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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Nov 2020 : 22:11:16
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Master Rupert,
I hope this missive finds you well good sir!
quote:
Once again, you bring up your anti-Khelben screed, which you simply cannot seem to resist trotting out at every opportunity.
Well, I actually am a fan of the Blackstaff, just not as a Harper. I have a lot more respect for the guy upon creating and working in the Moonstar's. I felt that that was the moment that the Blackstaff said "I'm out, and I'm done playing by these stupid rules that just get in the way." Yeah, he's a liar, and all of the things I said (at least I think so based on the evidence I have supplied in this and our previous discussion): http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=22542, but as a character with flaws like any character, I don't take issue with his being evil and a liar. I only ever took issue with it as him being associated with the alleged goodness of the Harper's. As long as he isn't playing pretend with the Harper's and acting like he is a good guy anymore, that is the thing that I want to see. I think the development of the Blackstaff to the Moonstar's is much more in line with his personality, ethic, and sense of morality.
I do feel that the Blackstaff is a force for good... just his definition of good. Which is fine. I liked watching Death Wish with Charles Bronson, too.
quote:
It's really remarkable, to me, how you ignore mountains of information and focus on one minor detail, and assume that one moment defines an entire existence.
I'm glad we're revisiting the evidence factory. I just so happen to have it cataloged at this point. Please, come on in! :)
Based on the Blackstaff's action, he is a consequentialist. He is worried about the outcomes, more than he is about what happens along the way to achieving those outcomes. I do believe that a person can do much good, but overshadow all of that good with a small amount of horrific evil acts, or even just one, evil act, if it is bad enough. The resultant outcomes of his handing over the nucle... Scepter of the Sorcerer King, met that criteria.
So, what our disagreement often seems to boil down to is the following: can "mountains of information" showing the Blackstaff's good deeds, be outweighed by a smaller volume of bad deeds, or as you put it, "...one minor detail..."? I say yes, you say no. I can respect your different point of view, while still disagreeing with it. I guess that is because we look at the decision making process for how/what good and evil actions are, and the overall weight of those actions, differently. That is just a guess though, and if I have erred, please do correct me.
Though, please, don't take only my word for it.. Let's revisit what Great Reader Ayrik said about this very topic, (9) years ago:
Great Reader Ayrik on 02 Feb 2011 : 14:48:17
quote:
Ah, the Harper Illuminati. I personally suspect the Harpers are just a money-laundering front, an illegal import/export exchange, a spy network, a fencing and racketeering operation, a decentralized thieves' guild, a plausibly deniable elite black-ops corporate espionage corps, and what our society would call terrorists or guerillas.
I just wonder where someone could ever come up with such a belief? Probably all of the "mountains" of evidence that they leave behind to demonstrate that they're really not all that great. Let's take a peek at that evidence that I believe Great Reader Ayrik was referring to in more detail:
From Code of the Harpers, p.26
quote:
He and Khelben did not turn entirely to their own affairs, however. They continued to manipulate the growing ranks of Those Who Harp as subtly as the Harpers were later to operate in the wider Realms, drawing them into trade alliances and a recognition of the need to make enough money to support themselves.
Manipulating is always a good thing. Well, it is when I try to get my 2 year old to eat his porridge. It is not so good if I'm dealing with my work peers, who are putting their lives on the line every day at work.
From Code of the Harpers, p.27
quote:
Khelben began a careful, covert process of investing such funds in valuable properties and businesses in cities up and down the Sword Coast, to ensure the Harpers of a permanent income (the Harpers are the largest "secret landlords" in Waterdeep today).
That definitely smacks of exactly what Great Reader Ayrik was arguing about when he said, quote:
...and have resources and revenue scattered throughout Waterdeep and the Lord's Alliance...
Yeah, that seems legit when taken into account with all the stealin', war, and manipulation of its agents.
Oh, I almost forgot. I just wonder what happened to all of those investments when the Blackstaff quit the Harper's after getting called out by Rundorl, and went back to Waterdeep to get the Moonstar's going? Oh, I think we all know. I'm sure that the Blackstaff did the "right" thing, and handed those investments over. Since we know that is likely not what happened, it is quickly easy to see that those investments were always with strings attached, and directly related to the Blackstaff's power. Oh yeah, what did the Code of the Harper's say about power?
quote:
A Harper who seizes power, and holds it above all else, is a traitor to the harp. Traitors must die, for freedom to live. (Code of the Harper's, p.10)
Let's see, he quit, took a good amount of the powerful Harper's with him, and started up his new organization, the Moonstar's, and it is extremely reasonable to assume that the investments meant to be used for the Harper's and relied upon by the Harper's for all of those years, was taken away to support the Moonstar's. Laughably, hideously, and morally bankrupt, that is.
However, just in case there is some attempt to further justify the chaos and all too often lack of a consistent and decent ethic of the Harper's by those big decisions they make here and there, let's take a look at what a really bad, naughty Harper looks like. Let's take a peek at Finder Wyvernspur.
Now, just in case there are some new folk to the Realms here, what I am about to quote below can be triggering, so if you are squeamish, look away...
From Code of the Harpers, p.27
quote:
With the good, however, came bad. Finder Wyvernspur, always arrogant, seemed to have turned to evil in his advancing age. Searching for a way to immortalize his songs, he dabbled in magic that brought about the deaths, of two of his apprentices. Appalled, local Harpers called a tribunal of three senior Harpers: Morala, priestess of Milil, Dundable Mistrin, a druid dedicated to Silvanus, and Muoreth Talanstar, a half-elven ranger who worshiped Mielikki. By their verdict, these judges made it clear to all that the Harpers would police their own. The Code of the Harpers was not empty words, but a creed that made Harpers different from brigands and thieves, that all who had dealings with them could rely on. Finder's music and name were to be forgotten. Powerful spells stripped the memory of the man's own name from him, and 'the Nameless Bard' was exiled to a solitary existence on another plane a sentence that would last almost 300 years.
Hold on there. Let me get this straight, lol.  Khelben goes and commits mega theft, then intentionally hands the Scepter of the Sorcerer Kings over to the ultimate bad guy for the Harper's, leading to untold death, destruction, and mayhem, but Finder screws up trying to get an immortal record deal for himself after getting a couple of apprentices accidentally killed, and gets his identity taken away and imprisoned for what was supposed to be all of a time? lol Wow, make room there Khelben Arunsun! You've got some competition for some of the most outrageously self-important egoists. We're going to need a little more room in the judges chambers to fit all that arrogance in there for Morala and Muoreth Talanstar! Didn't Great Reader Ayrik make a point about who's in charge, since we're on the subject? Indeed he did:
quote:
Who's really in charge? It could be any of (or any combination of)
A religious leader, exarch, chosen, or avatar of some Harper god.
A religious leader, exarch, chosen, or avatar of some non-Harper god. Mask, Leira, or Waukeen, perhaps.
A corporation-minded dragon whose hoard is comprised of properties and investments across half of Faerûn.
A handful of powerful individuals (who may not even know each other) within the Harper ranks.
A byzantine opportunistic verbal bureaucracy with no proper leadership ranks whatsoever.
A secret cabal from the Gnomish Bankers Guild. Never trust a gnome, lol.
lol indeed! If there wasn't so much wrong with how the Harper "organization" is run, I'd say it was a Waterdhavian comedy troupe making billions, in disguise! ;)
As to the "...one minor detail..." point you made Master Rupert, again, evidence:
- Westgate has a Manshoon clone takeover causing massive problems, with murders, theft, and outright control of the city taken away
- Manshoon clones start gathering up magic items from stores that "...rivaled those of the Blackstaff and Lady Hope Alustriel." (Cloak and Dagger, p16)
- "Lastly, the largest impact on the Realms is the sudden and rapid increase in deaths and destruction among those wielders of Art." (Cloak and Dagger, p11)
- Fzoul becomes even more powerful and becomes the Chosen of Iyachtu Xvim
- "Kythorn 27: Panic ensues in the crowded market of Silverymoon as some young foolish apprentice yells out "It's Mad Manshoon!" and points at a visiting mage..." Four people and the innocent diviner die in the fight [see above about death and destruction]
- "Midsummer: At an impromptu MageFair just across from the River Chionthar..." three Manshoon clones fight, catching innocents in the mix leaving at least (19) innocent wizards dead (Cloak and Dagger, p18)
- Did someone promise (27) years (10,000 days) of limiting expansion to the east of the Thunderpeaks?
quote:
Sadly, and I know we're all shocked by this development, but Fzoul lied. The Zhentarim a mere 4.5 years later, on Kythorn the 10th, 1374 DR, did go west of the Thunderpeaks with violence: on multiple occasions no less.
quote:
Kythorn 10: Dabron’s caravan leaves Hluthvar, heading for Irieabor. The Tyrant of the Moonsea issues a proclamation in which he claims that all trade in the “instruments of tyranny” is the sole province of the church of Bane. This is widely interpreted as a move by the Zhentarim to seize control of the weapons and arms trade in the Heartlands at the expense of the Iron Throne.
Well, that's not good.
quote:
Kythorn 17: Dabron’s caravan is attacked by Zhentilar troops while crossing the Bridge of Fallen Men. The Black Network’s troops are driven off at a heavy cost.
If that wasn't bad enough up above, this next one must really sting for Elminster (and probably would for The Blackstaff if he were still living):
quote:
Nightal 16: In the early morning hours, the Zhentarim army led by Scyllua Darkhope overruns Shadowdale with the aid of the Church of Shar and House Dhuurniv. The Army of Myth Drannor is unable to respond as Zhentarim brigades to the east launch simultaneous attacks on several key elf fortifications.
Shadowdale is west of the Thunderpeaks.
As to your next point:
quote:
There's no proof of Harper corruption and loads of proof otherwise, but hey, one assumption and you spin it how you want.
I went and checked the "proof" vault in the evidence factory, and low and behold, I found some. From the Code of the Harpers, p.24, quote:
Elminster and Khelben spent most of the Year of the Wandering Wyvern (1022 DR; a name that would turn out to be a prophetic) searching for a suitable adventuring band to take up the mantle of the Harpers and provide the heart of the organization in the years to come.They needed adventurers who were skilled in the ways of the wild and of battle, and who had the hearts and backbone to dedicate themselves to a cause - but they had to find heroes who hadn't yet dedicated themselves to one. All too often they found that corruption had outpaced them. The most promising adventurers were bowing to the cause of enriching themselves and seizing power.
Well geez. That was all happening during the Long Years, which was immediately after the Dancing Place accord, and the year 1022DR. Seems likely that the corruption started right away. That's a good 298 year period of time where the Harper's had issues with corruption. I mean, when both Elminster and Khelben (ok, that is laughable to include the Blackstaff here, but you have to from the quote) say, "All too often they found that corruption had outpaced them", does the dead horse have to be beaten anymore?
doorknocker is used Who or what could that be?  Well look at this! I just got a delivery from The Tower of Pain Exalted in Zhentil Keep. It has to be from Fzoul. That rascally fellow always knows what to get me for my birthday! opens the box Look, its a +5 Shillelagh of Keep Beating The Dead Horse to Death More. What a guy, that Fzoul is! :)
From Code of the Harpers, p.33, quote:
The network of "friends" was intact and largely ignorant of the corruption that had grown at the heart of the organization, but the body of experienced Harpers of middling power that Elminster had hoped would lead Those Who Harp into the next century was shattered. Grimly he set about recruiting and rebuilding, aided by the sisters Storm and Dove.
"...of the corruption that had grown at the heart of the organization..." That was in the 1200's. Not looking good for "no proof of Harper corruption" so far, especially since they just tried dealing with it after the first (298) years.
quote:
And Khelben has spent centuries working for the good of the common man, and even his deal with Fzoul was to the benefit of the entire freaking Sword Coast -- but hey, Fzoul did something bad, so that means you can ignore everything else that is known about Khelben and his actions and declare him to be evil.
Well, you are right that Fzoul did something. That is truth. However, we're just blaming Fzoul? No co-conspiracy to commit... let me check my felony register here... theft of a major artifact w/ intent to deliver to one of the most evil people ever, mayhem, murder, infrastructure damage to the tune of likely millions of gold, and giving aid and comfort to the enemy? All because Khelben gave the scepter to Fzoul. If that isn't culpability right there, I have no idea what would lead to culpability.
If Finder got the sentence he did for his wrong doings, I would imagine Khelben should get something simply unimaginable for his punishment.
Based on the belief that ones actions during the course of trying to achieve a beneficial outcome matters, I do therefore judge the Blackstaff to be evil. If I was of a consequentialist ethic, I would likely agree with the Blackstaff's actions. He simply justifies his actions, which is fine, but the facts are the facts. The loss of blood, treasure, and infrastructure was enormous as evidenced in Cloak and Dagger.
But wait...there's more! ;) I think I hear a Chronomancer casting a spell... do you hear it too? looks around with trepidation
deities di arcaniss svaust nymuer ve si relgr acht wer aunel ekess revisit wer boja!
traveling through time to Master Rupert on 29 Jan 2006 @ 00:42:05
quote:
Do we know for a fact that Fzoul is behind it?
and quote:
I know that my opinion is not universal, but I'm not willing to think Fzoul is going to pull a fast one on Khelben and get away with it.
Indeed we do know that Fzoul was behind it. As to the second part there, indeed, Fzoul did pull a fast one on Khelben and did get away with it. Let's not take my word for it though, let's see what another sage of the 'Keep has to say about that while we're here in times past:
quote:
Great Reader Dargoth Posted - 28 Jan 2006 : 21:24:44 I just got a hold of the Legacy of the Green Regent Module LGR22 As seconds slip away. ... and well I think Khelbhan has just become the realms Nevile Chamberlin. The Zhentarim have mustered an army in Llorkh with the intent of invading Loudwater!
quote:
Great Reader Dargoth Posted - 28 Jan 2006: 22:03:17 The point is Fzoul clearly has RENEGED on their agreement
quote:
Master Rupert Posted - 29 Jan 2006 : 05:28:36 And remember, a deal goes two ways. Would Fzoul really throw 30 years of non-interference out the window for the sake of taking a single town? He can literally get away with murder, if he stays in his playground. Why lose that advantage?
I'm going to have to say that I agree with Great Reader Dargoth on his views regarding both the implication of whoever this very mysterious Chamberlain character is that he referenced and as well the reneging on the deal part.
I have a response to your assertion that Fzoul wouldn't pull a fast one on Khelben. For a little change up though, I figured I'd stretch my wings a bit here and offer my response as scene from a play that I've had run through my head a few times. Here's the scene:
Imagine ourselves as members of the audience at the Pink Flumph theater in Waterdeep's Castle Ward. We just got our hands, luckily enough, on tickets to watch the portrayal of that fateful day on 24 Marpenoth, 1369DR, at the then "Dark Lords Hand" temple, in Voonlar, when Fzoul Chembryl meets with The Blackstaff. Let's go there now...
Acolyte Steve brings Lord Fzoul Chembryl his morningfeast: "Lord Fzoul, your morningfeast, as demanded."
Fzoul: "Steve, you incompetent fool! I ordered (5) eggs over medium, not (3) eggs over easy! I could get salmonilla and die!"
Acolyte Steve: Looking visibly frightened, slightly looks away from the ominous stare of Lord High Fzoul, with a guilty look upon his face.
Fzoul: "By the gods, you must be an assassin of Cyrrollalee, Lord of Hearth and Home, to bring me such a homicidal meal!" Lord Fzoul casts Implosion and eradicates the errant cook/acolyte.
Blackstaff: The Blackstaff teleports in, "Well, that seemed a bit drastic, Fzoul!  " [queue laugh track] "Anyhow, as the head of the Church of Tyranny, Ambition, and Control, I suppose you should get your eggs the way you want them. I'll let that murder go... this time, Fzoul.", says the Blackstaff, with a sideways smirk on his face. [queue laugh track again] "Now seriously Fzoul, let's talk about making a deal for this Scepter of the Sorcerer King. I'm totally serious this time. I demand 10,000 days of no westward expansion beyond the Thunderpeaks. You got it?"
Fzoul: Fzoul, after a tense several moments of thinking, asks, "Did you bring the Scepter, Khelben?", outstretching a hand to receive it.
Blackstaff: "Indeed. I have it here with me, Fzoul. Do we have a deal based on my terms?"
Fzoul: "We do, Khelben. Now hand it over."
Blackstaff: Hands over the scepter and says, "Don't you even think about being a super evil bad guy, Fzoul, and double cross me, or else...", and teleports away.
Fzoul: "Orderly!! Bring me a fresh order of s**ts to give about The Blackstaff's deal!", he yells with the authority one would expect of his mightiness.
Acolyte Suzy: "Lord High Chembryl, it appears... it appea...", a subdued and trailing off voice says, before screaming in terror but with that clear and deep desire for self-preservation, "We're out of s**ts to give, Lord High Chembryl!"
Fzoul: Looks at Suzy with a wry look and says in a sardonic tone, "Now, you know what we do to people who don't provide me with the needed s**ts to give don't you?  How am I suppose to keep my deal with The Blackstaff if I am out of s**ts to give?!"
***Implosion***
--- END SCENE ---
It looks like that is about as much concern as Lord Chembryl gave to keeping the deal with the Blackstaff.
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2020 : 22:39:38
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All that convoluted drivel...and I still don't see evidence of KHELBEN being evil. Where is the CANON reference...not the supposition. Where?
You use "evidence" of the Harpers having been corrupted IN THE PAST as your proof of it being so TODAY. Sheesh.
I have literally mostly kept away from Candlekeep because of your pedantry; because it is seriously a pain in the ass. Being "long winded" is not proof at all. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2020 : 22:57:18
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Great Reader Darden,
A good afternoon to you!
quote:
All that convoluted drivel...and I still don't see evidence of KHELBEN being evil. Where is the CANON reference...not the supposition. Where?
I standby what I've presented, though you remain unconvinced. People must not always agree, and that is seemingly the position we're in at this moment. I certainly can appreciate that, and respect your different opinion. I find the notion of agreeing to disagree to be quite palatable as an alternative in such situations. :)
quote:
You use "evidence" of the Harpers having been corrupted IN THE PAST as your proof of it being so TODAY. Sheesh.
That depends on what you consider "today." Since I never went beyond 1385DR, that narrows the scale of time much closer to when Khelben stole the scepter, gave it to Fzoul, had his trial, and left to create the Moonstar's. All of which were extremely bad, of course. Now, if someone is looking at things through a longer lens of history, by being in the late 1400's, I can understand a bit more your point there. Then again, there isn't much lore to go off of from a post-Spellplague perspective, so what is there is largely meant to foster adventures (I feel) mildly, not to really give deep, meaningful lore to the Realms, post-Spellplague.
The other point though regarding past offenses and issues the Harper's have had, is that they never seem to escape it. It appears to be a common issue within their ranks, which is unsurprising when the leadership of the organization is so questionable.
quote:
I have literally mostly kept away from Candlekeep because of your pedantry; because it is seriously a pain in the ass. Being "long winded" is not proof at all.
Well, I am glad to see you having returned to the keep good sir!
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2020 : 23:01:26
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Great Reader Ayrik,
quote:
I think my statements here (from ten years ago) were meant to provoke some skepticism. A sarcastic tone to emphasize/ridicule parts of the operations which aren't normally visible, to make readers ask themselves whether what they've read about Harpers is truly objective or if it's basically biased in-setting marketing/propaganda. To make readers question exactly how "unreliable" the "unreliable narrator" might be.
Well, I think your points were well made, and I really enjoyed the sarcasm, haha. There is so much more to the Harper's upon initially reading about them.
To be clear, as an organization in the Realms, they are [u]extremely interesting[/i] to me. I think they are a really cool organization. I'm just attempting to call out what is a thin layer of "good guy'ism", thinly veiling a much seedier, darker, underbelly. I think that is what makes them so interesting, and why I feel your sarcastic (and very entertaining) points were well made.
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2020 : 23:16:01
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Great Reader sleyvas,
quote:
It's a good idea. Basically, throwing in some corruption into the harpers makes a lot of sense given that it is so fluid for leadership. Its natural that some people would set themselves up in positions of power possibly without even really questioning their own motives and making excuses.
If we throw much more in there, I think it could go critical and they could very well find themselves polymorphing into the Zhentarim! Ok, clearly the Harper's are not as bad as the Zhentarim, overall, but they have issues of significance.
quote:
I wouldn't go so far as to make it an entirely criminal organization from the top, but the idea that the founders like Elminster, Storm, etc... might be getting the wool pulled over their eyes while they're looking in on some other issue.
Well, that happened when Rundorl Moonsklan was doing this thing while everyone of power was away during the Harpstar Wars.
quote:
It doesn't even need to be outright evil. It can be a misunderstanding where some leadership in say the north considers cheating Calishites "ok" because "all of those Calishite traders are criminals anyway". One need only look at our own world to find similar situations where one group feels that they need to "guide" things because "other groups don't know what's right", and they use their own self-righteous belief in themselves to qualify that what they think is correct.
And that is really where I think it is. The organization is so poorly managed, and there are so many competing interests with different ethics, that it makes it practically impossible for them to do the "right" thing (whatever that means).
quote:
Or to put it more succinctly and broadly (and therefore less specific as well).... the harpers as presented are meant for a play style that's less believable and geared towards a simpler game where a DM just points and say "these are the good guys", and if one were to include more realism in the game the way that its currently setup is ripe for corruptive influence. Neither style of play is necessarily bad, but from a story perspective, I'd find the one with more realism much more interesting.
Agreed, however, if any degree of RP comes into the equation and someone starts to ask questions (I had a player for his character do this who was a Harper at the table), it's hard to provide cover for that organization. haha
quote:
Along these same lines, so many things in the game are of a similar bent. Elves are presented as "good", but then later people started questioning this and putting in elitist elves who focus on their own race's needs before others. There's other examples I could throw up, but I also don't want to light a stick of dynamite around here, and I think I made my point... I agree, the harper's lack of definition and "broad" goals make them a bit unbelievable and open for corruption.... but they do have good propagandists and sometimes that is an extremely effective tool.
I agree there too. I mean, the Crown Wars had some unbelievable justifications for the Elves behavior at times. I mean, wow........the murder hobo action was preposterous. I find them analysis of such groups/organizations, etc. to be interesting and the compelling reason behind who, what, why, when, where they are who they are.
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2020 : 23:53:07
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Great Reader Dallison,
quote:
Now this is my kind of thread. Since reading Song of the Saurials I've been mulling over how far the corruption of moander might have spread in the organisation (and cyrylia dragonbreast got ill with an incurable and undiagnosable disease very suddenly).
Nice! I'm glad you like it as well. :) I never even thought of Moander in that regard, but dang, you are right about that! That is a great idea. :) I could see some serious associating with Talona as well in that regard.
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Actual evil infiltration aside though, every organisation should have the overly zealous type evil, the morally dubious but highly skilled type evil, the naive and ignorant type of evil. None of these believe themselves to be evil but are found everywhere and either commit evil themselves in the name of righteousness or allow it to be committed through inaction.
I mean, power usually does corrupt. I think your idea about having that one or more super zealous people causing issues, is just a fact. Someone, somewhere, is just not happy with the status quo and has to have an extra helping of dinner and dessert. ;)
quote:
As for money. The Harpers have many people killed and break up many evil organisations all over faerun, why not steal their assets.
Why not deliberately infiltrate evil organisations and funnel their riches away towards the Harpers, allowing the Harpers to get info and grow rich from the infiltrated evil, only destroying it when it is poor and of no more use.
Well, the Harper's were already loaded due to investments loosely discussed in the Code of the Harper's. So, as to the orgs that have been broken up already by the Harper's I would imagine their coffers have gotten quite deep.
To be honest, I am stunned that the Herald's have not tried to slow down or stop the Harper's since they left in the early 900's.
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2020 : 01:33:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Yeah, but if these fake Harpers are not telling people that they're Harpers, then what's the point? They can't tell real Harpers and they aren't telling non-Harpers, so there's no benefit.
Besides, I'm sure there's certain requirements, within the group, for who can and can't recruit people.
And with it being canon that false Harpers are hunted down, then it's clear that not only is membership tracked, but that they also keep their ears to the ground... This is especially easy given the heavy presence of bards in the group.
I guess I'm not explaining it well. This is the idea I was thinking of for the fake harpers. The "fake harpers" that are doing the good deeds don't realize they're "fake harpers". They have someone above them that's pointing at targets and saying "yeah, that's a bad person, go get them and bring back their goods". Essentially, they believe that they are harpers, they hide who they are because they're told to do so, and they take out targets and return money to a person or persons that they fully believe is the harper leadership. The benefit is that this fake leadership has got dupes running around taking out targets for them and stealing their goods, and these "do-gooders" are also not inclined to reveal who is leading them out of misguided loyalty if they're caught.
On the second scenario of someone actually within the harpers misusing their role, they can recruit people and not tell the people above them. This is a little harder to do, since this leadership will be watched more. At the same time, the secrecy within the harpers themselves lends them to this exact kind of subterfuge. If they don't have a defined structure, it becomes very hard to do what is said to be done when it come to tracking their membership. Its a thing where one of their strengths (flexibility) is also one of their weaknesses as a result. When they DO find someone abusing their power, it seems like they go overboard to punish them (like what was done to Finder), but I'm not convinced that they actually have a good internal policing force.
BTW, on the second scenario... the idea that "only certain people in the harpers will be allowed to recruit" is very hard to control given their methods of recruitment. Literally what they do is find someone, hand them a pin, and then tell them "you can be a harper, but don't talk to anyone but me until I feel you've learned enough and I'll introduce you to others". The harper leadership can't control who is handing out pins, and the average person isn't going to know if they don't have a real harper pin. So if a brand new person is recruited into the harpers, they could in theory start recruiting people under them without telling anyone by just handing out pins. This can get really interesting if other groups like the twisted rune or knights of the shield start infiltrating the harpers. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 24 Nov 2020 02:31:45 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2020 : 01:48:23
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| Kill them all and let the gods sort them out. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2020 : 01:50:28
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| -Khelben is "Lawful Neutral" and by the D&D definition, that means he follows his own personal code, yada, yada, yada. As evidenced by cpthero2, he can stay true to those personal convictions by carrying out terrible actions; he might be the very definition of "the ends justify the means". Labeling him evil might maybe be a stretch, since in D&D the concept of evil is a lot more...tangible than it is in actual life and is far less subjective and relative and that muddles things a bit, but he is definitely not a good person or paragon of morality (and he probably would be the first to admit that). Honestly, that makes him one of the more interesting characters that get big chunks of spotlight in the setting. He's willing to get his hands dirty, he's willing to do things other people might not, he has a vision of what needs to be done in order to ensure a safe and free world (his version of that, anyway) and he's gonna do what he has to do in order to make sure that vision happens. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerûn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerûn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 24 Nov 2020 01:53:29 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2020 : 03:23:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Khelben is "Lawful Neutral" and by the D&D definition, that means he follows his own personal code, yada, yada, yada. As evidenced by cpthero2, he can stay true to those personal convictions by carrying out terrible actions; he might be the very definition of "the ends justify the means". Labeling him evil might maybe be a stretch, since in D&D the concept of evil is a lot more...tangible than it is in actual life and is far less subjective and relative and that muddles things a bit, but he is definitely not a good person or paragon of morality (and he probably would be the first to admit that). Honestly, that makes him one of the more interesting characters that get big chunks of spotlight in the setting. He's willing to get his hands dirty, he's willing to do things other people might not, he has a vision of what needs to be done in order to ensure a safe and free world (his version of that, anyway) and he's gonna do what he has to do in order to make sure that vision happens.
Khelben is very interesting to me because of the way he operates. He has generally worked for the common good, but yeah, he'll get his hands dirty to do it.
I readily acknowledge this.
My objection is to cpthero2's stance, repeated ad nauseam, that since Khelben did something questionable once that a bad guy took advantage of, then it makes Khelben himself evil. Centuries of working for the benefit of others, including nearly getting ripped in half, and none of that matters because one time Khelben gave Fzoul a tool.
Khelben is one of my favorite characters of the Realms. As annoying as it is to see him so badly mischaracterized, it's even more annoying that it keeps get brought up at the drop of a hat. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2020 : 03:24:20
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Yeah, but if these fake Harpers are not telling people that they're Harpers, then what's the point? They can't tell real Harpers and they aren't telling non-Harpers, so there's no benefit.
Besides, I'm sure there's certain requirements, within the group, for who can and can't recruit people.
And with it being canon that false Harpers are hunted down, then it's clear that not only is membership tracked, but that they also keep their ears to the ground... This is especially easy given the heavy presence of bards in the group.
I guess I'm not explaining it well. This is the idea I was thinking of for the fake harpers. The "fake harpers" that are doing the good deeds don't realize they're "fake harpers". They have someone above them that's pointing at targets and saying "yeah, that's a bad person, go get them and bring back their goods". Essentially, they believe that they are harpers, they hide who they are because they're told to do so, and they take out targets and return money to a person or persons that they fully believe is the harper leadership. The benefit is that this fake leadership has got dupes running around taking out targets for them and stealing their goods, and these "do-gooders" are also not inclined to reveal who is leading them out of misguided loyalty if they're caught.
On the second scenario of someone actually within the harpers misusing their role, they can recruit people and not tell the people above them. This is a little harder to do, since this leadership will be watched more. At the same time, the secrecy within the harpers themselves lends them to this exact kind of subterfuge. If they don't have a defined structure, it becomes very hard to do what is said to be done when it come to tracking their membership. Its a thing where one of their strengths (flexibility) is also one of their weaknesses as a result. When they DO find someone abusing their power, it seems like they go overboard to punish them (like what was done to Finder), but I'm not convinced that they actually have a good internal policing force.
BTW, on the second scenario... the idea that "only certain people in the harpers will be allowed to recruit" is very hard to control given their methods of recruitment. Literally what they do is find someone, hand them a pin, and then tell them "you can be a harper, but don't talk to anyone but me until I feel you've learned enough and I'll introduce you to others". The harper leadership can't control who is handing out pins, and the average person isn't going to know if they don't have a real harper pin. So if a brand new person is recruited into the harpers, they could in theory start recruiting people under them without telling anyone by just handing out pins. This can get really interesting if other groups like the twisted rune or knights of the shield start infiltrating the harpers.
Okay, I see where you're coming from, now. I shall object no further.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2020 : 05:54:11
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quote:
Though, please, don't take only my word for it.. Let's revisit what Great Reader Ayrik said about this very topic, (9) years ago:
Well, let us also remember that the one you address as "Great Reader Ayrik" today started off in Candlekeep as "Bumbling Enthusiastic Young Neophyte (and Junior Apprentice Quill Sharpener) Arik" some nine years ago.
[Edit]
I do still maintain my illuminati-conspiracy suspicions about those deviously greedy banking gnomes. Never trust a gnome! |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 24 Nov 2020 06:20:29 |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2020 : 07:41:06
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Great Reader Ayrik, formerly the Bumbling Enthusiastic Young Neophyte and Junior Apprentice Quill Sharpener,
Good morning good sir!
I love the original title. Things were clearly a little bit different back then here at the 'Keep! ;)
Ah, so it's just the Gnomes this time around, eh? ;) I've run across some Gnomes inland that are trustworthy, but those Lantanese Gnomes...they, you cannot trust! ;)
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2020 : 10:52:05
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Holy wall of text Bat-Man!
I've always figured Mystra's Chosen were the real villain's in the Realms. They just run around as a bunch of pesky do-gooders to hide their true evil... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2020 : 18:28:52
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Great Reader Karsus,
quote:
-Khelben is "Lawful Neutral" and by the D&D definition, that means he follows his own personal code, yada, yada, yada. As evidenced by cpthero2, he can stay true to those personal convictions by carrying out terrible actions; he might be the very definition of "the ends justify the means". Labeling him evil might maybe be a stretch, since in D&D the concept of evil is a lot more...tangible than it is in actual life and is far less subjective and relative and that muddles things a bit, but he is definitely not a good person or paragon of morality (and he probably would be the first to admit that).
I agree with the idea that Khelben is an "ends justify the means", or in ethics, what is called a consequentialist.
I do get your point about the "stretching" on the evil label. My point has always been that it depends on the scale being used, whether someones actions are evil or not. Now, your point regarding the "D&D concept of evil is a lot more...tangible..." is accurate. Though I have been using Khelben as the fulcrum for my argument about ethics and morals in the Realms, it really is the conceptual failure of alignment that is at the ground floor of the argument. It was an oversimplified tool (alignment) that was meant to bring a quick solution to right and wrong in the game. That made sense when it was Chainmail, OB D&D, and even 1st and 2nd edition. Though, with the advent of the internet, all of the knowledge that came, different forms of writing, rules systems, and more, the veil came back pretty hard I argue. The Emperor (the alignment system in this case) had no Clothes.
Any good story (in my opinion at least, haha) has those ethical and moral quandaries that come about. The "hero" has to make "that" decision. Will they make the decision the way I want to, some may ask? Others want to see the other. The fact that people see the choices a "hero" may make in such different ways, is what makes it obvious that ethics and morality are not uniform. I think Khelben (who is a fantastically cool character, regardless of my ethical analysis of him) is so well written as a character, that we can actually dig into the consistency of his actions in novels, accessories, etc., and try to figure out what makes this guy tick, in a really detailed way. I personally think that is super cool. I want to know what makes a mage of his caliber, power, influence, and age, make the decisions he does. I totally know that he can go melt pretty much anyone's face off if he chooses to do so. I am interested in why or why not that face melting is going to happen. What informs that ultimate consequence?
quote:
Honestly, that makes him one of the more interesting characters that get big chunks of spotlight in the setting. He's willing to get his hands dirty, he's willing to do things other people might not, he has a vision of what needs to be done in order to ensure a safe and free world (his version of that, anyway) and he's gonna do what he has to do in order to make sure that vision happens.
I agree. He's like a super Charles Bronson with other awesome characters mixed in with that. He will totally go get his killing on. For me though, as I mentioned above, what is so interesting about it is: what leads him to make those choices? I mean, who is preposterously powerful and old. He is older than most Elves have ever lived at over 1,000 years old. The affect of that kind of life on the human psyche, must be impossible to understand, which is why I want to understand it. I really wonder if someone is still really "human" after his life, to that point. Everything he has done has transcended human potential. He's done things that cannot be matched, or experienced by but maybe a handful of people, such as Halaster, Elminster, the Simbul, etc. It's so disconnected from the experiences of Realms humans (even super powerful ones), it is mind boggling.
Anyhow, great post. I appreciate it! :)
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
958 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2020 : 11:49:03
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Back to the original topic about funding, I concur the lion's share of funding comes through members' contributions, whether from commercial enterprises or outright donations. The Harpers are definitely not some standing army, so members have to be self-sufficient to some extent.
The penchant for secrecy and manipulation discourages violence except as a last resort. Therefore, I expect the "kill the enemies and grab their stuff" is at best an incidental form of funding.
Now About Recruitment
As far as recruitment is concerned, my understanding is prospective members go through often unknown surveillance and probation -easily for months - before being approached by a Harper. The Harpers come to you, not the other way around.
This surveillance should be kept in mind should a new member decide to do some freelance recruiting or assigning missions. After all, the new member must wonder how long has he or she been watched, and more importantly, does monitoring stop when a member is inducted. *Insert canned laugh track* It is possible to deceive the senior Harpers, but it sure is expensive in terms of time, effort and money to do so.
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Edited by - Delnyn on 25 Nov 2020 11:50:02 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2020 : 13:50:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
Back to the original topic about funding, I concur the lion's share of funding comes through members' contributions, whether from commercial enterprises or outright donations. The Harpers are definitely not some standing army, so members have to be self-sufficient to some extent.
There are likely a fair number of businesses and such owned by retired Harpers or Harper allies, to help with the funding.
One of the things suggested earlier was Harpers taking over enterprises run by bad guys, just to exploit them as a funding source -- allowing whatever the bad guys were doing to keep happening. While I very strongly disagree with this idea, I'm sure that more than a few businesses once owned/operated by various bad guys wound up in Harper hands once those bad guys were discovered and dealt with. Not, as stated earlier, to let the operation continue whilst milking it dry -- instead, being more of a corporate takeover, where the legitimate business continues as before, and the unseen activities are either stopped or entirely re directed.So a business that ran as a front for slavers would continue its legitimate operations, but the slave operations would end. It might become a stop on an underground railroad, or it might just become a legit business and nothing else. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2020 : 14:21:59
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Yeah, but if these fake Harpers are not telling people that they're Harpers, then what's the point? They can't tell real Harpers and they aren't telling non-Harpers, so there's no benefit.
Besides, I'm sure there's certain requirements, within the group, for who can and can't recruit people.
And with it being canon that false Harpers are hunted down, then it's clear that not only is membership tracked, but that they also keep their ears to the ground... This is especially easy given the heavy presence of bards in the group.
I guess I'm not explaining it well. This is the idea I was thinking of for the fake harpers. The "fake harpers" that are doing the good deeds don't realize they're "fake harpers". They have someone above them that's pointing at targets and saying "yeah, that's a bad person, go get them and bring back their goods". Essentially, they believe that they are harpers, they hide who they are because they're told to do so, and they take out targets and return money to a person or persons that they fully believe is the harper leadership. The benefit is that this fake leadership has got dupes running around taking out targets for them and stealing their goods, and these "do-gooders" are also not inclined to reveal who is leading them out of misguided loyalty if they're caught.
On the second scenario of someone actually within the harpers misusing their role, they can recruit people and not tell the people above them. This is a little harder to do, since this leadership will be watched more. At the same time, the secrecy within the harpers themselves lends them to this exact kind of subterfuge. If they don't have a defined structure, it becomes very hard to do what is said to be done when it come to tracking their membership. Its a thing where one of their strengths (flexibility) is also one of their weaknesses as a result. When they DO find someone abusing their power, it seems like they go overboard to punish them (like what was done to Finder), but I'm not convinced that they actually have a good internal policing force.
BTW, on the second scenario... the idea that "only certain people in the harpers will be allowed to recruit" is very hard to control given their methods of recruitment. Literally what they do is find someone, hand them a pin, and then tell them "you can be a harper, but don't talk to anyone but me until I feel you've learned enough and I'll introduce you to others". The harper leadership can't control who is handing out pins, and the average person isn't going to know if they don't have a real harper pin. So if a brand new person is recruited into the harpers, they could in theory start recruiting people under them without telling anyone by just handing out pins. This can get really interesting if other groups like the twisted rune or knights of the shield start infiltrating the harpers.
To use terms from espionage, the first instance is called a false flag recruitment. The second one COULD be termed a mole since that would be a deep cover operation. Now, that person could either syphon those funds for himself (which would be more of a rogue agent) or for some other organization (a textbook mole). |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2020 : 14:33:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
Back to the original topic about funding, I concur the lion's share of funding comes through members' contributions, whether from commercial enterprises or outright donations. The Harpers are definitely not some standing army, so members have to be self-sufficient to some extent.
The penchant for secrecy and manipulation discourages violence except as a last resort. Therefore, I expect the "kill the enemies and grab their stuff" is at best an incidental form of funding.
Now About Recruitment
As far as recruitment is concerned, my understanding is prospective members go through often unknown surveillance and probation -easily for months - before being approached by a Harper. The Harpers come to you, not the other way around.
This surveillance should be kept in mind should a new member decide to do some freelance recruiting or assigning missions. After all, the new member must wonder how long has he or she been watched, and more importantly, does monitoring stop when a member is inducted. *Insert canned laugh track* It is possible to deceive the senior Harpers, but it sure is expensive in terms of time, effort and money to do so.
You assume here that everyone "follows the rules". I can guarantee you, for instance, that the places where I work say things like "you cannot use the web for personal business"... and they even do it in writing... and I guarantee there's not a single person working there, even the ones that wrote that policy, that follow it. There are even tools out there tracking where everyone goes into logs, but there's not the manpower to actually review them in 99.9% of businesses unless a problem arises. Similarly, there are always individuals in any industry who know how to "walk the walk" enough that people THINK they're doing the right thing. Meanwhile, on the side they're pulling shenanigans. I wouldn't be surprised if the methods of recruitment SAY that they will spend lots of time reviewing things, but in reality, we have to question if the harpers would actually have the resources to be watching all these villains AND hunting down people and thoroughly vetting them. I honestly can't see it happening. They are much too disorganized for that level of cohesion. Especially when you get down to the lower echelons, the scrutiny upon them is going to be next to nil because there quite simply are always more "indians" than "chiefs". Sure, handfuls may get caught, and when they do, they probably propagandize it to put the fear of harper leadership into folks.... but unless for every low level agent they've got fives times as many people watching said low level agent... its not going to work.... and if all they're doing is watching each other, then you've got basically Germany during the time when the wall was up going on... and that's not what the harpers are portrayed as. I would sooner buy that they're not quite as vigilant as they portray themselves, but generally good hearted, versus believing that they're THAT paranoid and watchful of one another that they'll catch someone who steps out of line. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2020 : 14:35:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
Back to the original topic about funding, I concur the lion's share of funding comes through members' contributions, whether from commercial enterprises or outright donations. The Harpers are definitely not some standing army, so members have to be self-sufficient to some extent.
There are likely a fair number of businesses and such owned by retired Harpers or Harper allies, to help with the funding.
One of the things suggested earlier was Harpers taking over enterprises run by bad guys, just to exploit them as a funding source -- allowing whatever the bad guys were doing to keep happening. While I very strongly disagree with this idea, I'm sure that more than a few businesses once owned/operated by various bad guys wound up in Harper hands once those bad guys were discovered and dealt with. Not, as stated earlier, to let the operation continue whilst milking it dry -- instead, being more of a corporate takeover, where the legitimate business continues as before, and the unseen activities are either stopped or entirely re directed.So a business that ran as a front for slavers would continue its legitimate operations, but the slave operations would end. It might become a stop on an underground railroad, or it might just become a legit business and nothing else.
If the Harper agents tend to work on their own or in small groups, what about just self funding for those in the field? "Go take out the group of bandits terrorizing this area. You can keep any loot you get." If there is any shortfall, they can just head to the nearest temple of one of the supporting gods for some help.
Station chiefs (the guys that direct agents or groups of agents) very likely have a cover so that could be used to support themselves with the occasional influx of cash from the higher ups when needed. they would also be the ones that would run the newly "clean" operations.
People higher up in the organization who are too busy to have a "normal job/persona" would need their daily needs supported by the organization. That sounds like the people that would be helped by the investments and other sources of income. They would also be the ones to foot the bill for any large expenditures and would likely just be the ones to reimburse any temple that had to make a large outlay to agents (say for bribes). |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Edited by - TheIriaeban on 25 Nov 2020 14:45:35 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2020 : 15:19:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
Back to the original topic about funding, I concur the lion's share of funding comes through members' contributions, whether from commercial enterprises or outright donations. The Harpers are definitely not some standing army, so members have to be self-sufficient to some extent.
There are likely a fair number of businesses and such owned by retired Harpers or Harper allies, to help with the funding.
One of the things suggested earlier was Harpers taking over enterprises run by bad guys, just to exploit them as a funding source -- allowing whatever the bad guys were doing to keep happening. While I very strongly disagree with this idea, I'm sure that more than a few businesses once owned/operated by various bad guys wound up in Harper hands once those bad guys were discovered and dealt with. Not, as stated earlier, to let the operation continue whilst milking it dry -- instead, being more of a corporate takeover, where the legitimate business continues as before, and the unseen activities are either stopped or entirely re directed.So a business that ran as a front for slavers would continue its legitimate operations, but the slave operations would end. It might become a stop on an underground railroad, or it might just become a legit business and nothing else.
Just to throw out there, they might also keep those businesses running, in hopes of "catching a bigger fish". We see this in a lot of cop movies where they allow low level illegal businesses to function, sometimes even aiding these operations, in order to catch the people above them. Not sure how often it might occur or how profitable it might be, but its definitely a possibility. That being said, I see this MORE as something that Khelben's Moonstars would do, and a discussion around this kind of thing might be a good way to differentiate the two groups better. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 25 Nov 2020 15:45:08 |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2020 : 15:57:27
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
Back to the original topic about funding, I concur the lion's share of funding comes through members' contributions, whether from commercial enterprises or outright donations. The Harpers are definitely not some standing army, so members have to be self-sufficient to some extent.
There are likely a fair number of businesses and such owned by retired Harpers or Harper allies, to help with the funding.
One of the things suggested earlier was Harpers taking over enterprises run by bad guys, just to exploit them as a funding source -- allowing whatever the bad guys were doing to keep happening. While I very strongly disagree with this idea, I'm sure that more than a few businesses once owned/operated by various bad guys wound up in Harper hands once those bad guys were discovered and dealt with. Not, as stated earlier, to let the operation continue whilst milking it dry -- instead, being more of a corporate takeover, where the legitimate business continues as before, and the unseen activities are either stopped or entirely re directed.So a business that ran as a front for slavers would continue its legitimate operations, but the slave operations would end. It might become a stop on an underground railroad, or it might just become a legit business and nothing else.
Just to throw out there, they might also keep those businesses running, in hopes of "catching a bigger fish". We see this in a lot of cop movies where they allow low level illegal businesses to function, sometimes even aiding these operations, in order to catch the people above them. Not sure how often it might occur or how profitable it might be, but its definitely a possibility. That being said, I see this MORE as something that Khelben's Moonstars would do, and a discussion around this kind of thing might be a good way to differentiate the two groups better.
There are several references of Harpers infiltrating thieves' guilds before they take them out so this may be a standard practice. Within reason since I could see the Harpers interfering with assassinations right off the bat. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2020 : 06:28:13
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I must comment that I'm a little amused by this scroll.
When I first offered my anti-Harper criticisms one decade ago they were met with polite silence and dismissal. The deeds and legends (and methods) of the Harpers were nigh-unassailable.
Now, after the passage of years, the scribes of Candlekeep seem eager to embrace notions of unwelcome and unsavoury Harper activities. Willing to see the tarnished dirt layered upon (and under) the surface of the Harpers' silvered reputation. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2020 : 07:09:38
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| I've been wanting to run a Zhent/Cult of The Dragon/other group of nasty bad's has been secretly infiltrating the Harpers for years, to bring them down from the inside plot. Kinda like Hydra and Shield in the MCU. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
Edited by - Brimstone on 26 Nov 2020 07:10:14 |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2020 : 08:26:53
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Great Reader Ayrik,
Well, if I had been on here when you made that initial post, I would have been all over it. However, I joined in 2013.
To be clear, I think the Harper's are compelling as an organization. They are, however, even more interesting with all of the stuff that's been discussed herein because it suspends disbelief, at least for me. :)
It even possibly sets up a great redemption story. ;)
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
958 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2020 : 13:13:23
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Do not be too surprised if the Harper's reputation with Faerun's citizens was never so sterling in the first place. After all, Toril is not Earth, and its people have a different daily experience with Harpers...and one that is often far more personal and direct.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I must comment that I'm a little amused by this scroll.
When I first offered my anti-Harper criticisms one decade ago they were met with polite silence and dismissal. The deeds and legends (and methods) of the Harpers were nigh-unassailable.
Now, after the passage of years, the scribes of Candlekeep seem eager to embrace notions of unwelcome and unsavoury Harper activities. Willing to see the tarnished dirt layered upon (and under) the surface of the Harpers' silvered reputation.
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
877 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2020 : 13:40:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I must comment that I'm a little amused by this scroll.
When I first offered my anti-Harper criticisms one decade ago they were met with polite silence and dismissal. The deeds and legends (and methods) of the Harpers were nigh-unassailable.
Now, after the passage of years, the scribes of Candlekeep seem eager to embrace notions of unwelcome and unsavoury Harper activities. Willing to see the tarnished dirt layered upon (and under) the surface of the Harpers' silvered reputation.
Didn't check the dates of the original discussion but for me, looking at it from the Lands of Intrigue, the Harpers are just a good-ish spy network, with bigger backers than most other cloak societies. Actually all the backing that they have most of the times lessens their achivements if compared with those of other clandestine or semi-clandestine groups.
The novel The Alabaster Staff, if I remember correctly, has a very realistic portrayal of what an hardcore Harper Agent might look like to someone that's not been steeped in the Harpers propaganda of the North and the Dalelands.
I think it's quite logic to call into question some of their methods but always keep in mind that at the end of the day, the best way to stop the big bad evil from destroying the town/nation/world is to stab it until it stops moving (and then some more). And that's what Harpers do, which makes them clearly do-gooders in my book. Clandestine, disagreeable, smug, entitled and with questionable practices from time to time, but do-gooders nonetheless. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2020 : 00:27:26
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Erin Evans portrays the intricacies of the Harper network really well in her Brimstone Angels novels.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2020 : 08:09:36
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Senior Scribe Delnyn,
Great point regarding the difference in cultures and attitudes towards the Harper's. I can see some places dealing ok with the subterfuge, etc., and other places being extremely frustrated with it. For example, in Cormyr, I can imagine that the Wyvernspur family likely had some pretty harsh things to say once they found out what happened to Finder, which was way over the top.
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2020 : 23:37:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I must comment that I'm a little amused by this scroll.
When I first offered my anti-Harper criticisms one decade ago they were met with polite silence and dismissal. The deeds and legends (and methods) of the Harpers were nigh-unassailable.
Now, after the passage of years, the scribes of Candlekeep seem eager to embrace notions of unwelcome and unsavoury Harper activities. Willing to see the tarnished dirt layered upon (and under) the surface of the Harpers' silvered reputation.
-It's been a crazy ten years. A global recessions, worldwide revolution, a pandemic now, and we're all sick of the bullshit. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerûn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerûn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Where do the Harpers get their Funding?
