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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Dec 2005 : 03:31:47
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I beleive this came up on the Paizo site, and given the main character in Ghostwalker, I was reminded of this particular discussion. Do you guys think that at Mithral weapon should be counted as silver? Is True Silver just a pithy moniker for the metal? Just wanting to get everyone's thoughts on this matter . . .
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2005 : 03:40:30
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I actually had this discussion over on the Wizards site, maybe that's what you're thinking of....
In my games we house ruled that mithril weapons count as silver for the purposes of breaking DR but do not incur the -1 penalty to damage that a normal silver weapon incurs.
We do this for a couple of reasons. The first and foremost reason is because mithril weapons are supported in FR lore (see any novel including clan Battlehammer) and we thought that mithril weapons should be included in our games. Without this rule there is really no reason to have a mithril weapon except for flavor and it's a steep price increase for something that doesn't help game mechanically.
We justify the price increase over silver by saying hey, you don't get that annoying -1 to damage.
We have done this for about a year now in our games and it has not been unbalancing at all. My Dwarven Paladin wielded a mithril war axe and it was great for fighting devils and other fiends with DR silver. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2005 : 03:50:17
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Well, they are also lighter, so that is a bonus as well, but I digress.
Now that I think of it, it may have been your discussion on the Wizards site that I was thinking of.
I think its a reasonable thing to assume, but I would still be interested in seeing if anyone might have established Realmslore references that might support of detract from this assumption, or even if someone can think of anything that I haven't that might make it reasonable to not give them these properties.
And I'm really sorry about not remembering that it was your thread on the Wizards site.
(I think I was confused becuase Paizo is where I found the discussion on what color Adamantine was) |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2005 : 04:58:06
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Err let me check, Elves often used a blade that gave off a blue light (I think this proceeded even _Lord of the Rings_ etc.) that was light in weight and of great danger to "evil" creatures" which of couse included goblins, werewolves (other weres did not exist at the time) orcs (or their prototypes), kobolds or other things that went bump in the night.
The Elven blade was bane to even vampires. All Tolkien did was give the metal of the blade a name.
That said acording to current rules, looking silvery does not grant the silver property when combating DR/Silver foes. It looks close and might scare some because they know silver will hurt them, but in actualy combat they will realise that you wield a false silver blade against them.
Many things can look like gold or silver, some even worth more then silver or gold. For game rules the look does not matter, the metal does. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2005 : 06:28:13
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Do you guys think that at Mithral weapon should be counted as silver?
I think I was confused becuase Paizo is where I found the discussion on what color Adamantine was
1) No because in Magic of Faerun, we have magicially treated silver, which count as silver weapons without the damage penalty that alchemical silver has.
2) That same discussion has been held in the FR portion of the WotC forums too.  |
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2005 : 12:09:26
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
And I'm really sorry about not remembering that it was your thread on the Wizards site.
No need to apologize, I wasn't even the original poster over there. Just the person who brought up this idea. Not a big deal at all.
And onto the rule.
I really do not think there is going to be any realmslore supporting this. There is realmslore supporting Mithril as a weapon type and using a rule like this makes it a viable option for weapons.
Seriously, if you're playing a Dwarf what is a better material (flavor-wise) than mithril for you axe? But without a rule like this it is not cost effective and at a high levels you always want something that is going to break DR's. |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2005 : 14:31:27
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So, then, why would you make a mithril weapon? Makes no sense to me. Just go get you a silvered longsword +1 and kill some lycanthropes.
Actually, I think Mithril is really just used for the armor, as it's lighter qualities are good for keeping movement up and reduced armor check.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Forge
Learned Scribe
USA
218 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2005 : 16:13:08
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Regarding Mithril:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithril
No mention of silver, I'd say that it wouldn't harm silver-vulnerable beings unless you want to attribute it to some inherent special properties that are part of the metal. While this is a bit of a stretch, it would to some degree mirror the adamantine blades of the Drow, which derive special properties from the underdark "emanations". |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2005 : 17:10:03
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quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
So, then, why would you make a mithril weapon? Makes no sense to me. Just go get you a silvered longsword +1 and kill some lycanthropes.
Only 2 reason for a weapon that I am sure of.
A lighter weapon for those that have low Str.
" Mithral has 30 hit points per inch of thickness and hardness 15" which is better then hardness of 10 for Iron or steel.
Of course if there is a creature that has DR #/mithril (non come to mind) this would be a thrid reason. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2005 : 17:17:30
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Well, using just the rules from the SRD then, I can picture perhaps an elven warrior having a Mithril Greatsword so that he can keep moving lightly.
I guess dwarves loaded down with full plate armor, tower shields, waraxes, crossbows, and hammers, might still gets some advantage from this. |
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Forge
Learned Scribe
USA
218 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2005 : 17:48:16
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Well, from someone who has done some re-enactment fighting, a lighter weapon is an advantage no matter your base strength. A strong person can wield a heavier weapon and when they can use the heft to their advantage it's a devastating edge, but that same strong person can whip their weapon around to take advantage of openings that would otherwise pass them by, provided they have a light enough weapon.
Also other things like the ability to retain it's cutting edge, resistance to elements, non-ferrous resistance to rust, hardness (rockwell hardness not D&D hardness) etc... Would make Mithril a superior metal. As well if it blended well, Mithril alloys could really do well. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2005 : 21:42:43
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Yeah, I had wondered this topic myself in the past. In that alternate player's handbook, Arcana Unearthed (I think Monte Cook wrote it), there was a metal that was basically mithril. I remember reading about it and thinking that it was a very neat idea. I am recalling from memory, so I could be wrong on this piece. Basically, I believe his metal made it easier to dual wield weapons (you got an additional +1 to hit when using this type weapon when dual weapon fighting). I think this would be a fine addition to make mithril weapons viable.
I also picked up the everquest player's handbook (what a waste of my cash, but I wanted to see what other D20 systems were doing). The one interesting concept in that system your extra attacks didn't come in always after +5 and +10, and thus a fighter at 20th lvl would get 5 attacks per round (+20/+16/+12/+8/+4) with a light weapon. With a very light weapon it becomes even more attacks (+20/+17/+14/+11/+8/+5/+2). Consequently, very heavy weapons actually slowed down your number of attacks, thus a 20th lvl fighter would still get 4 attacks, but their base attacks on each hit would be less (+20/+14/+8/+2). I really liked the idea, but felt converting all the weapons (and messing with e-tools) would just be a bitch to do. Still, in that system, a mithril greataxe becomes very viable for those people at the upper levels with multiple attacks if it takes it from a heavy weapon to just a medium weapon. (Also, specifically, this systems made more sense when it came to things like rapiers... you got a larger number of attacks, but the damage was lessened to like 1d4). This system opens up too far when you start talking very light weapons (i.e. 5 attacks instead of 4 is one thing...7 is stretching it... especially with sneak attacks and energy dmg and such), but when you keep the spread less it could prove interesting.
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Forge
Learned Scribe
USA
218 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2005 : 21:54:59
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That's interesting, but I'll point out a few points of debate from a game mechanics standpoint.
1)It penalizes higher-end monsters who have natural attacks (physical) as they don't necessarily gain the advantage of increased attacks from lighter weapons.
2) Faster <> better. You sacrifice accuracy and force for speed, even with a lighter weapon.
3) This kind of attack speed modification would perhaps help balance some of the disparity between melees and magic users at higher levels. |
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Beezy
Learned Scribe
USA
280 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2005 : 06:33:21
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| When I played the one campaign that I ever got to play before my brother's crew moved off to college he had something similiar to this issue. It was not Mithril per se but he did have some weapon type of a certain material that was so well crafted that it was given the benefits of a +1 sword only it did not function as a magical weapon. Like it did not affect creatures you needed a magic weapon to hit and so on. i don't remember all the details and the DM was quite prone to handing out power items at a very quick pace and that is a partial reason why the campiagn ended fairly quickly. |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2005 : 07:47:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Beezy
When I played the one campaign that I ever got to play before my brother's crew moved off to college he had something similiar to this issue. It was not Mithril per se but he did have some weapon type of a certain material that was so well crafted that it was given the benefits of a +1 sword only it did not function as a magical weapon. Like it did not affect creatures you needed a magic weapon to hit and so on. i don't remember all the details and the DM was quite prone to handing out power items at a very quick pace and that is a partial reason why the campiagn ended fairly quickly.
That is how Adamantine was in previous editions and in 3.0E |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2005 : 14:23:00
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I think we the plethora of materials already open to us in the DMG and the Arms & Equipment book, there is pretty much a material that does what ever you would like at the time. I like the leafweaves from the A&E guide, it's a neat concept and very wood elven.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2005 : 14:35:38
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quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
I think we the plethora of materials already open to us in the DMG and the Arms & Equipment book, there is pretty much a material that does what ever you would like at the time. I like the leafweaves from the A&E guide, it's a neat concept and very wood elven.
C-Fb
I´m second on that! The A&E Guide give to me some good options to drop in my campaigns... and thanks for remind me of the leafweaves... I´ll check it for my new Silver Marches campaign (when I have an almost "elf team" of pcs.)  |
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Beezy
Learned Scribe
USA
280 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2005 : 15:42:37
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| When a new edition comes out do they have to remake all of the source books? Like when 3E came out did they have to remake all the 2E books like the monster compendium and fighters guide etc? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2005 : 17:07:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Beezy
When a new edition comes out do they have to remake all of the source books? Like when 3E came out did they have to remake all the 2E books like the monster compendium and fighters guide etc?
They don't have to, no... But offering updated material not only saves time for players and DMs, it is a source of money for WotC. |
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Beezy
Learned Scribe
USA
280 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2005 : 20:38:16
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| So they typically re-release most of the source books and update them? |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2005 : 20:42:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Beezy
So they typically re-release most of the source books and update them?
Not exactly. They generally do new sourcebooks on the same themes, but they're not direct updates. If they were, we'd have had a lot more class books, for example. |
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Beezy
Learned Scribe
USA
280 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2005 : 04:13:59
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| Thanks for clearing it up |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2005 : 14:59:18
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Another good byproduct is the fact that they can prune out some of the stuff people weren't too excited about. They could focus on more of the areas where events happen often.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2014 : 21:52:33
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| Another necrothread I'd like to resurrect just to get a few more opinions. Does mithral (mithril) sometimes known as "truesilver" have the same efficacy against lycanthropes as true silver? |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Edited by - Fellfire on 28 Dec 2014 22:58:02 |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2014 : 23:16:37
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| I have never seen any mention of it having such effects, at least in 2e sourcebooks. That includes Volo's Guide to All Things Magical, which is pretty much the definitive source. So my opinion would be no, it does not. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2014 : 22:49:31
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2E lore often commented that mithril ore tended to be found mixed with silver. Volos Guide to All Things Magical suggested that - because of mithrils value and scarcity - mithril items often contained large amounts of silver, platinum, gold, perhaps even steel.
In real world metallurgy, silver is a phenomenally versatile element which readily alloys with many other metals, altering material properties to useful effect. Although, in real world warfare, silver is a poor choice of metal for making medieval arms.
Entirely non-canon ... but I basically treat mithril as equivalent to aluminum when natural (but not supernatural) properties need to be defined. Aluminum can have a shiny, mirror-like, gleaming sheen - comparable to silver - but it still isnt silver. I go with rules-consistency here, since the lore is vague and inconsistent. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 29 Dec 2014 22:57:01 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2014 : 23:21:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
Another necrothread I'd like to resurrect just to get a few more opinions. Does mithral (mithril) sometimes known as "truesilver" have the same efficacy against lycanthropes as true silver?
Well I did not answer in the other one, so this should cover both.
My answer is no.
In part because of answers you have already received.
Main points I would offer.
1) Siver weapons weigh at least twice as much as mithral (mithril) so that even if there was trace elements of silver in such a light blade it does not have same effect as a full silver weapon (over 95 percent silver).
2) Silver is a very malleable weapon and needs constant care to maintain its shape.
3) Lycanthropes' weakness is the element of silver, not an element or alloy that has traces of silver in it.
All in all you can house rule otherwise if you wish.
I would just instead go with a magic blade enchanted. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2014 : 00:21:02
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Per Volo's Guide To All Things Magical, we have this gem: Variscite: Variscite is poisonous to lycanthropes. If mounted on an arrowtip or blade, it triples the damage done by that weapon on its first strike (only) against a particular lycanthrope. (Thereafter, that individual lycanthrope suffers no further damage from variscite contact for one full day.)
Now if you don't want a magic item, and want to use Mithral. I'd have a dwarven or elven forged blade that has crushed crystals or powders of this gem folded into the blade. Doesn't give the extra damage as above, but allows the weapon to hit lycanthropes. |
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2014 : 03:40:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Err let me check, Elves often used a blade that gave off a blue light (I think this proceeded even _Lord of the Rings_ etc.)...
"The Hobbit" (1937) and at least some of "Lord of the Rings" (1937-49) was written before Gary Gygax was born (1938). As for the glowing of blades forged during the 1st Age of Middle Earth in Gondolin:
quote:
Unquestionably the swords of Middle-earth possess mystical powers. Glamdring, Orcrist, and Sting glow when Orcs or Goblins are near. (19) When the Goblins under the Misty Mountains have been whipped into a frenzy by the discovery of Orcrist in the possession of Thorin Oakenshield, Gandalf comes to the rescue of the dwarves with pyrotechnics and sword; Glamdring, we are told, "flashed in the dark by itself. It burned with a rage that made it gleam if goblins were about; now it was bright as blue flame for delight in the killing of the great lord of the cave" (Hobbit 4.72). When Thorin and Gandalf subsequently face their pursuers down, the goblins "came scurrying round the corner in full cry, and found Goblin-cleaver and Foe-hammer shining cold and bright right in their astonished eyes" (4.73). Later, when Bilbo is separated from the dwarves and about to encounter Gollum, he puts his hand to the hilt of his sword and draws it out: "It shone pale and dim before his eyes. 'So it is an elvish blade, too,' he thought; 'and goblins are not very near, and yet not far enough.'" (5.75). In The Fellowship of the Ring, when the Company is trapped in Moria by Orcs, "Glamdring shone with a pale light, and Sting glinted at the edges" (II.v.338); when Gandalf fights the Balrog on the Bridge at Khazad-dum, Glamdring glitters white against the Balrog's flaming red blade (II.v.345). Sting also gleams as Sam fights Shagrat whilst searching for Frodo (VI.i.183). When Aragorn fights at Helm's Deep Anduril, too, "gleam[s] with white fire" (III.vii.139), and it is similarly said to shine when Aragorn draws it prior to embarking on the Paths of the Dead (V.ii.55).
The "cold" used to describe the glow or shine is blue. source
What use is mithral? Ask the person in the eye of the beholder when his +5 vorpal force weapon is rendered a plain sword and whose mail of fortitude are now just links of metal protecting his body. Mithral is more durable but rarer than silver and is more valuable. It is not silver, as many have already pointed out. The core D&D books say it is not. The canon FR books say it is not. Just like Black Gold is not gold and Fool's Gold is not gold, True Silver is not silver. KnightErrantJR, you are correct with your guess that True Silver is a pithy moniker for this metal. |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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Mithral Weapon Properties
