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MadRat
Acolyte
Russia
9 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Dec 2005 : 23:32:59
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After the fall of Netheril magic was changed by Mystra.
She forbade all spells beyond 9 level. I always wondered: why she forbade even 10 and 11 level spell if the Karsus Avatar was 12 level and there is no 10 or 11 level spells that can harm a god?
And, even if limiting the magic to 9 level is seems somehow logical, why did Mystra changed the way wizard cast spells, so instead of simply taking the spell from the Weave, spells must be memorized first? For me, it just natural: if a wizard need to fly, he cast the spell and fly, and don't say: "I can't fly today, I memorized fireball".  And why did Mystra take away cantras from the common people?
Is there some real cause for Mystra to do so or she just decided it will be that way for no obvious reason other then make the life of the wizard much more difficult?
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The sword of truth is forged by the hammer of reason. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4702 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2005 : 00:05:09
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IIRC even lower level spells could harm some deities then level 9, the blocking of 10th plus was more likely a design descion explained with descriptive text to support the rule change. Which of course has now been bypassed with Epic spell casting, that can result in much higher then 12th level spells. Different people deciding what is good for the game and what might unbalence the game.
Unless I missed something special to FR, the Wizard always had to select the spell in advance to cast should s/he decide to cast it. The Sor, (new) Bard, Favored Soul are the only classes that can cast any spell they know as oposed to having selected them in advance though study (that I recall at this time, some of the PrC might also provide such casting).
Nor do I recall common, non Wizards being able to cast cantras in prior editions. I do recall some 2nd options books that might have expanded use of magic, just do not recall them well. By the time most (if not all) could cast a 0 level spell they were not likely considered common people any more. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6688 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2005 : 00:37:24
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All the questions you pose relate to the simple fact that game designers were trying to make connections and links between the rules of the particular game edition at the time and flavor particular to the Realms.
Much of the blame rests at the feet of the designer Dale "Slade" Henson who thought that just because he was designing an "Arcane Age" product set in ancient Netheril, that he could add to and augment the wizard spell system in place at the time. Therefore, not only did we get 10-12th level spells, but we also got different methods of casting arcane and divine magic.
These aspects of Netheril never sat well with 'present-day' (i.e. standard 2nd-Edition rules) games at the time, and have struggled when adapted in a 3E framework. Slade introduced the concept of higher than 9th level spells as being available only in Faerūn's ancient past. The "Mystra forbidding" such spells explanation was created to separate gaming in Arcane Age settings (like Netheril and Cormanthyr) with 'present-day' gaming (i.e. in the 1370s DR). The idea was that the rules were separate and not really to be used together - you either played in the present, or you played in the past and the rules for both those eras had no crossover or interaction.
Naturally, that guideline didn't account for the curiousity, initiative and unfettered desire to to 'everything' that most gamers exhibit. My feeling would be that nothing peeves a gamer more in D&D than being told he "can't" do X, Y & Z. The whole idea of roleplaying games is that you can do 'anything' - so restrictions never sit too well. Especially when they are jury-rigged constructs spanning multiple game editions and sub-settings.
As such, the simplified answer to your questions is, "Because we (the game designers) say so." and "It's much neater this way. Really."
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2005 : 01:47:10
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Good points.
The story reason is that the Neth had come to abuse magic to such an extent (Karsus wasn't the only Neth who would do what he did, he was just the first who was powerful enough to) that they had proven themselves utterly unfit to weild magic over 10th level. Also, the Weave was damaged due to Karsus' attempt (resulting in the penalties on High Magic), so the cantra-stripping was perhaps a way of decreasing the magic use so that the Weave could heal. It also had the effect of keeping magic from seeming too "common place," the way it was in Netheril.
The design reason is simple: there weren't 10th+ spells in 2e, and there were in Arcane Age. Somehow they had to go away, and the rise of a new goddess of magic gave the possibility of divine fiat. The easiest way of reconciling the two times was to say that the new Mystra banned the spells outright.
Note that in the Netheril box it's just said that the spells were banned. It wasn't until much later (Secrets of the Magister, if I remember correctly) that the "well, she didn't *ban* them, so much as change their formulas so you have to re-research them" thread appeared.
What's left unstated is where this left the elves, the only other spellcasting race with access to 10th+ spells. They had proven themselves capable to weilding that power responsibly (we can argue about their use of High Magic), so there was no reason for them to lose access to such "mighty magics." It's implied that they lost access as well, though I've used that vagueness in my games to rule that they in fact didn't and that any elf of sufficient level can cast 10th and 11th level spells. But that's approaching the realm of house-rule, and therefore doesn't belong here. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Bluenose
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
134 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2005 : 10:21:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
What's left unstated is where this left the elves, the only other spellcasting race with access to 10th+ spells. They had proven themselves capable to weilding that power responsibly (we can argue about their use of High Magic), so there was no reason for them to lose access to such "mighty magics." It's implied that they lost access as well, though I've used that vagueness in my games to rule that they in fact didn't and that any elf of sufficient level can cast 10th and 11th level spells. But that's approaching the realm of house-rule, and therefore doesn't belong here.
I'd have to say that the idea that elves used magic responsibly looks like elven propaganda to me. It may be that they do now, but when their kingdoms were the major powers in Western Faerun they did massive damage to the landscape; just think of the High Moor where Miyeritar stood, the magic that raised Evermeet and drowned the Ilythiiri cities, their use of Mythals in war, and so on. Perhaps the fact that they did those things made them realise that there were limits, but it's a bit hypocritical to do those things and then expect humans to show more restraint than they did.
Purely on the rules question, I'm fairly certain that the elves who could cast 10th level spells at the time of the fall of Netheril retained the ability, but that gradually as they died other elves had to use the "Epic" spells that human mages learnt. I think it might have been discussed in Cormanthyr, but I'm not certain about that. |
These, in the day when heaven was falling,
The hour when earth's foundations fled,
Followed their mercenary calling
And took their wages and are dead.
Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
They stood, and earth's foundations stay;
What God abandoned, these defended,
And saved the sum of things for pay. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2005 : 15:37:03
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I think, in the context of this discussion, that "responsibly" means "didn't try to become gods and muck up the Weave." And, unless I'm mistaken, Mystra doesn't have the High Magic portfolio, Corellon does. Most of what you mentioned was High Magic, not 10th or 11th spells.
A couple of nitpicks in your examples: mythals were never used in war, they're kind of stationary things. And the mess that surrounded the creation of Evermeet was a mistake, not malicious intent.
However, I'm not arguing that the elves haven't used High Magic in war. Miyeritar and Jhaamdath both were destroyed by various rituals, and there may be more. However, this was all in *High Magic* not 10th+ spells.
On a side note, I'd love to see what some of the 10th and 11th level elven spells from those glory days looked like. We only have two or three examples of 10th level spells and none of 11th, so it may be that I'm mistaken and they did have such monstrous spells in their arsenal. However, since they've never been described, we have to say they don't exist. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2005 : 15:51:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
...unless I'm mistaken, Mystra doesn't have the High Magic portfolio, Corellon does...
...And the mess that surrounded the creation of Evermeet was a mistake, not malicious intent.
Correlon does have that portfolio but Mystra has total control of the weave, so even if Correlon wants to allow spells of that magnitude, Mystra can still deny them.
Also, not having "malicious intent" does not make ones actions responsible. The fact that it was a mistake actually suggests irresponsibility, they didn't fully understand the power of the magic before using it...that's not exactly what I call responsible.
The thought that elves are more responsible with magic is an idea held by elves, who tend to be a little on the arrogant side. If you read Elminster in Myth Drannor it is pretty apparent that El feels there isn't much difference between elves and men after all in terms of how they squabble and lust for power. |
Edited by - Chosen of Bane on 19 Dec 2005 15:52:36 |
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Bluenose
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
134 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2005 : 13:26:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
I think, in the context of this discussion, that "responsibly" means "didn't try to become gods and muck up the Weave." And, unless I'm mistaken, Mystra doesn't have the High Magic portfolio, Corellon does. Most of what you mentioned was High Magic, not 10th or 11th spells.
What would be the difference between High Magic and 10+ level spells when both could be cast? Is it just that 10th level spells are easier to cast and don't need as much research? From the point of view of the people affected it wouldn't make much difference.
quote:
A couple of nitpicks in your examples: mythals were never used in war, they're kind of stationary things. And the mess that surrounded the creation of Evermeet was a mistake, not malicious intent.
If I'm remembering correctly, in the second book of the Lost Mythal trilogy there is a conversation between Sarya and the devil who's teaching her mythal use in which the devil claims he can teach her to use mythals offensively. It may be a lie, or it might be something that the elves never learnt, but it suggests the possibility exists.
As for the intent, I don't believe Karsus meant to do the amount of damage he did, but that doesn't mean we should excuse him.
quote:
However, I'm not arguing that the elves haven't used High Magic in war. Miyeritar and Jhaamdath both were destroyed by various rituals, and there may be more. However, this was all in *High Magic* not 10th+ spells.
On a side note, I'd love to see what some of the 10th and 11th level elven spells from those glory days looked like. We only have two or three examples of 10th level spells and none of 11th, so it may be that I'm mistaken and they did have such monstrous spells in their arsenal. However, since they've never been described, we have to say they don't exist.
There are some 10-12 level spells described in the Arcane Age supplements, which are or were available for download from the Wizards site. I'm pretty sure that elven spellcasters would have versions of most of them.
And I agree with Chosen of Bane when he says that it's mostly elves who think they are the responsible ones when it comes to magic use. If they are, they learnt it the hard way. |
These, in the day when heaven was falling,
The hour when earth's foundations fled,
Followed their mercenary calling
And took their wages and are dead.
Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
They stood, and earth's foundations stay;
What God abandoned, these defended,
And saved the sum of things for pay. |
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MadRat
Acolyte
Russia
9 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2005 : 23:06:55
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
These aspects of Netheril never sat well with 'present-day' (i.e. standard 2nd-Edition rules) games at the time, and have struggled when adapted in a 3E framework. Slade introduced the concept of higher than 9th level spells as being available only in Faerūn's ancient past. The "Mystra forbidding" such spells explanation was created to separate gaming in Arcane Age settings (like Netheril and Cormanthyr) with 'present-day' gaming (i.e. in the 1370s DR). The idea was that the rules were separate and not really to be used together - you either played in the present, or you played in the past and the rules for both those eras had no crossover or interaction.
My questions is about the campaign world, not about stacking the rules. "Netheril: Empire of Magic" is the most comprehensive source of information about Netheril. And it describes entirely different magic system, not memorize, but number of "arcs", much like the psionics in D&D 3.5. Was that system part of the Realms past or it was some game designer's mistake? If someone ask one of the survived netherese (Larloch, Iolaum or Telamont Tanthul, for example): "What was the magic in the days of the Netheril?" will they remember about that change of the magic? And if yes, who (in the realms, not in the real world) made that change? I suppose, Mystra. And for that sake it was done? I think, this is not detailed in books, but because this question is important for my campaign, I must find some logical answer. Or, if that book was made not by people who designed the present day of the Realms and there is no real reasons in the campaign world for such a change of magic, maybe I should simply forget about that magic system and say that wizards was the same in Netheril and in present Realms. |
The sword of truth is forged by the hammer of reason. |
Edited by - MadRat on 20 Dec 2005 23:09:35 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36963 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2005 : 00:03:41
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quote:
Originally posted by MadRat
If someone ask one of the survived netherese (Larloch, Iolaum or Telamont Tanthul, for example): "What was the magic in the days of the Netheril?" will they remember about that change of the magic? And if yes, who (in the realms, not in the real world) made that change? I suppose, Mystra. And for that sake it was done? I think, this is not detailed in books, but because this question is important for my campaign, I must find some logical answer. Or, if that book was made not by people who designed the present day of the Realms and there is no real reasons in the campaign world for such a change of magic, maybe I should simply forget about that magic system and say that wizards was the same in Netheril and in present Realms.
Mystra 1 made the change, because it protected both magic in general (which failed, briefly, when Karsus cast his Ultimate Mistake spell) and herself (and other deities, by extension).
I'd say that anyone that survived the interruption in the flow of magic would be aware of the change, for multiple reasons:
1) In the comics, when the Time of Troubles happened and magic went awry, Dwalimar Omen was aware of magic working differently after everything was done.
2) Also in the ToT, psionics changed. In one of the RAS novels, we saw psionicists who knew psionics had changed, and who still had their psionic abilities, but who were frantically trying to rediscover how to access those powers.
3) There is no mention of people's memories being rewritten after Mystryl's death and Mystra's birth. It wouldn't have affected Telamont, anyway, since he and his people were gone before the Fall happened. When they returned the first time, they surely would have noticed that things were different (and not just the absence of Netheril). |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6688 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2005 : 01:00:27
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My view is that, as of 3E, there wasn't an entirely different magic system (ala 'arcs' etc.), just the spellcasting sytem we have now with the provision for higher than 9th level non-metamagicked spells (10-12) which applied only before -339 DR. You have to separate the rules from the realmslore. The realmslore says that the Netherese mastered heights of spellhurling that exceeded the maximums cast today (i.e. higher than 9th level spells that weren't epic spells). The game machanics in the Netheril boxed set show you a way to play this in D&D if you are playing an Arcane Age 2E game. Unless you are playing a game of this type, then the stuff about 'arcs' and the rules for the spellcasting sytem showcased in the Netheril boxed set are superceded by the edition change to 3E. So, if you asked Larloch and Telamont 'how' they cast spells back before the Fall they'll reply "The way we always have." And then they'll kill you.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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The change of magic after the fall of Netheril
