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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Nov 2005 : 02:05:18
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
How could you have a Realms that features Tiamat so prominently without Bahamut as well? He's got to be included ...
-- George Krashos
I dont know you'll have to ask the Eric's or Sean because he wasnt included in Faithes and pantheons. Which is silly because Bahamut actually appears in an FR module (H4 Throne of Blood Stone)and im pretty sure hes the one who gives Gareths Dragonsbane the tree that keeps Demons out of Damara |
I am the King of Rome, and above grammar
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2005 : 02:09:13
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Bahamut is everyone's friend - plus, is he not the ultimate bling dragon? Seriously - he should be included as at least a demigod, or lesser deity.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2005 : 04:49:24
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| I wouldn't have a problem with Bahamut being reclassed as a celestial paragon. That would put him on par with Talisid, Queen Morwel, Zaphkiel, and also all the archfiends. Paragons can still receive worship (of a sort) and grant spells and have domains. It might be a nice way to reconcile his status which vacillated between deity and just powerful unique dragon between editions. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2005 : 04:58:21
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By the way, Tom Costa wrote up a really cool version of Bahamut, chock full of rich realms lore. I love the way his Bahamut is more closely tied to the Untheric pantheon, having taken over the alias of Marduk after the real Marduk passed on. His Bahamut is firmly tied to the myths of Unther and Damara. I wouldn't have a problem at all if they adopted Tom Costa's version of Bahamut in Dragon's of Faerūn.
You can read Tom Costa's version of Bahamut online in this thread here:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=410060
Scroll down to post #15 or click here:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=5940611&postcount=15
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2005 : 05:21:05
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| I was just perusing SKR's website, and Bahamut was on his list of non human deities that should have been mentioned in Faiths and Pantheons but wasn't, so I don't think there should be a problem with Bahamut making a return to FR glory, since it doesn't seem that it was an intentional exclusion. Tiamat's just been a busier god than the old Platinum Dragon, it seems. |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2005 : 06:32:40
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Interesting Amazon doesnt mention who the authors where for Dragons of Faerun its atributes the book to the "Wizards team"
I wonder who contributed to it...
*Looks suspeciously at Eric, Thomas, Wil and Sean*
Or was Dragons of Faerun an Inhouse product? |
I am the King of Rome, and above grammar
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2005 : 15:04:09
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I don't know about Bahamut being just a celestial paragon. I think he should at least be on par with Tiamat. I do understand your ideas, though, Gray. That would be the easiest way to reconcile the introduction of Bahamut into the Realms at this point.
Speaking of which, (off-topic), where does one find info on Queen Morwel and the such. I remember reading about her, but I can't seem to find the right book. I have too many gaming books strewn about the house. 
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2005 : 15:40:42
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quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
I don't know about Bahamut being just a celestial paragon. I think he should at least be on par with Tiamat. I do understand your ideas, though, Gray. That would be the easiest way to reconcile the introduction of Bahamut into the Realms at this point.
Speaking of which, (off-topic), where does one find info on Queen Morwel and the such. I remember reading about her, but I can't seem to find the right book. I have too many gaming books strewn about the house.
C-Fb
Well Bahamut was a deity in FR back in 2e in the Cult of the Dragon or Dracomicon (sp?) :)
As for the Queen, Book of Exhalted Deeds and Planescape material. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2005 : 16:39:54
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True, Bahamut was a god in Cult of the Dragon, although it did so at the expense of merging him with Xymor, which I always found kind of dubious. Bahamut was just a unique, powerful dragon in the 1e Monster Manual. The FOR1 Draconomicon (was that 1e or 2e?) had Xymor as a distinct and separate god and placed Bahamut in the camp of powerful, unique dragons. But it also asks the question whether he is just a mortal dragon king or an avatar of a deity, or a god in his own right, and says that sages continue to debate the matter... much as we sages are doing now. 
Now, while Tiamat is a god (a lesser god, DVR 10) it doesn't mean that a celestial paragon cannot rival her in power. One would expect however for Tiamat to have a leg up on Bahamut somewhat, because she actually has a sizable human following in Unther. We are told she was worshipped by all alignments, even good worshippers, because as Gilgeam was such a tyrant, and she was his enemy, people prayed to her to bring about the fall of Gilgeam and felt she could hardly be any worse. She also has a sizable following in Chessenta where they worship her under the name of Tchazzar.
When Faiths & Pantheons culled some of the gods from Faerūn, I thought it odd that Bahamut didn't make the cut. But sometimes obstacles breed creative solutions, and I figure Bahamut would work quite well as a paragon.
As a paragon, he could still have domains and grant spells and people could worship him, even believe him to be a god. He wouldn't necessarily have to live in Dragon Eyrie (maybe he does, maybe he doesn't) but could still live on Mount Celestia where he traditionally had his residence. Lots of good and interesting things could come from making him a paragon. It is a very workable alternative to godhood.
I am not arguing against him being a god. If they reinstate him as a god, that would make me equally happy. And I think Tom Costa's workup of him hits all the right notes, so that would be an excellent way to go too.
I am just saying that if Bahamut's demotion from godhood stands, then Paragon would be an optimal solution. There are tons of gods, and not many paragons, and a few more unique celestial paragons to square off against all the arch-fiends would make for interesting lore in the Realms.  |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2005 : 18:56:48
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That's a good twist! Since the Realms does still have all of its Demon Princes and Arch-Devils, it would be good to have another powerful, unique celestial to turn to. Plus, he could always undermine Tiamat's efforts on the plane as well. Good ideas.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2005 : 19:30:01
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I don't know . . . Xymor only really existed as a paragraph of information that said that he loves both justice and mercy, and that you can't tell what color he is becuase of his shining light, and that he is native to the Seven Heavens. I don't know that any particular sources picked up on Xymor and ran with him until Cult of the Dragon tried to find a middle ground between Monster Mythology and the Draconomicon.
Now as far as making things more interesting, I can see Bahamut being an avatar or aspect of Xymor that was well known to metallic dragons at one point in time, that might have faded from memory and then becomes more prominent again. I could also see Bahamut being a particularly powerful singular follower of Xymor, and that when something befell Xymor, Bahamut inherited his portfolio and powers.
The funny thing is Tiamat really is more of an interloper deity in the Draconic pantheon, the way things stand. Tiamat, as presented in the Realms, was Untheric, but had an interest in dragons, and has expanded her interests. Given this history, there is a lot of work to do to specifically position Bahamut opposite of Tiamat in the Realms, though the Bloodstone Lands incedent definately starts the ball rolling.
I'm wondering if Dragons of Faerun might have information on the NPC dragons that first showed up in the 2nd Edition FR Draconomicon (Aurus, Lareth, Nexus, Flashburn, Lux, Tamarand, Pelath, Havarland) especially since a few of them show up in the Year of Rogue Dragons books. We might actually end up seeing some of the structure behind the draconic organizations that are hinted at as well.
Not to mention that we do still have some specific FR dragon species that haven't showed up in 3/3.5 to date.
(And yes, I too hate "DragonLance" style dragon names in the Forgotten Realms . . . Flashburn . . . ick . . . even DragonLance dragons don't really have those names, they're just nicknames . . . ) |
Edited by - KnightErrantJR on 22 Nov 2005 19:31:14 |
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Drakul
Senior Scribe
USA
367 Posts |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2005 : 22:26:29
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Thanks for the praise once again Gray.
Gray dragons are the same as steel dragons. In the world of Greyhawk, there were Greyhawk dragons which were slightly different from steel dragons and were consequently folded into being one and the same, if memory serves. In any case, steel dragons are statted up in 3.5E format (maybe 3E) on the Wizards website, so no need to look too far for them. |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2005 : 03:38:52
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quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
quote:
Originally posted by Drakul
Speakin of Dragons, where can I find info about the elusive Grey Dragon?? Cause there is a PrC called Grey Hand and it mentions a Grey Dragon.
Where is this PrC from?
The new Waterdeep sourcebook. Gray Hand Enforcer. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2005 : 05:32:33
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
(And yes, I too hate "DragonLance" style dragon names in the Forgotten Realms . . . Flashburn . . . ick . . . even DragonLance dragons don't really have those names, they're just nicknames . . . )
Never fear KE Jr. It's been one of my personal bugbears for years - those names are atrocious. What is likely to happen is that those names will be considered, as you state, nicknames or the names these dragons go by when humans talk of them. All hopefully will be given proper draconic names. Here's hoping.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Drakul
Senior Scribe
USA
367 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2005 : 06:09:55
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quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
quote:
Originally posted by Drakul
Speakin of Dragons, where can I find info about the elusive Grey Dragon?? Cause there is a PrC called Grey Hand and it mentions a Grey Dragon.
Where is this PrC from?
The Grey Hand PrC is in the Path of Shadow; a Legend & Lairs book. |
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDonLNKf6_KA9Qlal3Qu3zQ?view_as=subscriber |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2005 : 06:12:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
quote:
Originally posted by Drakul
Speakin of Dragons, where can I find info about the elusive Grey Dragon?? Cause there is a PrC called Grey Hand and it mentions a Grey Dragon.
Where is this PrC from?
The new Waterdeep sourcebook. Gray Hand Enforcer. :)
Nope, and I just found it.
Its a third party PrC. A Legendary Prestige Class in Path of Shadow by Fantasy Flight Games.
You have to complete 3 quests to qualify for this LPrC.
1) When an assassin hopes to become a Grey Hand, he must set before himself three nearly impossible tasks to prove his skills. First, he must survive the poison barbs of the venomous grey dragon. This will prove he is the master of his life.
I think this is the Grey Dragon, Drakul was asking about. Which wouldn't be a Steel Dragon because of it being Venomous, unless I'm having a brain lapse, Steel Dragons weren't poisonous.
So most likely referring to a 3rd party dragon of some sort.
Edit: Drakul, responded while I was typing  |
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Edited by - warlockco on 23 Nov 2005 06:14:28 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2005 : 06:56:49
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| Ah... I guess I thought he was talking about the one in Waterdeep. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2005 : 17:48:09
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The best explanation of dragon names in the Realms is of course by Ed himself and it was part of his Wyrms of the North series of articles for Dragon magazine. Specifically in the article on Lhammaruntosz, "Claws of the Coast". Wizards reprinted these on their website and Sean K. Reynolds updated them for 3E. You can read the bit about draconic names at this link here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/wn/20030326a
Here is the index to all the articles with summaries and a map of draconic territories: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/wn/20041201a |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2005 : 18:42:33
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This book should be good and full of information. I hope it does touch on the history of dragons, the rage, and the current whereabouts of Dragon kings on Faerun.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Drakul
Senior Scribe
USA
367 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2005 : 18:23:37
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quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
quote:
Originally posted by Drakul
Speakin of Dragons, where can I find info about the elusive Grey Dragon?? Cause there is a PrC called Grey Hand and it mentions a Grey Dragon.
Where is this PrC from?
The new Waterdeep sourcebook. Gray Hand Enforcer. :)
Nope, and I just found it.
Its a third party PrC. A Legendary Prestige Class in Path of Shadow by Fantasy Flight Games.
You have to complete 3 quests to qualify for this LPrC.
1) When an assassin hopes to become a Grey Hand, he must set before himself three nearly impossible tasks to prove his skills. First, he must survive the poison barbs of the venomous grey dragon. This will prove he is the master of his life.
I think this is the Grey Dragon, Drakul was asking about. Which wouldn't be a Steel Dragon because of it being Venomous, unless I'm having a brain lapse, Steel Dragons weren't poisonous.
So most likely referring to a 3rd party dragon of some sort.
Edit: Drakul, responded while I was typing
Thank you, Warlocko. After exhausting every search engine, I have found nothing about the Grey Dragon. Is there anyone with the proper resources that can help me??
Edit: Sorry, y'all. I put my response within the quotes. |
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDonLNKf6_KA9Qlal3Qu3zQ?view_as=subscriber |
Edited by - Drakul on 24 Nov 2005 21:19:49 |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2005 : 18:52:22
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Well, mimicking one is the best form of flattery... 
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Drakul
Senior Scribe
USA
367 Posts |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2005 : 09:39:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Drakul
Look at my recent post again. Apparently, I messed up.
Don't worry, it happens, just when there is a quote of something that I have posted, I tend to "gloss" over it, so probably didn't notice your text in the body of it.
That particular beastie might be in one of Fantasy Flight Games books, but since they have ALOT of them out there, no clue on where to search. Might want to check to see if the company has a website with their own forums to ask. |
News of the Weird
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Edited by - warlockco on 25 Nov 2005 09:40:47 |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2005 : 17:33:32
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quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
quote:
Originally posted by Drakul
Look at my recent post again. Apparently, I messed up.
Don't worry, it happens, just when there is a quote of something that I have posted, I tend to "gloss" over it, so probably didn't notice your text in the body of it.
That particular beastie might be in one of Fantasy Flight Games books, but since they have ALOT of them out there, no clue on where to search. Might want to check to see if the company has a website with their own forums to ask.
While going through various books looking for something, noticed something that I had forgotten about. In Dragonlance there is a Gray Dragon there, but it is nothing more than a Variant White Dragon. So this isn't the one you are looking for either. |
News of the Weird
D20 System Reference Document
D20 Modern System Reference Document
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BobROE
Learned Scribe
Canada
106 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2005 : 06:16:46
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quote:
Dragons of Faerun The Forgotten Realms answer to the Draconomicon.
Dragons of Faerun features an in-depth look at the dragons of Forgotten Realms. Dungeon Masters are given information on adventuring in the Year of Rogue Dragons on specific dragons of Faerun and how they may interact with or fight against the players. They are givin information on organizations that the players can belong to or work against, like the evil Cult of the Dragon. Also included is information on how to run a campaign that features the Year of the Rogue Dragons, the one time every thousand years the dragons of Faerun rampage across the continent.
This product is tied to 2006's Year of the Dragons theme, which is a key marketing platform across the D&D RPG, novels, and miniatures brands.
by Eric L. Boyd, Eytan Burnstein, Evan Jamieson; 160 pages, $29.95
Quoted from the Wizards catalog, as posted on EnWorld. Sounds like they're going to tell us what happens during the rage of the dragons. |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2005 : 06:42:03
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quote:
Originally posted by BobROE
quote:
Dragons of Faerun The Forgotten Realms answer to the Draconomicon.
Dragons of Faerun features an in-depth look at the dragons of Forgotten Realms. Dungeon Masters are given information on adventuring in the Year of Rogue Dragons on specific dragons of Faerun and how they may interact with or fight against the players. They are givin information on organizations that the players can belong to or work against, like the evil Cult of the Dragon. Also included is information on how to run a campaign that features the Year of the Rogue Dragons, the one time every thousand years the dragons of Faerun rampage across the continent.
This product is tied to 2006's Year of the Dragons theme, which is a key marketing platform across the D&D RPG, novels, and miniatures brands.
by Eric L. Boyd, Eytan Burnstein, Evan Jamieson; 160 pages, $29.95
Quoted from the Wizards catalog, as posted on EnWorld. Sounds like they're going to tell us what happens during the rage of the dragons.
Sounds like an update version of the old ed Draconomicon and Cult of the Dragons source books.
Also doesnt the Dragon Rage occur every 300 years or so?, Im pretty sure weve had mroe than 2 Dragon rages within a thousand years....
"on specific dragons of Faerun and how they may interact with or fight against the players"
Will these be new dragons or will there be repeated material from Ed and Seans Wyrms of the North series? |
I am the King of Rome, and above grammar
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Dragons of Faerun?
