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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Dec 2005 : 14:18:57
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I've always had a problem with RAS' major female characters, but I haven't been able to quite put a finger on why. I think Rinonalyrna Fathomlin has put it in words for me:
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There is also a disconnect between what RAS says about her and how she acts. We are TOLD that Cattie-brie is wise, compassionate, caring, understanding, etc. And in spite of all that glowing praise, she rarely ever seems to act that way.
That's the problem I have both with her and Danica. They're repeatedly described as wise, understanding, and oh, musn't forget strong and independent. (I'm pretty sure Danica, at least, has been described in precisely these last two terms. I consider both of them to be codependent nitwits, if anything, and rather immature at that (so not all that "wise and understanding"). They are very much female Designated Love Interests, and it's so painfully obvious that they exist simply to fill that role, rather than exist as real, living, breathing people on their own right. Where are their personal ambitions and desires that don't involve being googly-eyed at Drizzt and Cadderly, respectively? Where are the lives they lead outside of interacting with their romantic partners?
I think that this is a common mistake in a great deal of fiction: if a woman can hold her own in a fight, she fulfills the requirement of being a "strong female character", when that's hardly the case. You can be strong without ever lifting a weapon or slashing an orc to bits (hell, you can be a pacifist and still be strong). Strength of character and personality has nothing to do with martial ability -- a fact that many authors, especially fantasy authors who feel the obligation to have "strong female characters", seem to disregard. |
Edited by - Winterfox on 19 Dec 2005 14:40:12 |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2005 : 15:19:05
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Uh oh, Winterfox, this sounds like the same road you took on RAS' board. At least here he's not going to kick you off. 
I agree with you - the characters don't seem to have any purpose outside of a) confounding their love interests with random actions b) ogling them with adoring eyes, and c) being another tank in the party to help kill the hordes of goblins and orcs RAS has sent to slaughter over the years.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2005 : 16:56:32
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quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
Uh oh, Winterfox, this sounds like the same road you took on RAS' board. At least here he's not going to kick you off.
Eh, so long that it's understood that I comment on the writing, rather than the writer. This is no more or less harsh than when I tear apart fanfiction posted here. |
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2005 : 17:07:21
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reminds himself not to submit any writing to Winterfox
Seriously, I see your point though about how the women are portrayed. I guess, being a guy, I never really thought about it. My question though is this, are there any male authors that do a fair job of portraying women as independant characters?
When I read your post the person that came to mind was Arilyn Moonblade and Queen Amluruil Moonflower (spelling?) but both of them are written by a female author.
-sorry if I got off topic  - |
Edited by - Chosen of Bane on 19 Dec 2005 17:08:05 |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2005 : 17:57:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Bane
Seriously, I see your point though about how the women are portrayed. I guess, being a guy, I never really thought about it. My question though is this, are there any male authors that do a fair job of portraying women as independant characters?
Sure.
Cersei, Daenerys (George R. R. Martin)
Mara Jade Skywalker (Timothy Zahn; I don't read SW novels by any other author. I was going to pick up the New Jedi Order, but the first book's by RAS, so I'd rather not waste my time or money)
Door, Death, Thessalian, among others (Neil Gaiman)
Granny Weatherwax, Agnes Nitt, Susan Sto Helit (Terry Pratchett)
Jessica Atreides, Ghanima Atreides (Frank Herbert)
Notice that quite a few of these women haven ever picked up a weapon or cast a single destructive spell in their lives (Cersei, Agnes). I don't even define "independence" by being single/without offspring (Cersei's in love with Jaime, and Jessica with Duke Leto; both of them are fiercely protective of their sons). Some of them are relatively mild-mannered and not ravishing beauties (something so many supposed "strong female characters" are), such as Agnes (who's overweight). If it had been made certain that the poets were male, I'd have brought up quite a few women from Old Norse verses, too. |
Edited by - Winterfox on 19 Dec 2005 17:58:09 |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2005 : 19:22:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
[quote] I was going to pick up the New Jedi Order, but the first book's by RAS, so I'd rather not waste my time or money)
That, my friend, is a HUGE mistake. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2005 : 19:36:09
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| Why? To begin with, I'm more interested in the Old Republic era (Exar Kun! Qel-Droma! The Sunrider women! KotOR! Wheee). And what I've heard about Vector Prime from SW readers whom I trust hasn't been exactly positive. (No, their complaints weren't simply that he killed off a major character. They complained about his writing and the lack of SW feel. How true it is, I don't know, but I'd rather read authors I actually like before I touch another RAS novel.) |
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Deverien Valandil
Seeker
73 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2005 : 20:24:44
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
[quote] I was going to pick up the New Jedi Order, but the first book's by RAS, so I'd rather not waste my time or money)
That, my friend, is a HUGE mistake.
Eh, I wouldn't say that. Sure, some parts of the series were okay, and the Yuuzhan Vong were interesting enough in their own right, but most of the series didn't really click with me. What I didn't like was the fact that the whole thing was about twice as long as it should have been; I had the impression that many of the stories were either repetitive or drawn out longer than they should have been.
Okay, enough of that.
To keep the thread on topic: I grew so sick of the will-they/won't-they relationship between Drizzt and Cattie-Brie. I guess it's fine that they're 'together' now, but my interest in the matter petered out many books ago.
EDIT: I was originally going to say something about Entreri and the female characters in Promise of the Witch-King, but I guess I ought to save that for a future character study thread. |
Edited by - Deverien Valandil on 19 Dec 2005 20:25:53 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2005 : 03:03:36
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Winterfox, sometimes I definately don't see eye to eye with you, but I must concur regarding your opinions of Catti-brie and Danica. In fact, I'm not really likely to post a Danica Character Study anytime soon because she seems, to me, like Catti-brie with less personality. But, as I cited earlier, I don't think its RAS lack of ability to write female characters that is the problem. I actually liked Shoudra, for example. I think its that when he decides to make a female character a lead character, he is so worried about showing that she is equal to the males and holding her own, and rather than show that she holds her own by having her own unique place in the story, he tries to show it in that she is the equal, litterally, of the males, in every aspect. Which means she will have to fight and break things with the best of them. And then by the time they get finished with all of the breaking and killing, there isn't much time left for them to actually come across as caring or wise or loving or whatever. Killing machine first, then we state what personality traits they have, "off camera."
I like the examples you gave with the Sci-fi/Fantasy characters written by males, and without drifting too far off topic, Mara Jade is a perfect example of a butt kicking character that didn't come accross as "natural born killer" one second and then "but she is femine and worth of male attention" the next.
But let me posit this question: If Catti-brie was really well portrayed as a loving mother and wife from the next book on, and she ended up as a caring, support character raising children, but not really adventuring "with the boys" anymore, would it work if it was well done, or has the precedent been set already? Has she been the warrior woman too long to make a convincing transition back? |
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2005 : 03:44:42
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
But let me posit this question: If Catti-brie was really well portrayed as a loving mother and wife from the next book on, and she ended up as a caring, support character raising children, but not really adventuring "with the boys" anymore, would it work if it was well done, or has the precedent been set already? Has she been the warrior woman too long to make a convincing transition back?
Personaly, I feel that the precedent has been set already. She has already shown that she is happy adventuring with the boys and her "Dwarven Stubborness" would make her likely to do what she likes...adventure and fight. But honestly, I don't think that being a stay at home mom is what's needed to show that she his compassionate, caring, etc.... There are ways to incorporate those personality traits in an adventuring character.
And I think it's important to point out that just because she's a woman does not mean she needs to be compassionate, caring, yada yada yada... but don't say that she is and then have her act in another manner. If her personality description in the books matched the personality she displays in the books we wouldn't be having this discussion, regardless of what personality type that is. |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2005 : 09:40:34
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Winterfox, sometimes I definately don't see eye to eye with you, but I must concur regarding your opinions of Catti-brie and Danica. In fact, I'm not really likely to post a Danica Character Study anytime soon because she seems, to me, like Catti-brie with less personality.
Definitely. The two characters just blur into a single mass for me.
quote:
And then by the time they get finished with all of the breaking and killing, there isn't much time left for them to actually come across as caring or wise or loving or whatever. Killing machine first, then we state what personality traits they have, "off camera."
Thus breaking the fairly rudimentary guideline of "show, not tell." (Which can't be taken literally all the time with, say, minor off-stage events. But things like a character's personality? Er...) I wonder why he doesn't have this problem with his male characters? (I consider quite a few of them to be rather one-dimensional, but at least they have more personality than Catti.)
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Mara Jade is a perfect example of a butt kicking character that didn't come accross as "natural born killer" one second and then "but she is femine and worth of male attention" the next.
She's aggressive and ever so mildly... bitchy, and the good thing is that Zahn doesn't seem to feel obliged to make her seem "worthy of male attention", in this case Luke's.
quote:
But let me posit this question: If Catti-brie was really well portrayed as a loving mother and wife from the next book on, and she ended up as a caring, support character raising children, but not really adventuring "with the boys" anymore, would it work if it was well done, or has the precedent been set already? Has she been the warrior woman too long to make a convincing transition back?
Well... the same thing's done to Danica. I won't say how well done I think it is, because that's neither here nor there, unless you treat her as a Catti clone with more personality. (Oh, wait...) But sure, I think it could work if her psyche's dealt with accordingly. Has she been a Xenarwen all this time because she feels pressured to please her adoptive father and friends? Is raising a family really what she wants? How'd she reconcile the two roles? And so on and so forth.
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Bane
But honestly, I don't think that being a stay at home mom is what's needed to show that she his compassionate, caring, etc.... There are ways to incorporate those personality traits in an adventuring character.
Seconded.
quote:
And I think it's important to point out that just because she's a woman does not mean she needs to be compassionate, caring, yada yada yada... but don't say that she is and then have her act in another manner. If her personality description in the books matched the personality she displays in the books we wouldn't be having this discussion, regardless of what personality type that is.
Exactly. I could't care less if she was a codependent nitwit or a grrl!power icon, so long that she's described honestly and other characters treat/perceive her accordingly. The disparity between what she is, and what she is supposed to be, is startling. It makes me wonder if the other characters are hallucinating.
For that matter, I don't understand why there's a need to describe a character's traits in narrative, especially when the narrative is third-person omniscient -- which is supposed to be the objective reality? Qualifiers like intelligent, strong-willed, independent, and charismatic can be easily shown (and IMO, far more effectively) by letting a character's dialogue or actions speak for themselves. |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2005 : 14:28:54
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I agree - and if Catti-Brie's actions were to speak for themselves, we would come out with a lot different character traits describing her than the ones given.
She is vicious and cruel at moments, but we are supposed to forgive those because she can "so" understand both Drizzt and all the companions. Remember when she defeated the barbarian king? What was up with that? She basically humiliated him with what was NOT the only option to let the barbarians stay. KEJR, I'm beginning to share your opinion of letting Drizzt go off (with Innovindil  ) and let him start as a scout for the Silver Marches.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Milith holder of HB8
Seeker
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2005 : 04:51:42
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| I would say that C-B acts more like a dwarven woman than anything human. Which makes sense mind you. AS for the whole roamnce thing, I think it would be best if she died during pregnency. Nowthat would be more than enough to shatter this group. Drizzt would be off to be alone, Wulfgar...I hardly care. Brunor would become a better king with his halfling stewart to aid him. Better yet, have a Doppleganger (for whatever reason) come and kill her in the form of Drizzt. Then the drow would be forced to leave with his former friends hunting him down like a dog. Then Brunor's allys get in the mix. So basicly where back to the good old days of Drizzt being sad and alone. |
Hey, babe, see my shiny teeth as I smile my very best wolf smile- Ed Greenwood. |
Edited by - Milith holder of HB8 on 26 Dec 2005 05:01:11 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2005 : 05:08:03
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Somehow I doubt that they would beleive that Drizzt would have done it. Ironically, if it turned into Wulfgar and did it, they might buy it. He gets no respect. At any rate, having her die in childbirth either leaves a child to care for, or leaves a dead Catti-brie and a dead baby, and dead baby + dead Catti-brie (and I appologize, because I don't want to sound TOO negative) = an unbearable amount of angst and self pitty in the future journals of Drizzt.
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2005 : 05:24:51
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
At any rate, having her die in childbirth either leaves a child to care for, or leaves a dead Catti-brie and a dead baby, and dead baby + dead Catti-brie (and I appologize, because I don't want to sound TOO negative) = an unbearable amount of angst and self pitty in the future journals of Drizzt.
That's when Stumpet switches her allegiance to Velsharoon and brings them both back for the cheap cost of a 50 gp Onyx....
Gods, isn't that a merry christmas thought |
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Milith holder of HB8
Seeker
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2005 : 05:50:35
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Somehow I doubt that they would beleive that Drizzt would have done it. Ironically, if it turned into Wulfgar and did it, they might buy it. He gets no respect. At any rate, having her die in childbirth either leaves a child to care for, or leaves a dead Catti-brie and a dead baby, and dead baby + dead Catti-brie (and I appologize, because I don't want to sound TOO negative) = an unbearable amount of angst and self pitty in the future journals of Drizzt.
I guess your right, Wulfgar would be much better. That way Drizzt could feel pain on a new level (droping the baby idea). |
Hey, babe, see my shiny teeth as I smile my very best wolf smile- Ed Greenwood. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2005 : 06:04:29
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Heck, I don't care so much about making him feel pain, as to get some inertia involved in moving him out of his rut. I think Drizzt working as a special agent/spy/scout of Alustriel on behalf of the Silver Marches is a much better use of his skills. And ironically, it makes him a bit more important, since he relatively has little impact on the Realms as a whole as Bruenor's buddy, but as Alustriel's Mr. Fixit? That is a life spent doing something worthwile.
I keep wanting to wrench this from Drizzt though, and stay focused on Catti-brie. Its hard though, becuase I really don't see her having much potential beyond being the catalyst to move the storyline beyond where its at now. |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2005 : 06:11:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Bane
That's when Stumpet switches her allegiance to Velsharoon and brings them both back for the cheap cost of a 50 gp Onyx....
Gods, isn't that a merry christmas thought
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Heck, I don't care so much about making him feel pain, as to get some inertia involved in moving him out of his rut. I think Drizzt working as a special agent/spy/scout of Alustriel on behalf of the Silver Marches is a much better use of his skills. And ironically, it makes him a bit more important, since he relatively has little impact on the Realms as a whole as Bruenor's buddy, but as Alustriel's Mr. Fixit? That is a life spent doing something worthwile.
Definitely. His fans tend to have a somewhat skewed idea of his importance (read: not much; he could drop dead one day and most of the Realms wouldn't give a whit, if they even know he exists at all).
quote:
I keep wanting to wrench this from Drizzt though, and stay focused on Catti-brie. Its hard though, becuase I really don't see her having much potential beyond being the catalyst to move the storyline beyond where its at now.
I can't blame you. She's not worth much more than a plot device. I cudgel my brain for something to discuss, and I'm hard pressed to come up with anything new.
Although, am I the only one who finds it slightly creepy that Drizzt knew and played with her when she was a little girl? From Catti-cheese's Catti's perspective, it's probably not so bad, but doesn't he sometimes remember her as a wee lass? |
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Milith holder of HB8
Seeker
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2005 : 06:20:11
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| I have nothing against him that I want him to feel pain, its just that this would allow for him to grow more. In fact, drop the doppleganger idea and just have him really kill her. In front of Drizzt, with him failing to protect her. That would drive a nice nasty wedge between he and her step-dad, would end any hope of the party getting back together and Drizzt would be free to find someone better...that plus Wulgar would be dead. |
Hey, babe, see my shiny teeth as I smile my very best wolf smile- Ed Greenwood. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2005 : 06:21:41
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| That has crossed my mind a few times. I keep trying to think that maybe, though he was good friends with Bruenor, he didn't spend much time with her until she was a least a teenager . . . still creepy that way, but less so. And I know the Crystal Shard doesn't specifically talk about them spending much time together until his service period was done, but just the idea that Catti-brie and Wulfgar both considered themselves Bruenor's "children" made that relationship a bit strange as well, but at least Wulfgar proudly proclaims himself the "son of Beornegar" so that lesses that awkwardness as well. |
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Character Study: Catti-brie (Spoilers)
