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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
 Posted - 31 Mar 2006 : 04:14:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Dhomal
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Officially its never been detailed (With obvious exception of Auppenser)
For my Jhaamdath article Ive created the following unofficial Jhaamdathan pantheon
Auppenser
Borem
Deneir
Lliira
Savra
Shaundakul
Valigan (Third Born)
Waukeen
With the exceptions of Liira and Borem all of the deities are children of Auppenser. Lliira is Valigans daughter
Hello-
Well - I agree with the others - that a nature deity should probably be present. :) I would also like to add that I'm surprised - but pleased to see you include Shaundakul! 
Now - the question - you said at the beginning - " For my Jhaamdath article " - WHat are you referring to exactly? I am curious mainly because I am a big fan of Shaundakul - and would welcome more information! :)
Also - you mentioned that - with 2 exceptions - the deities were all children of Auppenser - is that something you have come up with - or is that documented someplace?
Just curious mainly - Oh - and I dont know about anyone else - but I see Shaundakul's influence growing - as if I recall correctly - part of his portfolio is portals - which seem to have gotten a big 'step-up' in the more recent Realms info.
Dhomal
Only 3 months late but here goes 
When LEOF came out I decided to expand on Jhaamdath and its history for Candlekeep but its been an on again off again sort of a project
As for the Pantheon I came up with the following idea
Its mostly a Family concern (Auppenser is a bit of randy bugger and he frequently sleeped with mortals as this was also one of the 3 Ways Psionics could be spread) Some of Auppensers offspring rose to become gods.
Auppenser basicly became the Mystra of Psionics his children became deities of the Specfic schools of Psionics
Shaundakul for example was the God of the Nomads (A Psion specilaist class)
Most of the Deities where tied to Psionics but when Jhaamdath was destroyed by the elves and most of Faerun Psionists where wiped out those Jhaamdathan gods who survived had to diversify to survive so they picked up other portfolios. Over time their Psionic portfolios became less and less important due to the lack of Psionicists and most of them abondeoned the portfolios.
The idea I came up with for Psionics was that there where 3 ways that a Psioncist could come about.
1) Auppensers blessing: As mentioned above Auppenser would frequently sleep with mortals and the resulting child would have Psionic powers.
2) Be the Child of some one who had Psionicist
3) Recieve the Touch of the Psion this is the Special ability Ive given to the Initiate of Auppenser Feat thats in the Article
As of Jhaamdaths destruction 1 and 3 are no longer avaliable Auppenser hasnt been seen in around 1500 years and Clerics of Auppenser arent recieving spells and cant take the Initiate of Auppenser feat. Around 90% of the Psionic Bloodlines died out when Jhaamdath was destroyed. Worse SOMETHING has been preying on those Bloodlines that still exist this has resulted in Human Psionicists being almost unheard of in todays realms.
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Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
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Sarelle
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
508 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2006 : 14:15:29
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Borem's details come from Faiths & Pantheons -- the Mezeketh Isle map key section in "Places of Worship" and the sidebar on pg. 170.
You know, I had actually never read the deciphered script on page 169!  |
Chair of the The Rightful Return of Monster Deities to FR Society (RRMDFRS)
My character, drawn by Liodain: Sarelle / Sarelle (smaller) |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2006 : 12:36:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Aquanova
So there were no naval/naval mercantile deities, eh? Oh well. Thanks for the information, and be more than welcome to continue y'all's thought-provoking discussion.
How about Valkur? His name sounds like he could be part of the Jhaamdathan pantheon, but since I do not have my books at hand right now, I cannot confirm what has been written about him. |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2006 : 19:56:34
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Probably not Valkur. He was an ascended mortal from the Mintarn area. More of a Sea of Swords god. Whereas Jhaamdath was based around the Sea of Fallen Stars.
Valkur may have been something of a latecomer too. If he did arise before the Dawn Cataclysm merged all the human pantheons together, then I would place him in the Talfiric pantheon, worshipped around the Dale Lands and the North. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2006 : 20:09:09
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| Probably not Deneir either. Deneir's church wasn't founded until the year 25 DR, long after Jhaamdath had fallen. His faith probably did grow strong in the geographic area where Jhaamdath had once been, and was especially appealing to the Chondathans/Jhaamdathan survivors due to their long history of literacy. I think this is what Races of Faerūn was referring to. |
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bloodtide_the_red
Learned Scribe
USA
302 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2006 : 06:27:41
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My deity two coppers......
Every deity has to start somewhere. There has to be that very first fathful person. The question is where.
It's safe to say that the current Realms pantheon was fromed about 1000 DR. This gives plenty of time for the older gods like Shar to mix with the newer ones like Bane.
There are lots of Realms deitys, but first we can cut the list down a little. We want to look at the older deites, so we can rule out all the younger ones. We take out the arisen mortals of the last century or so(the ones that did not directly replace a older deity, in name). That's Cyric, Finder, Kelemvor, Siamorphe and Velsharoon.
We have theas pantheons to fill:
Talfiric(10)-Tempus-See FaP,Mielikki-she fits here, Lurue-noted as being 'of the North',Auril-it's cold here, Eldath-she is also 'of the North', Uthgar-he was a barbarian here, Umberlee-she could be of Jhaamdathan also, but is 'Goddess of the oceans' so she fits better here, Gwaeron Windstrom-is of the North,Shiallia-she is the daughter of the High Forest, Loviatar-to be someplace
Netheril(10)-Amaunator, Jannath, Jergal, Kozath, Moander, Mystryl, Selune, Shar, Targus and Tyche
Jhaamdathan(11)-Helm-he is still a major power in the Villion Reach today, Nobanion-he is the guardian of Gulthmere, Silvanus-still popular there and patron of the Emerald Enclave, Lathander-with his 'Greek' feel I place him here as it's close to the 'Greekish' Chessenta, Tyr-he arived in the Realms here, Valkur-it's still his favored area today, Garagos-his most holy place was Westgate, Malar-he fits here, Deneir- Is a bit too young of a god himself to be of the pantheon, so there must have been a deity before him as Jhaamdath was one of the first cultures to develop the written word, Talona-she has been a part of their lives from the start, Auppenser.
Coramshite(12)-Azuth-he is worshiped in Calimshan over Mystra herself and took Savras place here too,Savras, Ilmater-He fits here and joined with Tyr once he came to the Relams, Bhaelros-dead/absorbed by Talos, Sharess-gone/absorbed by Bast, Ibrandul-dead/absorbed by Shar, Anachtyr-gave his powers/title to Tyr, Waukeen-she fits here, Sune-she overshadows Selune here, Lliira-she fits and has links to Sune and Waukeen, Gond-he fits, Leira-fits here too.
There were no doubt more. Of the pantheons, only Coramshite does not have a know war god, for example. Also some deitys fit very well in more then one pantheon. Silvanus, Malar and Eldath could easly be switched between Talfiric or Jhaamdathan. Though they could also attract worshipers outside there home pantheon area.
So Tyr comes and joins the
Jhaamdathan Panheon after the fall of Jhaamdath itself, hooks up with Ilmater from the near by Coramshite pantheon(it's no so far from the Villion reach to Tethyr) and sponsers Trom to godhood
I think that some deitys were Pantheon-less. They either kept to themselfs or simply did not want to join one, until the (modern)Farenuan Pantheon was created with the Cricle of Greater Powers(we know who is in it today and the recent past, but after that it gets a little hazy. Tyche split and lost her place, but to whom? Jergal stepped down and opened two places in the circle for both Bane and Myrkul. Did someone else step down, was killed or was there just an opening Bane, Bhaal, Gargauth, Leira, Mask, Myrkul, Oghma, Shaundakul, Torm and Ulutiu all fit here.
It gets complcated the other three pantheons worshiped Chauntea, Mystra, Selune and Shar. Though the four regions are not all that far from each other. In theas four cases I don't think there were other deitys that needed to be contested with, though there could have been. The Mulhorandi pantheon has deitys of the moon,argriculture,night, and magic, for example.
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Edited by - bloodtide_the_red on 03 Apr 2006 06:47:02 |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2006 : 08:47:58
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I think I have found another Jhaamdathan god. See these threads: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=10361671#post10361671 and http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=717171
This god is named Melith and he is mentioned in the Old Empires sourcebook in the section on Chessentan religion where it says that Melith holds the portfolio of creativity in Chessenta.
Much discussion ensued on the WotC boards about who this god could possibly be.
After much consideration, I am favoring the theory that Melith is a holdover from the old Jhaamdathan pantheon. I figure Melith also has come to be known in modern times as Milil elsewhere in the Realms.
I further figure that, in addition to the portfolios of Creativity and Inspiration, and the expressive arts, Melith probably also held the portfolio of Meta-Creativity, one of the six psionic disciplines.
Based on that association, I thought it would be neat to see if I could link the other 5 psionic disciplines to other gods in the Jhaamdathi pantheon as discussed above. After all, Jhaamdath was a psionic empire, and if psionics was that important to them, then they probably had gods associated with all the six psionic disciplines, just as the Faerunian pantheon has gods associated with several of the eight schools of magic (Velsharoon = necromancy, Leira = Illusion, etc.)
Well my first thought was to assign Psychoportation to Eldath, a god of the sea and ocean trade and travel (as discussed above). I assume she was the patron goddess of Jhouram, a port city and one of the 12 Cities of the Sword. We have speculated above that she may have been the wife or consort of Auppenser and the mother of Murdane.
Okay if Auppenser is the god of Psionics in General, and Eldath (his wife) the goddess of Psychoportation, it follows that the other disciplines might have been divided up among their kids. This implies at least 5 children.
If we give Meta-Creativity to Melith, that just leaves Psychometabolism, Psychokinesis, Clairsentience and Telepathy to divide up.
If Valigan Thirdborn was their third child, we might give him Psychometabolism. This would seem to fit him as a god of Anarchy and Strife. This implies war or fighting, and Pscyhometabolism is the discipline most strongly associated with the Psychic Warrior class.
You could also make a strong case that the Psychometabolism portfolio was held by Garagos, god of War. But I am dismissing this for the moment, on the grounds that Garagos was not a god of the "mind" in any sense, and he was probably not a son of Auppenser.
Murdane (goddess of pragmatism & reason) herself I am thinking would have Clairsentience. I infer this because I figure that foresight and gathering information would be important to her.
Waukeen would probably have Telepathy. As a goddes of trade, she is a goddess of communication and of contracts--which implies a meeting of the minds. Assuming (for the sake of argument) that she is Jhaamdathi and that she is a child of Auppenser, then Telepathy seems like the best fit for her.
That just leaves Psychokinesis. Which implies a fifth child of Auppenser. Who could this be? Well possibly Garagos (unlikely) or Mask (who is unassigned to a human proto-pantheon, but who I am liking more for the ancient Rus pantheon, same as Shaundakul, if only because he has strong worship in Thesk, and he has a Loki-esque feel).
But then it hit me that a good fit might be Liira. She is the only other goddess that I have not been able to place in a human proto-pantheon. As a goddess of joy and the dance (a kinetic art) the discipline of Psychokinesis seems a decent fit with her. Also, we know she was closely associated with Waukeen, and that after the Time of Troubles when Waukeen was taken prisoner by Gra'azt, that Liira became steward of her portfolios and divine realm, even moving her realm from wherever it was (I speculate House of Knowledge) to Brighwater circa 1365 DR.
If Liira was Waukeen's sister it might explain better why Liira was chosen as steward of Waukeen's clergy.
All this evidence is circumstantial, I realize. I may just be trying to draw links and connections between facts that aren't really there. There may be other explanations, for sure. But I find myself really enamored with this theory, so I thought I would toss it out to you guys for you to discuss.
In a nutshell the theory is as follows:
Oghma interloped to Toril during the War of Light & Darkness between Selune and Shar. He acted as wise counsel to Selune and helped her recruit gods and allies from beyond the cosmos to fight against Shar's fiends, including devils, demons and yugoloth mercenaries brought over from the Great Wheel.
Oghma brought with him Silvanus, a fellow Celtic interloper, and a god of nature to help defend Chauntea and the life of Realmspace which Shar was trying to kill.
After a peace was forged by Mystryl at Cynosure, Oghma later came to love and wed (or at least consort with) Mystryl.
Together the god of Knowledge and the god of Magic bore Auppenser the god of psionics.
Auppenser would come to love Eldath, a goddess of peace and the sea worshipped around the Sea of Fallen Stars area. As a nature goddess, she would have been aligned with Silvanus, but probably represented the more civilized aspects of the sea, including travel, sailing, peaceful contact and sea-trade, as well as the psionic discipline of psychoportation.
Together they bore (at least) 5 children:
Murdane (pragmatism, reason, foresight & clairsentience)
Waukeen (trade, communication & telepathy)
Valigan Thirdborn (anarchy, rebellion, free-thinking, & psychometabolism)
Liira (joy, dance & psychokinesis)
Melith (creativity, inspiration, self-expression & meta-creativity)
Auppenser realmed in Dweomertor the plane of magic with Mystryl (as Dweomerheart was known before the Dawn Cataclsym). Murdane, Waukeen and Melith had their realms in the House of Knowledge with their grandfather Oghma. Liira could possibly have realmed there too, although I figure she moved over to Arborea or Brightwater at some point. Valigan, I surmise, realmed in Limbo, aka the Supreme Throne, as the plane was known prior to Cyric taking it over in 1369 DR. Valigan was slain by Tyr in -247 DR.
Later Murdane was slain in the DC. Melith transformed over the ages into Milil, though he still realms in the House of Knowledge. After the Time of Troubles, during Waukeen's imprisonment by Gra'azt, Waukeen's little sister Liira became steward of her clergy. Liira moved the Marketplace Eternal from the House of Knowledge over to Brightwater circa 1365 DR.
After the destruction of Jhaamdath, psionics mostly fell into disuse, which is why those gods no longer count the psionic disciplines as part of their portfolios today. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2006 : 17:30:37
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| I'm forever amazed at the intricate Realmslore connections Gray comes up with. Keep it up man! |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2006 : 18:09:45
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Two L's. Its Lliira. 
Other then that, awesome theories Gray. I had always thought of Lliira and Waukeen as lovers, but them being sisters easily explains Waukeen giving her portfolios to Lliira to hold in trust. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2006 : 22:35:03
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Here is another idea. I have always been curious as to why exactly Azuth came into conflict with Savras and ended up fighting and imprisoning him shortly after the Dawn Cataclysm.
After all, Savras seems like an okay guy, and Azuth is a decent bloke. Why did they fight? As a mortal, Azuth should not have even stood a chance against the god Savras. Presumably he was backed by the might of Mystra. So what did Savras do to tick her off?
And then it occured to me. Savras was god of divination. In the last days of Jhaamdath, I imagine his cult was moving north from Halruaa, and was growing stronger in the Cities of the Sword. If Murdane held the portfolio of the psionic discipline of Clairsentience, then Seers made up a large portion of her worshiper base. There is a chance that she even held the divination portfolio as well within the geographic sphere of Jhaamdath. Savras and Murdane were coming either into direct portfolio conflict or were vying for the hearts and minds of the same demographic.
We see that one of the hills outside of Westgate was dedicated by Jhaamdathan survivors to Savras--not to Murdane.
What if Savras was the one who slew (or caused the death of) Murdane? This would explain a lot.
Assume that Savras and Murdane found themselves on opposite sides of the God War during the Dawn Cataclysm. Savras would have had exactly the kind of foresight needed to defeat Murdane.
He might have taken advantage from the chaos engendered by the conflict to take out his rival and consolidate his worshiper base.
But consider alternatively that Savras might have done so reluctantly and with a heavy heart. If Murdane were helping Lathander, and if Savras foresaw that Lathander's plan was misguided and would end up in greater tragedy if successful, Savras might have foreseen a better result if Lathander were to fail. Unfortunately, assuming Murdane was a very capable strategist with keen insight, her counsel to Lathander might have been the very thing that might have aided thim to win his war. If Savras saw that the only way he could stop Lathander's plans was by taking out Murdane, he might have done so as the lesser of two evils.
Whatever the reason, if Murdane was indeed the grandaughter of Mystryl, then that would give Mystra strong reason to take personal offense at Savras's killing of Murdane. For this reason she may have ordered Azuth to take out Savras in retribution or simply to exact justice for Savras's crime. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2006 : 22:44:06
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As a footnote to that, it occurs to me that Mystra was later slain by Helm, Murdane's lover. Which makes me wonder if Savras could not have used his forsight to set events in motion to engineer the death of Mystra in retaliation for imprisoning him for so long.
If Savras was so motivated, and if he had a mean streak, he might have contrived the death of Murdane to embitter Helm and harden his heart, so that when the time came for him to confront Mystra he would be inclined to slay her.
Of course, if Mystra were punishing Savras for the death of Murdane, and if Savras was in part motivated to kill Murdane in order to get revenge on Mystra for imprisoning him, that is quite a complicated little time paradox, but easily the kind that can result from seeing the future so clearly.  |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
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Estelindis
Acolyte
Ireland
1 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2008 : 01:48:25
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| I've come a bit late to this topic, but I just wanted to thank Gray for that fantastic piece of lore on Eldathyn heresies. I shall have to put some of it to use in the NWN module I'm working on. Much appreciated! :) |
"Who is this arising like the dawn,
fair as the moon,
resplendent as the sun,
formidable as an army?"
~~~The Song of Songs 6:10 |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2010 : 14:16:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Here are the gods I think were probably in the Jhaamdathan pantheon:
Auppenser
Garagos
Helm
Borem
Murdane (perhaps a daughter of Auppenser)
Nobanion
Silvanus was worshipped in the Chondalwood & Vilhon Reach area, but I don't know how far back. I don't know if he was actually part of the Jhaamdathan pantheon or not, and in fact might be better associated with the North and the Talfiric pantheon. Although he might have been allied with the elves & Chondalwood inhabitants in opposition to Jhaamdath.
Valigan Thirdborn (possibly the thirdborn child of Auppenser, but alternatively he could have been an ascended mortal who arose in the Jhaamdath area after Jhaamdath had already fallen to the elven cataclysm. Not sure if Valigan's rise in -269 DR was an initial rise to power, or more of a revival after he had been forgotten following a long period of Pax Jhaamdatha. Valigan's portfolio of Anarchy seems a lot like Bane's portfolio of strife, so if Bane got strife from Borem, then Borem might have obtained custody of strife for a time in the wake of Tyr slaying Valigan in -247 DR.)
Malyk (this guy is just weak speculation, he may rather be an ascended mortal or a god of the Underdark. But his name comes up in relation to Talos so I had an inkling he could be the Jhaamdathan storm god.)
Shaundakul was big in Myth Drannor, and in the pantheon of the ancient Rus and was big in the Moonsea area. Not sure if he was venerated as far South as Jhaamdath, although we can't rule it out.
I wouldn't put Malyk here, I don't think he was worshipped outside of the Underdark. |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2010 : 07:20:22
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| You are correct. Eric Boyd gave more info about Malyk a little further into the thread. Those initial ideas became more developed and fleshed out as the thread progresses. Malyk and Nobanion both were ruled out as contenders, while other candidates were added and considered. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2020 : 00:22:49
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Master Richardson, et alia,
Haec mando volumine et resurgere a Domino iussus scientiarum studiosi virtutis!
quote:
Psionics occur where the Mind and Self-Knowledge intersect with the Weave. I have been thinking that since Ed Bonny tells us that Auppenser's divine realm is in Dweomertor, the plane of magic, and since psionics are a subset of magic within the Realms, it seems likely that Auppenser is the offspring of one of the magic gods. That implies Mystra or Leira.
Wow, this is sort of mind blowing to me. I use Leira in subtle (and sometimes somewhat overt, but rarely) ways, but never considered Auppenser. Is there anything in lore to relate those two more significantly?
Great Reader sleyvas, I am looking at you. ;)
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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The Jhaamdathan Pantheon
