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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

They sell cookies every year, in the month of Alturiak. The Skinny Mints are particularly popular!

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

What, pray tell, is weapons-grade leather? Is that something a priestess of Loviatar would wear?

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Originally posted by Arik

Ah, the Harper Illuminati ... blah blah

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Originally posted by Arik

It's a milspec bookbinding. Complies with MIL-STD-190377623C2 which specifies certain leather wear and durability requirements, compliance with stress/puncture/tear testing, minimal resistance to water immersion, heat and flames, dragonbreath, etc etc. Part of the Rev-C2 errata includes a ECN specification that the Leather-57 isotope threshold must be below 110 clicky things per minute, and the (previously optional) fancy brass grommet must now be installed on every piece.

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A religious leader, exarch, chosen, or avatar of some non-Harper god. Mask, Leira, or Waukeen, perhaps.

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The Harpers finance themselves through syndication of course. They've infiltrated positions of authority and have resources and revenue scattered throughout Waterdeep and the Lord's Alliance, the North, the Sword Coast, Cormyr, the Dales, the Moonsea, and beyond. Pretty much every church dedicated to Milil, Oghma, Denier, Silvanus, or *any* good-aligned goddess (most especially Selűne, Mielikki, Tymora, Larue, Lliira, Chauntea, Sune, even Mystra/Midnight) can function as a Harper stronghold and siphon funds into or through the Harper organization. They use secret gang symbols, signs, tattoos, and colours to mark their safehouses and turf and to identify members. And (judging from the novels) though the organization might contribute some lore and odd magical items toward important missions and quests, they aren't above the usual megacorporate practice of taking advantage of the naiveté and goodwill of their employees, ie: the burden of operational expenses (labour, travel costs, supplies, food and lodging, bribes) usually falls into the pockets of individual Harper agents who are typically given little more than token compensation in return.

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The Harpers conveniently don't have any clearly defined membership, charter, mission statement, legal permits, headquarters or offices, structured chain of command and responsibility, accurate accounting ledgers, 1-800 hotlines, nor even a website. They are basically a good-aligned pyramid scheme — you buy into the scam with some vague notion of "fighting evil" then try to sell your friends (or anyone else you can recruit) into buying into the scam under you ... if you are particularly successful you become "qualified" to volunteer for more difficult and dangerous work and perhaps even earn the option of buying some sort of "special training" with absolutely no real-world application outside of the Harper franchise.

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I personally suspect the Harpers are just a money-laundering front, an illegal import/export exchange, a spy network, a fencing and racketeering operation, a decentralized thieves' guild, a plausibly deniable elite black-ops corporate espionage corps, and what our society would call terrorists or guerillas.

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I wouldn't be surprised to learn of power-mad corruption and clandestine religious wars unwittingly carried out by Harper pawns, even against members within the "same" organization. I wouldn't be surprised if agents or sleepers from other organizations (like Zhents) have infiltrated Harper ranks. (Detect Evil only goes so far, y'know.) Remember that Harpers never really deal with the organization, only with individuals ... it's quite possible that nobody really has a clue what the "organization" is really up to because there's really no cohesion or communication. Your Harper missions most likely involve whatever your Harper boss whimsically decides you should do.

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Originally posted by cpthero2

Great Reader Ayrik,

Wow, fantastic post! I think the Harper's are generally speaking an incredibly corrupt, mafia like organization. Of course there are some good people in there, but generally not a "good" organization.

Anyhow, I am here to clarify on some Leira material as I have her powerfully involved in my current and next campaign. Then, since I completely agree with you about the Harper's, I'll address your fantastic points! :)

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A religious leader, exarch, chosen, or avatar of some non-Harper god. Mask, Leira, or Waukeen, perhaps.

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I have had the same thoughts, but haven't been able to find anything that pointed to it specifically. Have you found anything by chance? I'd love to read up on it if you have. It is usually those magazine articles that this stuff is found in.

Now on to the other stuff! :)

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The Harpers finance themselves through syndication of course. They've infiltrated positions of authority and have resources and revenue scattered throughout Waterdeep and the Lord's Alliance, the North, the Sword Coast, Cormyr, the Dales, the Moonsea, and beyond. Pretty much every church dedicated to Milil, Oghma, Denier, Silvanus, or *any* good-aligned goddess (most especially Selűne, Mielikki, Tymora, Larue, Lliira, Chauntea, Sune, even Mystra/Midnight) can function as a Harper stronghold and siphon funds into or through the Harper organization. They use secret gang symbols, signs, tattoos, and colours to mark their safehouses and turf and to identify members. And (judging from the novels) though the organization might contribute some lore and odd magical items toward important missions and quests, they aren't above the usual megacorporate practice of taking advantage of the naiveté and goodwill of their employees, ie: the burden of operational expenses (labour, travel costs, supplies, food and lodging, bribes) usually falls into the pockets of individual Harper agents who are typically given little more than token compensation in return.

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My god, I'd think you were secretly recording my thoughts! Yes. Yes, indeed. The Harper's are just too involved in things. They have their grubby little hands in too much, and when "leadership" (whatever that means) gets called to the carpet, guess what happens: not a dang thing! Nothing. That is a preposterously corrupt organization. However, that does make it a really fun organization to play, once you accept it for what it is. :)

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The Harpers conveniently don't have any clearly defined membership, charter, mission statement, legal permits, headquarters or offices, structured chain of command and responsibility, accurate accounting ledgers, 1-800 hotlines, nor even a website. They are basically a good-aligned pyramid scheme — you buy into the scam with some vague notion of "fighting evil" then try to sell your friends (or anyone else you can recruit) into buying into the scam under you ... if you are particularly successful you become "qualified" to volunteer for more difficult and dangerous work and perhaps even earn the option of buying some sort of "special training" with absolutely no real-world application outside of the Harper franchise.

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Your outlooks are fantastic. The 'Emperor has no Clothes.' They are a sham organization, passed off as "fighting the good fight for the common man." It's honestly a bunch of poppycock. At least when the Blackstaff went off to get things going with the Moonstars, he wasn't held back by the "Code of the Harpers." That code is an absolutely discarded set of rules when the powerful don't like them. Just ask Rundarl Moonsklan.

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I personally suspect the Harpers are just a money-laundering front, an illegal import/export exchange, a spy network, a fencing and racketeering operation, a decentralized thieves' guild, a plausibly deniable elite black-ops corporate espionage corps, and what our society would call terrorists or guerillas.

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The fact that the Blackstaff gave the Scepter of the Sorcerer Kings to Fzoul means he doesn't give any concern for the common man. He's just moving pawn pieces around.

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I wouldn't be surprised to learn of power-mad corruption and clandestine religious wars unwittingly carried out by Harper pawns, even against members within the "same" organization. I wouldn't be surprised if agents or sleepers from other organizations (like Zhents) have infiltrated Harper ranks. (Detect Evil only goes so far, y'know.) Remember that Harpers never really deal with the organization, only with individuals ... it's quite possible that nobody really has a clue what the "organization" is really up to because there's really no cohesion or communication. Your Harper missions most likely involve whatever your Harper boss whimsically decides you should do.

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I will say, the only reason I "dislike" the Harper's is because they are pawned off as some "good" organization. It is all lies. Sure, there are some good people in there. That's a great cover. However, when you see the Blackstaff do what he did, yet Finder Wyvernspur, got..........hmmm.......let me check the record from the "court" proceedings.........life in prison because he screwed up regarding an apprentice and was arrogant, I think there are som priority issues in that organization.

Best regards,

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Originally posted by Ayrik

I think my statements here (from ten years ago) were meant to provoke some skepticism. A sarcastic tone to emphasize/ridicule parts of the operations which aren't normally visible, to make readers ask themselves whether what they've read about Harpers is truly objective or if it's basically biased in-setting marketing/propaganda. To make readers question exactly how "unreliable" the "unreliable narrator" might be.

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Originally posted by Gary Dallison

Now this is my kind of thread. Since reading Song of the Saurials I've been mulling over how far the corruption of moander might have spread in the organisation (and cyrylia dragonbreast got ill with an incurable and undiagnosable disease very suddenly).

Actual evil infiltration aside though, every organisation should have the overly zealous type evil, the morally dubious but highly skilled type evil, the naive and ignorant type of evil. None of these believe themselves to be evil but are found everywhere and either commit evil themselves in the name of righteousness or allow it to be committed through inaction.

As for money. The Harpers have many people killed and break up many evil organisations all over faerun, why not steal their assets.
Why not deliberately infiltrate evil organisations and funnel their riches away towards the Harpers, allowing the Harpers to get info and grow rich from the infiltrated evil, only destroying it when it is poor and of no more use.

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Originally posted by TheIriaeban

I found this while digging around for something else in Amn & Tethyr: Lands of Intrigue (Book Three page 20):

"By the Year of the Dracorage (1018 DR), the Twisted Rune was the largest power group in southwestern Faerün, with agents infiltrating the power structures of every country and city south of the High Moor and west of the Storm Horn Mountains."

If they are in Berdusk's government, they are in the Harpers.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

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Originally posted by Gary Dallison

Now this is my kind of thread. Since reading Song of the Saurials I've been mulling over how far the corruption of moander might have spread in the organisation (and cyrylia dragonbreast got ill with an incurable and undiagnosable disease very suddenly).

Actual evil infiltration aside though, every organisation should have the overly zealous type evil, the morally dubious but highly skilled type evil, the naive and ignorant type of evil. None of these believe themselves to be evil but are found everywhere and either commit evil themselves in the name of righteousness or allow it to be committed through inaction.

As for money. The Harpers have many people killed and break up many evil organisations all over faerun, why not steal their assets.
Why not deliberately infiltrate evil organisations and funnel their riches away towards the Harpers, allowing the Harpers to get info and grow rich from the infiltrated evil, only destroying it when it is poor and of no more use.

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Yep, I bet some harpers are simply "murder hobos" who claim what they're doing is good (and it may be), but in the end they're just grabbing loot. Since there is no real leadership, who do they hand over all the magic items or gained jewelry, gems, coin, trade bars to? Even if they are handing the loot they gained up to whoever got them into the harpers, who is to say that THAT person is even a harper. It could be someone who made the harper symbols into pins and told a bunch of folks "you're working for the harpers now... hey go raid those zhent caravans and bring me back all their money... um, so I can help those sick orphans over there". They might even take some money and help the sick orphans, you know... to make it look legit to their new adventurers long enough to send them to go rob some other group for them....

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by sleyvas

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Originally posted by Gary Dallison

Now this is my kind of thread. Since reading Song of the Saurials I've been mulling over how far the corruption of moander might have spread in the organisation (and cyrylia dragonbreast got ill with an incurable and undiagnosable disease very suddenly).

Actual evil infiltration aside though, every organisation should have the overly zealous type evil, the morally dubious but highly skilled type evil, the naive and ignorant type of evil. None of these believe themselves to be evil but are found everywhere and either commit evil themselves in the name of righteousness or allow it to be committed through inaction.

As for money. The Harpers have many people killed and break up many evil organisations all over faerun, why not steal their assets.
Why not deliberately infiltrate evil organisations and funnel their riches away towards the Harpers, allowing the Harpers to get info and grow rich from the infiltrated evil, only destroying it when it is poor and of no more use.

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Yep, I bet some harpers are simply "murder hobos" who claim what they're doing is good (and it may be), but in the end they're just grabbing loot. Since there is no real leadership, who do they hand over all the magic items or gained jewelry, gems, coin, trade bars to? Even if they are handing the loot they gained up to whoever got them into the harpers, who is to say that THAT person is even a harper. It could be someone who made the harper symbols into pins and told a bunch of folks "you're working for the harpers now... hey go raid those zhent caravans and bring me back all their money... um, so I can help those sick orphans over there". They might even take some money and help the sick orphans, you know... to make it look legit to their new adventurers long enough to send them to go rob some other group for them....

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But we've seen that the Harpers do police their own -- so someone riding the Harper name and not advancing Harper causes is not going to be able to do it for long.

And Harper adventurers generally don't go around announcing their presence as Harpers, either, since that would invite even more negative attention from certain directions than just being an adventurer would. Anyone who announces to the world that they are a Harper is going to get a lot of powerful enemies, very quickly.

The best way for there to be a corrupt Harper would be if it was someone who kept a low profile and was in a position to do things unseen -- like maybe a shopkeep who's a Harper, but is also giving info to another group.

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