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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Dec 2005 : 20:47:52
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Well met.
I'm slowly working my through Evermeet: Island of Elves and I am wondering where in Faerun "Atorrnash" was located (vis-a-vis "modern" landmarks). I didn't see it on the map of realms in Lost Empires, but that may be because it was primordial by even the standards of Elven realms.
Where were the earliest Elven cities located -- pre-Crown Wars? Were any of them reinhabited by other races after the Elves abandoned them? When does Ascarle (sp?), the sunken city, fit into the time frame of early Elven history?
Which of those ancient cities may be deemed "thoroughly looted" by the 14th century DR, and which are still largely inviolate?
(Again, I haven't finished Evermeet yet, so please post spoiler warnings in replies, as appropriate.)
Thank you for your gracious attention to my queries, O ye learned and wise!
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2005 : 21:06:59
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| Atorrnash is an Ilythiiri city or rather was. A region of jungles and hot forests of southern Faerun (Present Day: Shaar & Forest of Amtar). Exact placement of the city I do not believe has been made. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 03 Dec 2005 21:28:11 |
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Bluenose
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
134 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2005 : 10:24:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
Well met.
I'm slowly working my through Evermeet: Island of Elves and I am wondering where in Faerun "Atorrnash" was located (vis-a-vis "modern" landmarks). I didn't see it on the map of realms in Lost Empires, but that may be because it was primordial by even the standards of Elven realms.
Where were the earliest Elven cities located -- pre-Crown Wars? Were any of them reinhabited by other races after the Elves abandoned them? When does Ascarle (sp?), the sunken city, fit into the time frame of early Elven history?
Which of those ancient cities may be deemed "thoroughly looted" by the 14th century DR, and which are still largely inviolate?
(Again, I haven't finished Evermeet yet, so please post spoiler warnings in replies, as appropriate.)
Thank you for your gracious attention to my queries, O ye learned and wise!
From Cormanthyr, Empire of Elves, in the section on Elven history there is a description of the earliest Elven kingdoms on Faerun.
“By the Time of Flowers (as it was called in Illefarn), the Elves had settled into five major civilisations on Faerun. Spread from North to South along the western coast were Aryvandaar (gold elves), Illefarn (green elves), Miyeritar (dark and green elves), Shantel Othreir (gold and moon elves), and Keltormir (moon and green elves). There were other elven outposts and realms both on Faerun and beyond in other parts of Toril such as Thearnytaar, Eiellur, and Syorpiir (the predominantly green elf kingdoms in the major forest south of the Vilhon Reach) or Orishaar and Ilythiir, the moon and dark elf domains in the woods south of the Lake of Steam (in the forests that once covered the Shaar).”
Since you’ve got Lost Empires, you’ve got a map with Illefarn on it, and Aryvandaar is described in there. Miyeritar occupied what is now the High Moor. I’d suggest Shantel Othreier would be between the river Chionthar and the Cloudpeaks, and Keltormir would cover modern Tethyr and Northern Calimshan. What is now the Forest of Mir would be the borderland between Keltormir and Ilythiir. Orishaar and Ilythiir are then in the Shaar area.
As for reusing lost Elven ruins, it would depend on the location. There seems to have been a settlement of some sort on the site of Waterdeep for thousands of years, and other sites have similar advantages. I’d expect some of these to be either on top of or close to the site of ancient elven ruins. Some of the sites in the High Forest would have carried on being used by the successor kingdoms of Eaerlann, Ammarindar, Sharrven and Siluvanede. Some of them appear in the Last Mythal series of books,and Lost Empires identifies a few. I’d also expect some sites to exist in the forest of Tethir that the green elves have simply abandoned.
I expect the Elves probably removed or destroyed most of the valuable items before abandoning the cities when they could. The victors would loot ones destroyed in war, while those destroyed in cataclysms would only leave underground areas intact. This isn’t to say that there aren’t ruins holding Elven treasures, but they aren’t likely to be around the cities. Any surviving vaults would probably be in isolated areas, carefully hidden.
Spoiler. Don’t read this section if you haven’t reached the part about the great elven ritual “creating” Evermeet in Chapter 9 The Sundering.
The side effects of the High Magic used in the creation or preparation of Evermeet led to a lot of lands being flooded. I’m personally inclined to believe that the Lake of Steam was at one time just that, a lake, and that the Shining Sea was smaller than it is now and didn’t stretch further than the island of Tharsult. In this case Atorrnash, which is on the coast, would have been drowned millennia ago under the waters. Anyway, that’s my pet theory. All I need is a couple of ships, priests with water breathing spells or co-operation from some Sea Elves, and several years to search, and I can prove it.
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These, in the day when heaven was falling,
The hour when earth's foundations fled,
Followed their mercenary calling
And took their wages and are dead.
Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
They stood, and earth's foundations stay;
What God abandoned, these defended,
And saved the sum of things for pay. |
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Beirnadri Magranth
Senior Scribe
USA
720 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2005 : 18:17:56
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since we're talking about over 30,000 years ago and the about elves (who probably use organic material in early construction).... theres a significant probability that the cities are decomposed and buried under feet of soil. So there isn't really any chance of using ruins.  |
"You came here to be a martyr in a great big bang of glory... instead you will die with a whimper."
::moussaoui tries to interrupt::
"You will never get a chance to speak again and that's an appropriate ending."
-Judge Brinkema |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2005 : 22:59:51
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Thanks to those who have contributed so far. After reading the chapter on the Sundering, I also came to believe that Atorrnash was destroyed then.
Taking the Sundering and the destruction of Jhamadaath into consideration, I'd say that Elves on Faerun do not deserve to be considered "Good" according to D&D alignment rules. They are a very ruthless and bigoted bunch. All the more reason to plunder their ruins and their tombs, sez I. What's the worst that could happen ... ?  |
I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2005 : 23:00:33
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"what's the worst that can happen?"
You do something, then 20 years down the road when you've forgotten about it and they're still hot.... they sneak into your home and string ye up <g> |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2005 : 00:41:31
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
"what's the worst that can happen?"
You do something, then 20 years down the road when you've forgotten about it and they're still hot.... they sneak into your home and string ye up <g>
... or hideous underground monsters or undead Netherese Arcanists show up. *sigh* What's a tomb robber to do?! |
I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Bluenose
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
134 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2005 : 18:21:13
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
"what's the worst that can happen?"
You could slog through miles of hostile countryside, defeat immensely powerful undead guardians, avoid devious and deadly traps, and triumphantly throw open the doors to the great elven treasure vault...
...and find out that someone beat you to it.
quote:
You do something, then 20 years down the road when you've forgotten about it and they're still hot.... they sneak into your home and string ye up <g>
Or you could realise that all the stuff you avoided on the way in will be waiting for you on the way out.
Seriously though, any vault which has remained unplundered for thousands of years is going to be extremely dangerous - if I was DMing one I'd try to make it at least as deadly as the Tomb of Horrors. |
These, in the day when heaven was falling,
The hour when earth's foundations fled,
Followed their mercenary calling
And took their wages and are dead.
Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
They stood, and earth's foundations stay;
What God abandoned, these defended,
And saved the sum of things for pay. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2005 : 22:07:56
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Cormanthyr also says that, given the opportunity, the elves use High Magic to return their cities to the elements they grew them from (they had several rituals specifically for that). Thus the only ruins you'll find are those that were conquered (like Myth Drannor), giving the elves no chance to work their magic. Cities that were abandoned were, at least until the present-day decrease in High Mages, generally returned to a natural state.
This has nothing to do with tombs/underground storehouses and the like, of course, only elven cities and towns. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2005 : 00:54:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Cormanthyr also says that, given the opportunity, the elves use High Magic to return their cities to the elements they grew them from (they had several rituals specifically for that). Thus the only ruins you'll find are those that were conquered (like Myth Drannor), giving the elves no chance to work their magic. Cities that were abandoned were, at least until the present-day decrease in High Mages, generally returned to a natural state.
This has nothing to do with tombs/underground storehouses and the like, of course, only elven cities and towns.
But some Elven cities do remain more or less intact, such as the city of silver spires or whatever it's called, southwest of Turlang's Wood in the High Forest. Now, just get past the trolls, the forest orcs and goblins, and ancient tree ents and -- voila! -- nothing to worry about but High Magic curses and archliches.  |
I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2005 : 06:13:01
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| Technically they'd be baelnorn, if they were elves. And I never said elven ruins didn't exist, I was just trotting out the explanation of why *more* don't exist. After all, barring earthquake, not much'll bring down an old dwarven hold. Somewhat different with the elves. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Beirnadri Magranth
Senior Scribe
USA
720 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2006 : 20:26:22
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cities from only a thousand years ago or so are completely buried in some areas of teh world. now imagine how buried they would be in several eons (or whatever you call tens of thousands of years). Since elven architecture is slender (fragile), made of plants (which would decompose) and held together with decaying magic im surprised as many elven ruins still exist.
ESPecially because alot of the time elves will try to cover their cities in illusions or take it a part when they flee.!!! |
"You came here to be a martyr in a great big bang of glory... instead you will die with a whimper."
::moussaoui tries to interrupt::
"You will never get a chance to speak again and that's an appropriate ending."
-Judge Brinkema |
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Ancient Elven Cities - locations ?
