd be comfortable with rolling on a table to see if my deity helps me out. It would 'kill the moment' as it were and make it just like any other in game action: "I take a 5-foot step and roll on the Divine Favor table. I have a Knowledge (Religion) skill rank of +12 and roll a "16"! What happens?"
My idea of divine intervention reflects the scene in Ed's "Spellfire" novel where Shandril looks on as her dwarven companion calls on his gods and all of a sudden a radiance manifests itself around his weapons. Basically, IMO it should be a story development and device (and used very judiciously), not a game mechanics device.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 09 Jan 2006 04:19:11 |
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Reefy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
892 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2006 : 15:00:38
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
As a DM or player, I'm not sure that I'd be comfortable with rolling on a table to see if my deity helps me out. It would 'kill the moment' as it were and make it just like any other in game action: "I take a 5-foot step and roll on the Divine Favor table. I have a Knowledge (Religion) skill rank of +12 and roll a "16"! What happens?"
My idea of divine intervention reflects the scene in Ed's "Spellfire" novel where Shandril looks on as her dwarven companion calls on his gods and all of a sudden a radiance manifests itself around his weapons. Basically, IMO it should be a story development and device (and used very judiciously), not a game mechanics device.
-- George Krashos
I'm with Krash, it's not something I would normally use and I would only do so as a reward for continued good roleplaying or to enhance the story. And the manifestation would usually be more along the lines of those listed in Faiths and Avatars. |
Life is either daring adventure or nothing. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2006 : 15:32:06
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quote:
Originally posted by msatran
And let me tell you, if the DC is low enough where commoners can make it, there will be miracles all over the damned place.
As I pointed out in one of my posts, the results of this check, in some cases, would be something simple like a circumstance bonus. So Joe Blacksmith that says his prayer to Gond and gets a +2 bonus and manages to make a masterwork item got a bonus, but doesn't know for sure that Gond helped him.
The main point of the thing is to give them a chance to RP their devotion to their gods and get a minor bonus for it if they don't have a class the provides immediate bonuses. Its a game mechanic, so I wouldn't argue that I would be figuring in every commoner's chance to gain divine influence either.
Thanks for the help and feedback. Obviously this idea doesn't fit with everyone's campaigns. |
Edited by - KnightErrantJR on 09 Jan 2006 15:32:40 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2006 : 15:57:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Reefy
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
As a DM or player, I'm not sure that I'd be comfortable with rolling on a table to see if my deity helps me out. It would 'kill the moment' as it were and make it just like any other in game action: "I take a 5-foot step and roll on the Divine Favor table. I have a Knowledge (Religion) skill rank of +12 and roll a "16"! What happens?"
My idea of divine intervention reflects the scene in Ed's "Spellfire" novel where Shandril looks on as her dwarven companion calls on his gods and all of a sudden a radiance manifests itself around his weapons. Basically, IMO it should be a story development and device (and used very judiciously), not a game mechanics device.
-- George Krashos
I'm with Krash, it's not something I would normally use and I would only do so as a reward for continued good roleplaying or to enhance the story. And the manifestation would usually be more along the lines of those listed in Faiths and Avatars.
Good points. The manifestations listed in those three books are a great resource for adding flavor to a campaign, and it's likely a better way to show divine attention.
I could see, however, a DM using something like the system used in the linked article, but substituting it with listed manifestions from the deity books. I'd not let the PC make the roll, or even let them know the roll was made. But if they'd done something to get a deity's attention, and were now in a situation that that deity would look over, then I'd allow a chance for the deity to throw a bone the PC's way. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2006 : 16:06:51
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Which was more along the lines of what I was thinking initially. If they had stopped by a shrine or mentioned praying for guidance or made offerings, then I would be keeping track of this. Later, if they are in deep, ahem, trouble, I would make the roll and then let them know that they had some kind of bonus, or some effect or another didn't affect them. I don't know that I would always use the listed manifestations, since part of the idea of controlling the event is to have them guessing as to why they gained this or that bonus. However, if they warrent a major intervention (which according to the suggested chart would still be an effect similar to a second level spell, at most) then a manifestation might show up, but even then, I would only do that if I WANTED the PCs to know that their god or their god's servants were directly looking at them.
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The tangible results of prayers . . .
