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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Nov 2005 : 05:32:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
As for "realistic"? Are you saying that it's ridiculous for fantasy to be realistic? Oh, freaking please. Fantasy and sci-fi may not adhere to real-world laws and precedents, but it has to be internally logical and consistent. Or, at least, the good ones do.
Ahh Winterfox, your grasp on those cudgels is always so impressive. And you seem to love putting words in my mouth. This isn't the first time you've done it - I am keeping count, you know. I can't recall using the word 'ridiculous' and that's not what I meant at all. What I meant was that it appears from my point of view (which may be flawed - if it is, you'll bring it to my attention nothing surer) that there is a seminal difference between heroes in fantasy fiction and normal people. Heroes kill dragons and don't get killed themselves - well, most of the time they don't. Normal people get killed or saved by the heroes. Gandalf kills the balrog. Theoden's manservant gets killed at the Pelennor Fields. Lord Mhoram defeats the giant raver. Triock's companions get slain on the way to find the Unfettered One. It seems to happen all the time, dontcha think?
What I always struggle to fathom is the seeming resentment on the part of many readers who seem to be cheering on the bad guys and appear to be disappointed when the goods guys win or succeed. R L Byers is IMHO maturing into a more capable FR author (as Queen of the Depths illustrates). Not sure he would have been able to write much of a Rage of the Dragons novel trilogy if his protagonists never actually encountered any dragons (because according to the prevailing view, if the dragons were portrayed 'properly' his characters would be dead in a trice), were unable to stop Sammaster or his machinations (because as a powerful wizard lich he should just stomp on them) and were just static observers in a series of events (because the Realms is obviously too dangerous for those kind of heroes ...).
Your mileage will vary.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Inquisitor
Acolyte
Germany
42 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2005 : 05:46:18
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quote:
I'll admit that I'm still not sure what Kara really sees in Dorn (I can see why Dorn likes her, but not vice versa). As for Joysil, I could have sworn that her romantic partner was really Elminster, not Vangerdahast...
It was both Elminster and Vangerdahast. Elminster in the past but in the end she joins Vangerdahast as consort, giving her whole hoard away and accepting a life in stasis. She wouldn't do that if she wouldn't care much for Vangerdahast which is strange when you consider what he did and wanted to do to her.
And while Vangerdahast only wanted to enslave some dragons he also knew fully well that when he developed this spells they would eventually spread over whole fearun and everyone would bind dragons enslaving the whole race and he accepted that.
Yes, that are only 2 individuals, but correct me if I'm wrong, that are 100% of all Song Dragons who appeared in novels, so yes one can judge all song dragons based on those two.
On the "heroic nameless soldier" issue I use the term Hero in the PnP sense. Read it as powerfull individual. You won't expect a city guard of Waterdeep to fight nearly as good as Drizzt yet in the Year of the Rogue Dragons many namless characters rival the protagonists in power and slay multiple dragons. Who needs the heroes when normal folk can do their work just fine? Why try to prevent the rage as dragons don't pose much of a threat anyway? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2005 : 06:20:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Inquisitor
It was both Elminster and Vangerdahast. Elminster in the past but in the end she joins Vangerdahast as consort, giving her whole hoard away and accepting a life in stasis. She wouldn't do that if she wouldn't care much for Vangerdahast which is strange when you consider what he did and wanted to do to her.
By joining him, she could, among other things, keep an eye on him.
quote:
Originally posted by Inquisitor
And while Vangerdahast only wanted to enslave some dragons he also knew fully well that when he developed this spells they would eventually spread over whole fearun and everyone would bind dragons enslaving the whole race and he accepted that.
Could, not would. And he didn't want that -- it wasn't his goal. He simply was doing what he's always done: serve and protect the realm. The fact that he changed his spells to prevent that shows that he's not power-hungry, nor interested in enslaving an entire race.
quote:
Originally posted by Inquisitor
Yes, that are only 2 individuals, but correct me if I'm wrong, that are 100% of all Song Dragons who appeared in novels, so yes one can judge all song dragons based on those two.
Even if only one song dragon has appeared in a novel, I disagree: we cannot judge the entire race based on a small selection of individuals from that race.
quote:
Originally posted by Inquisitor
On the "heroic nameless soldier" issue I use the term Hero in the PnP sense. Read it as powerfull individual. You won't expect a city guard of Waterdeep to fight nearly as good as Drizzt yet in the Year of the Rogue Dragons many namless characters rival the protagonists in power and slay multiple dragons. Who needs the heroes when normal folk can do their work just fine? Why try to prevent the rage as dragons don't pose much of a threat anyway?
Who are these nameless characters who are slaying multiple dragons?
And just because several individuals were able to kill a dragon or two, it doesn't mean it was easy for them, or that they rival the heroes in power. A hundred soldiers with swords can kill a dragon on the ground, provided that they can get close enough. Does that make them the same as a small group that has slain dragons in combat on multiple occasions? Nope, not at all. It just means that the heroes aren't the only capable folk in the Realms. |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2005 : 11:41:26
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George Krashos:
quote:
Ahh Winterfox, your grasp on those cudgels is always so impressive.
And of course you're wielding a rapier. :p
quote:
This isn't the first time you've done it - I am keeping count, you know.
If you keep, uhm, a record of it, by all means point all the instances out.
quote:
I can't recall using the word 'ridiculous' and that's not what I meant at all.
I think you can differentiate between "Are you saying that it's ridiculous?" and "You are saying that it's ridiculous", right? One's a question, the other a statement.
And here? I put words in your mouth? Reeeeally?
quote:
I love that one. People who want stories about dragons to be 'realistic'.
Uh... yeah. How am I to interpret that, if not "Wow, you guys expect a story that has dragons and magic and stuff in it to be 'realistic'? Rofles!" Really. Do enlighten me.
quote:
What I always struggle to fathom is the seeming resentment on the part of many readers who seem to be cheering on the bad guys and appear to be disappointed when the goods guys win or succeed.
What's so strange about that? Again, such isn't the case with the Years of the Rogue Dragons trilogy for me, but there've been books where I root for the villains because the heroes are so irritating, so dull, or so idiotic, and seem to win only out of sheer luck or with a deus ex machina. (Of course, sometimes both sides are equally stupid, and it becomes a contest for "Who's the biggest moron in the story?", the plot suffers from Idiotis, and I chuck the book across the room.) |
Edited by - Winterfox on 28 Nov 2005 13:38:23 |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2005 : 12:29:14
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Unfortunately its not just Dragons that suffer from this particularly in the novels. Evil in a lot of the novels has come to = Stupid or blatently Incompetent.If you want to see a prime example of this read any of the pre time of Troubles novels that feature Manshoon (mostly Eds stuff) some of these books frequently make me wonder if Manshoon donned a hat of stupidity after he had sucessfully carried out his cunning plan to rule Zhentil keep!
Now in Eds defence apparently alot of the Dumbing down of manshoon was thrust upon his novels by the Novels department and the Hooded one has hinted that Manshoon isnt a fool in the home FR campaign
Now some will say who wants to read a novel where the bad guys win? We'll they dont always have to win but they should at least look competent. Now theres actually an FR hasnt made dumb villians for her novels, and thats Elaine Cunningham infact Elaine hasnt killed any of the principal bad guys from her novels (With the exception of Garnet)Kymbil, Dag, Lord Hune, Lady Thione, Her daughter all got away free as did Liriel Baenres main foe (The drow female with the Pitch fork)
Another good example is Troy Dennings Return of the Arch Wizards series the 2 main groups of Bad guys, the Phaerium and Shades didn come out ontop but they certainly did go quietly the Shades destroyed Tilverton and Phaerium depopulated the last major Elven city on Faerun
Those 2 examples show it can be done, the bad guys dont have to be idiots in the novels |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
Edited by - Dargoth on 28 Nov 2005 12:32:47 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2005 : 17:32:47
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| Let's stick to the topic, folks, and avoid the "you said"/"no, you said" debates. Those can get ugly, and we don't really need them here. |
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Inquisitor
Acolyte
Germany
42 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2005 : 07:02:03
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Another thing which is kinda related to that, why are demons so strong?
In many books even lesser demons get portrayed as very powerfull and even old dragons are compared to that weak.
The authors should really pay more attention to the lore (which also includes to some point rules) of the worlds they are writing for, not even in 1st Edition were lesser demons stronger than older dragons. |
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Walking in the Light
Acolyte
22 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2005 : 07:30:47
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Well I just read the part with the dragon fight in the book Elminster Daughter
The Song Dragon was beaten so fast it was disappointing
Im not sure is a Song Dragon new to FR Realms?
Are they human in form normally?
Because that was one of the way the Dragon was beaten by changing it to a human.
Basically the Dragon rolled on top of and slapped around some floating Armor Horrors with swords and axes
But as soon as the wizard shows up BAM !
The Dragon is made human and cant do anything but get angry.
They even call the dragon a dog for its digging like one just to get to the wizard
I must say if all Dragon fights go that fast then I can see why Inquisitor brought the subject up.
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From the Book Halfling Sayings by Agudo
A Lion Tamer once said, if ya need an illusionist for thy circus then call a Gnome
But if thy circus needs a clown send in the Halflings
Chapter 5-The town of Gullykin on the Sword Coast
By Lady Silvin Lionheart, speaking to Agudo in the year of the Comical Halfling
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Edited by - Walking in the Light on 02 Dec 2005 07:32:21 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2005 : 08:44:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Walking in the Light
Well I just read the part with the dragon fight in the book Elminster Daughter
The Song Dragon was beaten so fast it was disappointing
Im not sure is a Song Dragon new to FR Realms?
Are they human in form normally?
Because that was one of the way the Dragon was beaten by changing it to a human.
Basically the Dragon rolled on top of and slapped around some floating Armor Horrors with swords and axes
But as soon as the wizard shows up BAM !
The Dragon is made human and cant do anything but get angry.
They even call the dragon a dog for its digging like one just to get to the wizard
I must say if all Dragon fights go that fast then I can see why Inquisitor brought the subject up.
Ed is probably using the old version of song dragons, which are weredragons which are basically human females that can turn into dragons since he created them. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2005 : 11:31:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Walking in the Light
Im not sure is a Song Dragon new to FR Realms?
Nope, they were introduced years ago in Dragon... I believe it was actually in 1E when they were intro'ed. We've just not seen them in novels until recently. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2005 : 22:18:52
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
What I always struggle to fathom is the seeming resentment on the part of many readers who seem to be cheering on the bad guys and appear to be disappointed when the goods guys win or succeed.
I'm not sure there really are "many readers" who feel that way though--at least, I doubt it's overwhelming or anything. If I feel that the heroes win too easily, too conveniently, or without *any* losses (and these can be intangible things, like a change in one's sense of self), then I WILL point that out in my little reviews here. I like it when characters change throughout the story--my least favorite books are the ones where the characters never seem to change no matter what happens to them. It's a fact of life that much of a person's growth comes during times of pain and loss. I have faced and accepted the fact that I am a modern woman who likes characters that are pyschologically realistic, regardless of what their powers might be.
Also, not all heroism is about "winning". The story by Kameron M. Franklin in Realms of the Dragons II is a good example of a hero who does win, but not in the way that most readers would expect. And of course, it's possible to win in one way but lose in another. Not all heroes are people wearing plate armor and holding up a gleaming sword--there are many kinds of heroism, and a good book explores and acknowledges them.
Finally, the desire for "realism" is about keeping the story consistent and logical with it's setting--just because a story is fantasy doesn't mean logic can be safely thrown out the window (btw, I'm not applying this to RLB's novels, and I've always felt he was a good writer--my comments here are general).
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 03 Dec 2005 22:20:09 |
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Walking in the Light
Acolyte
22 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2005 : 22:49:21
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Cool thanks for the info Kuje and Wooly Rupert
To be honest I was thinking that would help the battle make since If the Song Dragon was normally in mortal form allowing the reader to see why she was changed.
It would have been nice if the writer had given some quick background on what a song Dragon is so as to create more depth and fun for the reader.
Also Rinonalyrna Fathomlin is right that a personal struggle and some emotional challenges would give a deep feel to the story.
Don’t get me wrong.... the good guys don’t have to die or suffer huge losses.
But yaaaa its boring when the fight goes to easy.
Its better to make the victory of battle seesaw from one side to the other before someone wins.
I think that’s true if the bad guy wins to easily of a victory
Then she/he doesn’t look that great of an opponent and makes the story seem less enjoyable.
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From the Book Halfling Sayings by Agudo
A Lion Tamer once said, if ya need an illusionist for thy circus then call a Gnome
But if thy circus needs a clown send in the Halflings
Chapter 5-The town of Gullykin on the Sword Coast
By Lady Silvin Lionheart, speaking to Agudo in the year of the Comical Halfling
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Does a FR book with "real" dragons exist?
