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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Dec 2005 : 06:52:10
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I'm moving this here, so as to keep KEJR's original "Legendary Monsters" scroll on-topic -
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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
What we really want, is a deity that specifically represents the minotaurs as a naturally occuring race and has a definitive place in a divine pantheon.
That's exactly it! So many other races have a patron deity or pantheon, but not the minotaurs...
Perhaps we should speculate about the possible porfolio a minotaur deity in the Realms might have?
Although there are so few minotaur NPC examples in the Realms, most mentioned in either novels or sourcebooks seem to follow a mercenary-styled life... wandering from place to place. Some exist as slaves, while others serve in legitimate military roles supporting governments -- Calimshan for example. There is however, no actual minotaur nation or collective of minotaurs that can be used as a basis to support the creation of a racial deity for minotaurs (aside from the ties to Baphomet outlined in Giantcraft).
So, should we fit this proposed deity to conform to these examples or create a deity from scratch?
Thoughts?
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Edited by - The Sage on 03 Dec 2005 06:53:28
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2005 : 15:19:40
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But since 1st Edition, Baphomet has been the patron of Minotaurs. And since he is a demipower, he could grant spells. And even with the new cosmology, the Abyss (and Orcus, et al.) still exist. Do we need a second deity?
Plus, like you said Sage, most have been shown as mercs, so wouldn't they follow a more suitable god for that line of work?
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2005 : 16:02:59
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While that's true, Baphomet isn't an exclusive minotaur deity (in the same sense that Corellon Larethian is god of elves [only] in the Realms). And he has no priesthood in Faerun.
What Wooly and I were discussing earlier, was the possibility for a specific minotaur-only deity for FR.
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Edited by - The Sage on 03 Dec 2005 16:06:09 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2005 : 16:06:29
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quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
But since 1st Edition, Baphomet has been the patron of Minotaurs. And since he is a demipower, he could grant spells. And even with the new cosmology, the Abyss (and Orcus, et al.) still exist. Do we need a second deity?
Plus, like you said Sage, most have been shown as mercs, so wouldn't they follow a more suitable god for that line of work?
C-Fb
I think so. Baphomet is a tanar'ri. He's evil, and he's a reflection of the fact that in prior editions, minotaurs were referred to as a cursed race, not a naturally occurring one. While we've not seen a lot of minotaurs in fiction or in sourcebooks (outside of Krynn, where they have a couple of full-on nations), the ones we have seen have never been referred to as being cursed -- implying that they are a natural race. In the Moonsea sourcebook, I believe in the city of Thesk, a minotaur by the name of Thud is mentioned. As I recall, his alignment was true neutral -- hardly an indicator of being cursed.
So, I feel (and Sage seems to agree), that a naturally occurring race that is not necessarily evil or cursed should have the option of a non-evil deific patron.
My suggestion would be a neutral deity, with portfolios of minotaurs and strength, and maybe a couple of others. I favor stoicism for some reason, and D&D minotaurs can't seem to escape their real-world mythological origins, so mazes should prolly be in there, too. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 03 Dec 2005 16:07:20 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2005 : 16:44:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
In the Moonsea sourcebook, I believe in the city of Thesk, a minotaur by the name of Thud is mentioned. As I recall, his alignment was true neutral -- hardly an indicator of being cursed.
It's Thentia actually. Thud is a N minotaur running the Inlet.
quote:
So, I feel (and Sage seems to agree), that a naturally occurring race that is not necessarily evil or cursed should have the option of a non-evil deific patron.
My suggestion would be a neutral deity, with portfolios of minotaurs and strength, and maybe a couple of others. I favor stoicism for some reason, and D&D minotaurs can't seem to escape their real-world mythological origins, so mazes should prolly be in there, too.
Seems reasonable.
Although I like the option of intelligent and articulate minotaurs, rather than the brutish types they are usually portrated as in some settings. It's for this reason that I think knowledge should have some place in a minotaur deity's porfolio -- it's a break from the common stereotype.
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2005 : 16:47:52
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Ok, I can see where that is coming from.
Well, he would probably be a demigod then (as his faithful would be naturally small since Minotaurs aren't that common) or maybe a small lesser power.
His portfolio could include: Minotaurs, Strength, Completion, Struggle.
Completion and struggle for the two lines that minotaurs would have to face daily in the prejudices of Faerun.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2005 : 19:47:39
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I don't see why a minotaur could not worship Chauntea or Silvanus or Shaundakul or another current deity. Come to think of it, Hathor seems especially appropriate.
Perhaps an existing god could be worshipped under an alias that allows for the Minotaurs to have a customized conception of that god that they choose to worship in the guise of a powerful minotaur.
For instance, a minotaur warrior might venerate "Toro" a bull-headed (literally) god of warriors, who is actually just Tempus under an alias. |
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The Cardinal
Senior Scribe
Canada
647 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2005 : 21:56:12
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That is possible, I mean, the Gnolls are similar in a sense, so it would make sense that Minotaurs could follow another deity (or perhaps a handful) under different alias'. However... we do wonder in a sense that since it is seen as Baphomet is a Patron of sorts, would it not be he that claims them in the end, or the general herd. N may not be a reflection of an evil patron, it is possible that there is some aspect of a Minotaur's nature (excessive aggression? just guessing) that makes them a cursed race.
This is, of course going under the assumption that they are still considered a cursed race in the first place. This then rises another question: Within Faerun, is there any documentation of Minotaur 'society'? (Perhaps they once had a marvolous civilization in which they had Human slaves? Ok, a bad Mishra impersonation ;p) |
It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2005 : 22:16:22
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| The Labyrinth region of the Underdark is suppose to be the remains of a lost Minotaur civilization |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2005 : 02:56:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Perhaps an existing god could be worshipped under an alias that allows for the Minotaurs to have a customized conception of that god that they choose to worship in the guise of a powerful minotaur.
That's very similar to how the minotaurs of Krynn interprete Sargonnas actually -- viewing him from their own racial perspective while at the same time the same god is visually (and sometimes philosophically) interpreted differently among other racial groups.
I suppose this could be extended to Baphomet, and we know the demon lord often appears with the head of a bull -- perhaps indicative of specific minotaurs veneration. And I would think that, given their natural strength and penchant for battle -- a racially interpreted form of Tempus would be a possibility as well.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2005 : 03:01:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
The Labyrinth region of the Underdark is suppose to be the remains of a lost Minotaur civilization
I think that's laid down more as a link to real-world mythological trends regarding the Minos civilisation than any real connection to the Realmslore.
DDGttU also tells us about the suspected minotaur civilisation in the Labyrinth -- with it being squarely under the power of the baphotaurs (believed to be a variant tiefling of mixed human, minotaur, and bulezau ancestry).
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Ardashir
Senior Scribe
USA
544 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2008 : 23:19:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
I don't see why a minotaur could not worship Chauntea or Silvanus or Shaundakul or another current deity. Come to think of it, Hathor seems especially appropriate.
I must admit, Hathor seems like an especially good choice for good or neutral minotaurs. For that matter I could see her priestesses being able to summon celestial or half-celestial miontaurs as protectors. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2008 : 23:54:22
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Just a few random thoughts -
I'm pegging Ibrandul as a promordial (now, with 4e around). If the ancient Minotaur Civilization in the Labyrinth/Underdark dates back before the split of Abeir and Toril, then Ibrandul could be a hold-over from that time (his portfolio lends itself to Mazes nicely).
Of course, that means since the ToT, Shar would be their new patron... and she already has enough going on. 
Except for the Cow-head, I'm just not seeing Hathor... AT ALL. Deities can appear anyway they like to their worshippers, so the way they appear to humans is inconsequential. Also, Hathor is an interloper, and there had to be some Minotaur god around before the Imaskari 'imported' their Mulan slaves, which brings me to my next point...
Why NOT Baphomet? Just like the 'Cow-head' thing I mentioned above, a lot of the way the cosmos works is subject to 'human' (mortal) concepts, and things don't neccessarily follow the rules we think they do. There have been LOTS of canon instances where demons and devils were also divine in some spheres, and several (like Lolth and Orcus) have shifted their status between Fiend and Deity more then once. Ergo, Baphomet could very well have been much more powerful on the "Minotaur Homeworld", but after his race got spread to other spheres he lost status and is now just considered an Arch-fiend.
To further support that argument, I offer you the 4e cosmology (which I don't neccessarily adhere to or hate), wherein the lines between Deity, Primordial, and Arch-fiend become even more blurred, with no real mechanical difference between them (as far as worship/spells go).
Another thing - Hera is sometimes pictured with a Cow's head, in her more ancient role as a 'matron-goddess' (in such places as Cyprus). Not that she has a presence in FR, but the early Chondathan Pantheon has been associated with the Olympian one, and she has just as much right to be in FR as Hathor does (in fact, both are probably aspects of an even older mesopotamian God).
Lastly, I have two differnt types of Minotaurs IMG. The BIG, beastial ones (which average around 7'6" tall), and the smller, humanish ones that only stand about 6'6" or so. The Big ones are true monsters, and their legs are those of a bull, including the hooves. The smaller ones have FEET, similar to a humans, but tougher and with only three toes(looking somewhat like a Hoof).
Originally I had the 'civilized' ones in the Utter East, until I learned there already was plenty going on there. If I ever get around to putting all my Utter east stuff down on paper, I will have a group of them travel from Abeir and wind-up in the Ue (just as I originally had) come 4e.
I just thought they were an interesting dynamic with the Yakmen south of the Yehimals, and I placed Bargda (Goatmen) on the eastern side of the Yehimals, giving me a group a 'Beastmen' for each Campaign Region that borders the Yehimal Mountain range.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 24 Sep 2008 00:16:04 |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2008 : 23:59:48
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From the MM 4ed it seems the minotaurs are split into three subspecies. One is the normal Minotaur, an any alignment creature of medium height who is a character race in the back of the book.
The other two are the Cabalist which seems to be demonically enchanced, and the Savage which seems feral and bloodier. The later being the only large minotuar.
The former of the two could be enhanced by Baphomet in a ritual for more power. The later could be enhanced by Malar for Size and power. Normal Minotaur are warriors so any Warrior gods would be more common like Tempus or the Red Knight.
Just think about it. |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
Edited by - Foxhelm on 24 Sep 2008 00:02:18 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2008 : 00:19:17
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There is a picture of the Baphotaur (and stats) in 3e's Underdark.
There's also a picture (and template) of a Faerzress-infused one in the same book. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2008 : 00:42:52
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Alright, I read the first few posts and before being swayed by other scribes words (because damn, we've got some clever folks around here) I'm going to put a few things out there.
1) I sort of like the idea of minotaurs being foreign to Toril. I don't particularly see a need for a deity that allows minotaur worshipers, or takes an interest in minotaur worshipers, having a focus on minotaurs more than their other worshipers or responsibilities.
2) I'm a big fan of the uber-powerful outsiders being the supreme force in the D&D reality, so I'm usually in favor of them having effect upon worlds, even if they aren't paying any real attention (A minion of a minor duke of theirs has some agents that occasionally interact with things faerunian). So I'm really in favor of Baphomet being the originator of the minotaur species. I'm even in favor of minotaurs being the result of a curse put upon Baphomet's followers in whatever plane or prime is a good pick. That said, those events are so far removed from "today" that they have no true practical bearing upon any minotaur in question (baring things such as worshipers from the time of the minotaur creation and beings that rightfully should be under Baphomet's thumb).
3) I can easily see minotaurs arriving in Toril and being able to trive (in regards to the circumstances of course) and can easily see there being a few clans of minotaurs about the face of Toril, possibly even a town of hundreds in some areas. I can easily see a host of gods finding interest in these beings. I think that Torm would be a . . . well. .. a sorta rip off really. But if the minotaurs came from Krynn then that'd be fine. I can see, in different circumstances, Malar, Talos, Chauntea (I know, it'd be tough, but I'm pretty sure I could come up with a place of origin and some story to back it *g*), Silvanus, Tempus, Umberlee (going with the whole sailor jam there) and that's just the Major's from F&P. I can see any one of those gods "cleasing the taint" from any peoples (even if it were to be a placebo, since I'm thinking any curses or claims on all minotaurs by Baphomet have lost any vigor long ago) that might be relevant.
Ok, now to read the thread. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2008 : 00:55:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I just thought they were an interesting dynamic with the Yakmen south of the Yehimals, and I placed Bargda (Goatmen) on the eastern side of the Yehimals, giving me a group a 'Beastmen' for each Campaign Region that borders the Yehimal Mountain range.
And where you do place the area of Chaos in this geographical arrangement Markus? |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2008 : 00:57:18
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Alright, just a note on minotaurs strength and intellect and what's what with all that.
Personally, I really like Krynn's way of doing minotaurs and their bestial nature and their fight to not be savage. I think that there certainly can and should be diversity amongst minotaurs but I think that's because they could have taken many different paths to arrive in Toril. But, like I said, I like the mostly savage but trying to maintain civilization.
I think it'd be really interesting to have them in an area of natural danger where they would have to struggle and work together with some sort of allies. In fact, I might just include a small amount of minotaurs in my game, in the Aphrunns and mix them with some barbarian types I'd put out there (yeah, I like Martin and it's a total rip off of the barbarians in the mountains of the moon). Hmmmm. . . now I'm wondering what I should do about deities.
Anyhow, minotaurs are nifty. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4216 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2008 : 05:22:52
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Thinking just quickly on this, I thought of the Minotaurs as an early cursed race of the Imaskari. You say "what?!" to me.
Well, the Imaskari were well known as slave-takers and very powerful magically. Wanting to ensure that they had a powerful group of slaves, they could have used the "Curse" of being transformed into a Minotaur on those slaves who rebelled in some way.
This is just a thought.
As for their gods, they could have any number of gods they call their own. Just like Seth (or whatever the Yuan-ti call him) became the god of Yuan-ti; the Minotaurs could have had some "Hero-God" come to be that they call upon after the fall of the Imaskari empire.
Or, had the Imaskari angered some demon (Baphomet), he could have claimed the minotaurs because he wanted them to destroy his enemy (a cabal of Imaskari wizards who chained him perhaps?).
Just some quick ideas. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4216 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2008 : 06:13:00
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Ok...a few more thoughts for an origin of a Minotaur Diety.
Lets say a race with a Bull Headed God (any number of our own historical gods would fit) was taken by the Imaskari.
This race was caught worshiping their god by their Imaskari overlords.
As a curse upon them to "teach them a lesson" the Imaskari enacted a horrible curse learned from a chained Demon named Baphomet.
Thinking they were going to get a race of hard-working, dimwitted and docile cow headed servants the Imaskari go ahead with their curse...not knowing that Baphomet had placed details within the curse that the Imaskari hadn't realized.
Upon completion of the curse, the entire race (men and women) were transformed into nearly the intent of the Imaskari...but instead the bestial minotaurs we know today.
The entire population had been the slaves working upon a vast maze that the Imaskari had intended to imprison Baphomet within (the reason now unknown); but Baphomet's twisting of the curse had essentially given him an army of bloodthirsty maze-proof soldiers.
Appearing to the confused new race in their mutual prison-maze, Baphomet told the Minotaurs that they had been "blessed" by him (their god of old) with new power to throw down their hated masters.
The ensuing struggle resulted in Baphomet being freed at the heavy loss of most of the Minotaurs, though some were able to flee with him into the Abyss through an Imaskari Portal. This group of Minotaurs soon learned the truth and were without females; but another group existed.
This group, fleeing through an underground chasm into the Underdark that was created during the struggle against the Imaskari had females with them. These minotaurs suffered through many generations and myths until finally the Time of Troubles came. With the Imaskari ban upon the Gods of the Mulan lifted, so too was the ban upon the Minotaur races original Bull-headed God lifted.
Name him what you will and from what myths you want to pull on, but at long last he not only heard the prayers of the Minotaurs calling to him; but answered them too.
Take this as far as you want...either to shortly after the Time of Troubles or on into the time after the transition to 4e; but it would give the Minotaur race essentially two gods to call on.
For the longest time in Faerun Baphomet has been most likely to interact with minotaurs; but now their original god has heard their call and his more civilized manner and desire for civilization and prosperity for his "special race" have caused him to come to Faerun as yet another interloper god...but still the original god of the Minotaurs.
Just an idea...
If I were to make him up, I would make him thus:
Lawful Neutral
God of Agriculture/Fertility(very verile) and Civilization; as well as some sort of struggle (war-type portfolio of some sort) and strength. Many early human cultures thought the Bull was a powerful figure to be revered.
He would probably only be a Demi-God in Faerun due to the small number of followers; but this would allow him a broad range in his portfolio without treading on too many bigger feet.
He might even be a racist...seeking to place his race in dominance over others. If not as slave-holders, then at least to the point that in the minotaur civilization no other races could be citizens.
I have a rather extensive Minotaur race I have created for my home campaign world...I'll post it seperately. Feel free to use whatever you would like from it and disgard it if you don't like it.
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The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4216 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2008 : 06:17:57
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I'm sorry for the length...and I know it isn't from FR, but I thought if you wanted you can either use any part; or simply delete the post...
This race is made for a 3.5 D&D game that uses heavy influence from the Conan RPG
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Minotaurs of Aerk
The phrase "Strong as a mule" is not an exaggeration for the average Minotaur; but more common words or phrases used for their race would be: "A good slave stock," beastly, animal, or even monster. Few places or people treat a Minotaur even as an equal to a slave in Aerk. Any place outside the only Minotaur nation in the world that is. Sogar's Hold is the only place in the world where the Minotaurs rule.
While other races in Aerk are considered plentiful, rare, or nearly extinct; the sad truth about the Minotaurs is that they are rarely even considered at all. Many who own a Minotaur as a slave would not even consider him as even above the livestock. In fact, there are several nations such as the Karnite Empire, Theocracy of Hesh, Sorcere and Rhakash that have declared Minotaur slaves to not be slaves at all, and thus they can't be freed since they are livestock.
The origins of the Minotaur race are lost in ancient history. Many believe they were created from cursed humans by the Aerkay for use as servants and workers when humans became uncontrollable. Because so many Minotaurs are found inside the nation of Rhakash, others say they are the result of experimentation by the ancient Rhakshasa that once ruled that area of the world. Whatever their true origin; the fact of their race is that most Minotaurs are slaves at best. They live out their life as long lived and docile workers mainly, with only a few ever having been mentioned even briefly in history books. This all changed in the Imperial Capital of Karn however.
The Karnite Emperor began to favor watching his gladiators do battle against the strength of the Minotaurs which were plentiful among the slaves owned within the city. For years lone Minotaurs, armed only with their horns, would be forced to battle against well armed and armored adversaries in the arena. Such was their strength that they would even sometimes manage a victory, only to be slain by arrows for daring to kill a citizen. Eventually the reigning Emperor, Baslan "Black Crown" Karn, decided to trim the population of Minotaurs and have a grand scene for all to enjoy. He placed 1,000 Minotaurs in the Grand Arena of Karn to face a Legion of 3,300 soldiers in a pitched battle. History shows the Legion lost.
Every Legionnaire that fell armed a Minotaur; and as the battle raged, many realized the Minotaurs were going to win as they brutally slaughtered their opponents and took up their weapons because the Legion had no room to maneuver against the mad crushing weight of the Minotaurs. By the time there were 500 standing Minotaurs and only 500 or so soldiers, Emperor Baslan ordered his archers to begin slaying the Minotaurs. Unfortunately, so confident that his soldiers would kill the Minotaurs easily, the Emperor stationed only 100 archers on the arena wall. Many fell quickly to hurled javelins as half of the Minotaurs finished off the soldiers in the arena while the rest assaulted the arena walls.
Many events conspired against the Emperor at that time. Minotaurs that had been standing humbly beside their masters in the audience took this as their only moment. Seemingly as one, many scores of them rose up at once and began to attack those around them in revenge for lifetimes of crimes against their race. As the first horns were blown in the arena sounding slave revolt, the first armed Minotaurs were leaving the structure and launching brutal attacks down the streets as more Minotaurs joined them. Never before had these "animals" rebelled, only human slaves had ever dared. Unfortunately for the citizens of Karn, every slave in their city rose up that day. More damning was the sudden appearance of a massive fleet of Wolf Kingdom Raiders, Rhakash Reavers and Corsairs from Rhem off the coast.
After two days of street to street fighting, the slaves and invaders were victorious. Minotaurs were free in great numbers for the first time in history. In agreement with the invaders, the Minotaurs were given those ships left empty by casualties of the invaders for their share of the city's spoils. The Minotaurs left under the command of the Great Sogar, the Minotaur warrior-wizard thought to have somehow gathered the invaders together. It is said all citizens of Karn either died fighting, were slaughtered, or were sold as slaves in the markets of Rhakash and Rhem if not taken as thralls far to the south in the Wolf Kingdom.
The Minotaurs sailed south with the Wolf Raiders for an island off the coast of the Kur Tribelands. The orcs there were slaughtered or fled the island on small boats. When the Karnite Empire sent armies to try and again enslave the Minotaurs of Sogar's Hold, they failed; often failing miserably. The Minotaurs quickly gained a fierce reputation and were known to be able to defeat any army three times their number. The now known secret to their success was their use of the first true Pike formations. Their long Pikes could reach beyond the War Spear formations of their enemies and slay entire front lines before their foes could even close to fight with them, especially if the Minotaurs were charging; and some have said a Minotaur wielded Pike could pierce through two men!
After decades of nearly continuous war against Karnite Imperials and Orcs, the Minotaurs finally launched their first naval attack against an enemy. The teachings of Sogar, who had long been at sea before his enslavement by Aerkay of Sorcere, taught the Minotaurs the ways of the sea. They spent vast sums of hard earned silver and gold earned in mercenary work on the finest instructors to teach them how to build fast and powerful galleys. The fleet that sailed from Sogar's Hold was built entirely by Minotaurs for Minotaur warriors, the sails were spun by Minotaurs, the rams forged by Minotaur smiths, and the weapons and armor worn by the soldiers made for them by Minotaurs. Since that fleet sailed, no fleet has ever approached Sogar's Hold.
The Minotaurs still to this day make war upon any nation that keeps Minotaurs as slaves. Minotaur galleys only go in force north of the Kingdom of Mahn or Rhulgaard; both of which no longer keep slaves of any sort. They battle hard against the Kur Tribes to keep sharp; but their true campaigns are meant for Karnite and Heshan war galleys and even land raids against lands as far away as Rhakash and Herik. If the Karnite Empire were to focus upon Sogar's Hold it could easily crush it now, but with quick diplomacy and much cunning, the Minotaurs have made allies of the White King, various Jarls of Jarlholme, and the other Sea Holds within the Sea of Vhal. Many hundreds of Minotaurs from Sogar's Hold also serve as elite mercenary soldiers in Rhulgaard to help that land stay free of the Karnite Empire; and negotiations are under way for formal alliance. It is unknown what the final tale of this emerging race will be; but for the time being, they are somewhat safe and flourishing within Aerk.
Personality: Minotaurs are rumored to be the fiercest race in the entire world; the truth is actually at the other extreme. Only by necessity have the Minotaurs become so warlike and aggressive, because in truth they are one of the most docile and friendly races that live today. Most who meet a Minotaur for the first time will be amazed at how gentle and kind they can be. People who have made friends of Minotaurs use words like "peaceful" or "generous" to describe them. A Minotaur is ever cautious however, they carefully watch all around them to make sure they are not being used or insulted. Once brought to anger however, there are few sights more terrifying than a charging Minotaur with froth foaming from his mouth and his heavily armored and inhumanly strong body delivering blow after blow to an enemy.
Physical Description: Male Minotaurs average 7'2" in height, while females average two inches shorter. The average weight of a Minotaur shows just how massive they are; males average 450 pounds while females average about 400 pounds. Minotaurs have powerful bovine heads with little to no neck connecting it to massive shoulders. Their bodies are completely human from the shoulders down, with skin color a deep tanned bronze. Males are set apart from females by long manes which drop to either side past thick horns that curve slightly outward and then down past the Minotaur's muzzle. Minotaur hair color is nearly a universal brown, with only the rarest being black headed; their hair slowly becomes "peppered" as they age, but never truly grays. Minotaurs dress in only functional and very spartan clothing made from cloth. No Minotaur will wear the flesh of another living being. Because of this, many go barefooted or wear a unique shoe made of wood and cloth. Their armors are universally metal armor fitted together with cloth, silk, or such. Living in the cold south has forced the Minotaurs to develop thickly insulated clothes that look like padded armor as well. Minotaur soldiers of Sogar's Hold will be equipped with the heaviest armor and weapons the state can afford: mail shirt and scale hauberk with steel cap and large shield; and armed with pike or arbalest, battle axe, heavy mace and poniard.
Relations: Few individuals treat Minotaurs with respect. Most tend to believe them somewhat unintelligent at best or barely above animals at worst. Dwur are an exception to this, and many Dwur craftsmen remained in Sogar's Hold when they had finished instructing the Minotaurs in various crafts. Port cities which have allowed Minotaurs to dock there will often show greater respect toward them; but will also usually restrict them within their cities. Earning him the title of "Friend of all Minotaurs" by the ruling Council of Sogar's Hold, King Alisander of the Kingdom of Mahn signed a treaty of trade and alliance with the Council in which he bought the freedom of every bonded Minotaur within his Kingdom and gave them a choice to travel to Sogar's Hold or remain as peasants of his kingdom. Of all human lands, Minotaurs find most acceptance within the Kingdom of Mahn, Kos Principalities (as mercenaries against the Khrun) or Rhulgaard (where they currently work as mercenaries of the Iron Tyrant); but even then it is a limited acceptance still fraught with often extreme prejudice.
Alignment: Most Minotaurs tend toward Neutral alignment because they nearly always follow the rules as long as they are fair. Many also tend toward good alignments because they truly only wish to live peaceful lives among their own kind and don't wish conflict as long as they are free. For this reason, the race as a whole tends toward a Neutral Good alignment; but it is not uncommon to find Lawful Good or Chaotic Good members as well. Much rarer are actually evil individuals, but they are not unknown.
Minotaur Lands: The Minotaur race only claims one small region of land as its own: the Seahold of Sogar's Hold. It is, however, one of the most powerful city-states in all the nations of Aerk. Every citizen is skilled in the use of their national weapon: the Pike. Since their pikes are easy only for them to use because of their strength and training, the Pike of Sogar is feared by enemies. Buildings in Sogar's Hold are very spartan and without decoration; but its massive walls and the structures within are all very well made and clean. The Minotaurs do not keep slaves, although the few residents of their nation that are not Minotaurs have no say in the government, military, or other major institutions of government. Most Minotaurs spend their days partaking of intensive labor of one kind or another because they are so used to such work. Their farms are very ordered and their flocks of goats (used for milk and cheese) and sheep (used for wool) are strong and healthy. New to Sogar's Hold are the many Mammoths imported from the Kos Principalities for aid in labor and to be used in war. Another favorite pastime of the Minotaurs has become chariot races where a lone Minotaur will be pulled upon a chariot by a team of no less than six strong horses.
Language: There is no known language of the Minotaurs. Most of them speak the Karnite language of Common because it is the only language they have ever known. Because they despise the Karnites so much, the Council of Sogar's Hold has actually decided to create a new language for their race. The runic alphabet of the Dwur has already been passed to them from the Jarlholmir and resident Dwur for use in writing; but the spoken language will most likely not be accomplished for some while so that a Minotaur language is created. Minotaurs "native" to other lands will speak the language most common in that land.
Names: Every Minotaur of Sogar's Hold renounced his given Karnite name and took instead a created name or one borrowed from another culture; especially the Jarlholmer culture since it is so close. Because of this, Minotaur names vary so wildly that no common names can be given here. Most male names do tend to sound very strong however, and female names tend to sound very important.
Religion: Having never known an independent deity, the Minotaur race has very few ideas of where to place their amassed religious need. They do have strong ties to the earth and sea, so some have begun to follow the teachings of the Druids from the Kingdom of Mahn. This would be their primary faith were it not for the very small numbers who actually follow these teachings. The only other religion found in any great number among them would be a crude form of ancestor worship. Although crude, it must have some basis, because the "Sons of Sogar" have several Minotaurs who can call upon godlike powers to turn undead and heal the sick. Some believe Sogar has gone on to become a Demi-Power, but does not want to force himself on his former people and so he grants power to those who ask. Despite their wars, they do not have warlike clergy of any kind.
The Minotaurs within the White Kingdom
(As told by the Lore-Master of the White King)
Minotaurs make up the smallest number of sentient people within the Kingdom of Mahn, unless the unknown number of Fhraen is smaller; most having left the land for Sogar's Hold when King Alisander bought their freedom many years ago. Those that remain have done so usually because they had found true friends before being freed or were already free; though the latter was a rare exception.
Minotaur citizens are mostly still held upon the lands they live because they were only freed, not lifted to Freeman status; perhaps confusing to some, but now they may not be sold or separated from their families. These Minotaur peasants usually have banded together and farm upon lands where more kindly nobles once owned them. Their farms produce prodigious crops which are always a boon to the fortunate noble who has them in his service. Most of these Minotaur families number at least a few Freemen among them however; their hard work is to save coin enough to buy their total freedom. Freeman Minotaurs that leave behind their kin are very rare. These individuals work just as hard to free even more of their family. In some places there are whole thorps containing only Minotaurs who work hard for the noble on whose land they live.
Unfortunately, prejudice against Minotaurs is still commonplace in nearly all lands belonging to the White King; but more a prejudice of ignorance than of true hatred. Minotaurs who work hard and contribute heavily to their lord and those around them are found to have more and more human friends in their communities. Despite their growing reputation as a good and worthy race, there have never been Minotaurs which were lifted to the nobility of the Kingdom. While many eventually are willing to befriend them, very few humans feel comfortable following a Minotaur. For this same reason, only in units comprised only of Minotaurs will a member of this race be found as an officer; even in mercenary units. Ironically, the much less trusted races of Fhraen and Daerkur will often have humans which follow them.
I believe, given perhaps a few more decades, Minotaurs will find much more acceptance within the Kingdom; with some perhaps even becoming Knights at least. My reason for believing this is the simple fact that the White King himself has already decided to take on an entire Freeman Minotaur family as special guardians of the gates of Caer Validan's outermost gate within the City of Vaelin. These imposing soldiers stand vigilant watch on the gate at all hours of the day. Even before the White King hired the Faelkands into his service, they were known as some of the fiercest mercenaries in the Kingdom when needed to be. Their plate armored swordsmen (wielding massive greatswords) never hired on as attackers in any conflict however; only as castle guards or, in lean times, guards of caravans. They have never lost one of their twelve man unit in the nine
years since they were first known, but have tallied over two hundred enemy deaths.
In truth, the White King has graced me with the ever watchful protection of the eldest Faelkand to be my bodyguard when I travel. Brakaen's strength and skill at arms are both impressive beyond few things I have ever witnessed in those two fields. While traveling back from the Highland Duchies we were fiercely attacked by a trio of the twisted Fhomorian giants. Brakaen took no fewer than five boulders in his chest, one of which smashed straight through his greatsword; and still brought the battle to the behemoths. Were it not for my own paltry magic, I am sure he would have perished; but there was a moment when he held one of them at bay with his bare hands, locked in a contest of strength, hand to hand. The giant died after Brakaen gored him numerous times in the face and chest. The Minotaurs are mighty indeed and should never be underestimated.
The racial abilities of Minotaurs are:
+4 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Dexterity, -2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma; while Minotaurs are very powerful and sturdy, they are not at all quick, are slow of mind and often grumpy (if not hateful).
Medium Size: as medium sized creatures, Minotaurs have no modifiers or variants.
Minotaur Base Speed is 30 feet.
Racial Skills: Handle Animal, Profession (Farmer and Herder) and Survival.
Natural Gore Attack: Minotaurs may attack enemies with their horns, damage is 1d8 plus 1.5 times their STR bonus; with an armor piercing score of 1 (a piercing score of 2 can be had if the Minotaur has his horns shod in iron). Female Minotaurs are totally without a natural attack.
Phalanx Fighting Proficiency: Pike and Large Shield; all Minotaurs of Sogar's Hold are trained in use of the Pike and Large Shield.
Pike and Shield Mastery: because of their training, great strength and size, Minotaurs can wield the pike and large shield simultaneously; though the Large Shield grants only a +3 shield bonus to parry defense instead of +4, however. In addition, the shield confers the full +4 dodge defense bonus against ranged attacks. Only Minotaurs from Sogar's Hold are allowed this special ability; though any Minotaur that goes there will receive this training if asked for.
+1 Natural Damage Reduction adjustment. Minotaur flesh is of sterner stuff.
+2 racial bonuses on Intimidate, Animal Handling, and Profession Farmer and Herdsman skill checks. Minotaurs are very physically imposing, but their true kindness and hard work ethic show greatly in their farming and herding.
-2 racial penalty on Bluff, Diplomacy and Gather Information checks with any race but Minotaurs; they find it hard to find those willing to believe them or even willing to talk to them without obvious condescension
-4 racial penalty on disguise checks when attempting any race but Minotaur; their bestial appearance makes it extremely hard to disguise what they are.
+1 Racial bonus on Will saving throws, +2 to all saves vs. fear. Minotaurs are very strong of will, and struggle even when things seem hopeless.
All Minotaurs receive the Endurance Feat as a bonus. The legendary ability of this race to work when even some animals will falter is not a myth; Minotaurs can carry on working for many long hours.
All Minotaurs receive a -4 penalty to their Leadership Score if they attempt to recruit any race but their own as either follower or Cohort. Other races simply don't feel right following someone so animal-like.
Automatic Languages: the language of the land from which they come (most often Common). Bonus Languages: Dwur or other languages native to their homeland.
Favored Class: Fighter. Minotaurs take easily to the dedicated path of martial discipline due to their great strength and strong resolve; this especially due to the fact that any Minotaur that is Free to do as he pleases will most likely be a soldier from whatever land they come from.
Prohibited Classes: Aristocrat, Monk and Rogue. No Minotaur will ever Lord over another or destroy their honor by stealing and skulking; while being a Monk simply isn't something the social Minotaurs would normally consider.
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The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2008 : 08:28:36
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I don't see why minotaurs could not have been brought over from Earth by the Imaskari with the slaves from classical Greece/Rome who would come to populate Chessenta. Minotaurs were known to the ancient mediteraneans. Especially around the Crete area. Something to think about anyway.
As for post-spellplague minotaurs, I see several gods that might appeal to a minotaur based on the gods' 4e spheres: Hruggek (ambush), Malar (beasts), Bahgtru (brute strength), Luthic (caves), Marthammor Duin (explorers), Thard Harr (hunting), Fenmarel Mestarine (outcasts), Gruumsh (savagery), Ilmater (suffering), The Red Knight (tactics), Arvoreen (vigilance), etc.
It really depends on how the minotaur sees himself, his role in the world, and his relation to his deity. |
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Na-Gang
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
348 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2008 : 09:42:18
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Apart from the obvious Baphomet and Markustay's suggestion of Ibrandul (which I think is quite on the money), I'd throw Grumbar in the mix as well.
Since Grumbar is an Elemental Lord/Primoridal/whatever he's been around longer than a lot of other deities so Minotaurs can have as long a history as one likes. He's the god of earth and changelessness, which can lead us to strength and stubborness/stoicism.
Alternately, what about Eltab? I know I'm just throwing another demon lord into this stew but Eltab has a history with Faerun and shares some physical traits with minotaurs and Baphomet. Plus "Lord of the Hidden Layer" could be a metaphor for a labyrinth. |
Edited by - Na-Gang on 24 Sep 2008 09:46:15 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2008 : 14:49:17
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For an FR minotaur deity, I favor something we came up with a few years back... I think it was back in 2006 that a scribe named Shadowjack asked about minotaur culture. Before the thread died off, we had created a minotaur/gnome city-state hidden in the Qurth forests in the Border Kingdoms. The city-state was descended from minotaurs that millenia ago fled the fall of the giant empires, and they'd had a particularly charismatic leader who had eventually ascended to being a demipower.
I've been meaning to revisit the idea for a while, but I've not figured how what I do and don't want to change from the original discussion.  |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2008 : 15:43:08
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I remember helping those scribes working on that little idea. We tinkered with the concept that there may have been a rebellion... with minotaurs -- "under the thumb of the giants" -- wanting to pursue an independent existence not wholly dominated by their giant masters. Good stuff!
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2008 : 15:44:53
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| I also remember Krash liking the idea of a minotaur realm. I wonder if he ever did manage to sneak a reference about it into his "History of the East?" |
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Edited by - The Sage on 24 Sep 2008 15:45:54 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2008 : 19:15:59
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I placed my old Minotaur Kingdom in ancient Ulgarth, long before the Mujhari came up from Zakhara, or the Mar cam across the Yehimals into the Utter East. The place still has ruins throughout The Stoney Wastes.
I have the curent group of (odd) people in Ulgarth as Chondathans who were slowly driven south by Unther's expansion, who formed the nation of Veldorn.
Alas... when that nation fell years later, they were forced once again to flee even further south, into the region inhabited by the Ulgarian Nomads (Mujhari). This is how I figure northern-style Pladins wound up in the far south-east, worshipping the Faerϋnian Pantheon, no less.
We are drifting a bit off topic here, but I wouldn't mind (if the OP doesn't) this topic broadening to include 'all things Minotaur' in the Realms, including any canon info and homebrew possibilities.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
For an FR minotaur deity, I favor something we came up with a few years back... I think it was back in 2006 that a scribe named Shadowjack asked about minotaur culture. Before the thread died off, we had created a minotaur/gnome city-state hidden in the Qurth forests in the Border Kingdoms.
Interesting... now you have mne thinking about something truly bizarre - Gnome/Minotaur crossbreeds! 
Little Minotaurs built like Dwarves - that would be freakin' awesome.
Minotaurs used to be my favorite mythological creature, and still ranks up there in the top ten. I really disliked Dragonlance, but the Minotaurs of Taladas was one of the two Krynnish supplements I bought.
Mod edit: fixed coding.  |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 24 Sep 2008 19:26:04 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2008 : 19:27:03
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| Well, there wasn't any mention of crossbreeds... I'm actually not overly sure why Shadowjack wanted to include the gnomes, but I ran with it. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2008 : 01:51:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Minotaurs used to be my favorite mythological creature, and still ranks up there in the top ten. I really disliked Dragonlance, but the Minotaurs of Taladas was one of the two Krynnish supplements I bought.
As I recall from the earlier discussion Wooly initially mentioned above, we tinkered with the Krynnish minotaur alternative somewhat.
It was initially similar to how the minotaurs have operated in the Blood Isles upon Krynn -- in areas somewhat mountainous or canyon-like that both protect [and isolate] their cities from the rest of the world. I like the idea of isolated minotaur civilisations in the Realms, but not because, like Krynnish minotaurs, they believe themselves to be the chosen children or the gods. Rather, a minotaur civilisation in the Realms would isolate itself because, by and large, they have an understanding that their culture and civilisation on Toril is extremely unique and that it deserves protection from outsiders. Geography and cultural traits can work to ensure this.
However, that is as far as I would take the comparison and I would also further suggest that minotaurs in the Realms have very little interaction with the sea or large bodies of water.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2008 : 02:09:28
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| Yeah, they don't strike me as the most nautically inclined folks, myself. They're just too big. |
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Ranak
Learned Scribe
USA
190 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2008 : 02:47:27
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I think Haask, the Voice of Hargut, is an excellent choice to add to the Minotaur pantheon, particularly as the focal point of an evil cult, or insidious cabal of Minotaurs.
As established in Brian James's excellent article on Ironfang keep, Haask is indeed a Minotaur and demonstrates that not all Minotaurs are brutes.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20071107a
The article specifically mentions that Haask would seek the protection of Malar, so in a 4e game Haask could be easily incorporated as an Exarch.
Haask makes a great foil for Baphomet, as a more intelligent, insidious rendition of one of my favorite monsters, the Minotaur.
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I'm moving this here, so as to keep KEJR's original "Legendary Monsters" scroll on-topic -
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
What we really want, is a deity that specifically represents the minotaurs as a naturally occuring race and has a definitive place in a divine pantheon.
That's exactly it! So many other races have a patron deity or pantheon, but not the minotaurs...
Perhaps we should speculate about the possible porfolio a minotaur deity in the Realms might have?
Although there are so few minotaur NPC examples in the Realms, most mentioned in either novels or sourcebooks seem to follow a mercenary-styled life... wandering from place to place. Some exist as slaves, while others serve in legitimate military roles supporting governments -- Calimshan for example. There is however, no actual minotaur nation or collective of minotaurs that can be used as a basis to support the creation of a racial deity for minotaurs (aside from the ties to Baphomet outlined in Giantcraft).
So, should we fit this proposed deity to conform to these examples or create a deity from scratch?
Thoughts?
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Edited by - Ranak on 25 Sep 2008 02:48:42 |
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An FR deity for minotaurs...
