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maurezen
Acolyte
Russia
26 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Nov 2005 : 11:00:49
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What happens if someone in Faerun attempts to research an epic spell (as described in Epic Level Handbook)? Since Mystra forbade spells above 9th level, the research propably won't be succesful, for epic spells are treated as 10th level for purposes of saving throws. Is that correct?
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I heed the approval of others. I heed not its absence. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2005 : 11:19:41
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No, epic spells are completely different from the old 10th level+ spells that existed in the Realms. Epic spells represent a full understanding of magic on a basic level, and Mystra doesn't forbid them, becuase they aren't as easy as picking up a spellbook and learning a 10th level spell. Examples of cultures that used epic magic were the Netherese and the Elves (Elven High Magic), but the Netherese favored 10th+ level spells. It was a 12th level spell that Karsus used to try to become a god, thus the ban from the new Mystra.
And while on topic, spells that are metamagiced to 10th level plus are alright as well, its just true 10th+ level spells that were banned. |
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maurezen
Acolyte
Russia
26 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2005 : 12:40:43
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| Were those 10+ level spells more powerful than epic spells? Or there was another reason for Netherese (barring the ease of acquiring) for favoring them? |
I heed the approval of others. I heed not its absence. |
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Darkheyr
Learned Scribe
264 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2005 : 13:02:11
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| Basically, you "only" needed spell slots for 10+ level spells. Epic Spells require a hefty amount of resources and spellcraft ranks for similar power. Karsus' Avatar, mentioned 12th-level spell, has a spellcraft DC in the eight hundreds if I recall correctly - assuming you'd translate it to an epic spell. |
silm.pw - A Neverwinter Nights Persistent World |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2005 : 14:45:34
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Which basically means - don't cast it. 
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2089 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2005 : 15:04:34
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The way I explained the game mechanical differences from role-playing differences in 3e (specifically Lost Empires, IIRC) is as follows:
Elves (and other races) had a tradition of epic magic. Elves called this magic "Elven High Magic". Note, this does NOT NECESSARILY (both those words are important) mean that Elven High Magic is equivalent to Epic Magic from a role-playing perspective.
Elves (and other races) also have a tradition of metmagicking 9th and lower level spells into 10th and higher level spell slots.
The elves tried to introduce the tradition of epic magic to the Netherese.
The Netherese eventually rejected this approach (in large part, not exclusively) and set about 10th, 11th, and 12th level spells. From the elves perspective, this had predictable results.
After the Fall of Netheril, the Netherese survivors turned back to developing epic magic because Mystra banned 10th, 11th, and 12th level spells (but not 10th, 11th, and 12th level spell slots for metamagicked 9th and lower level spells).
Note, from a mechanics standpoint (and possibly from a post-Fall of Netheril reinvention standpoint), some "Netherese" spells have been redeveloped as epic spells and some had an epic variant pre-Fall.
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2005 : 15:45:40
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And I, personally, find this a very good explanation, Eric! 
A good, good job.
Thanks for your hard work and good Realmslore!  |
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Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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Beirnadri Magranth
Senior Scribe
USA
720 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2005 : 16:46:41
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| yeah this is really interesting i always thought she banned epic spells higher than 1000dc i guess im wrong. |
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::moussaoui tries to interrupt::
"You will never get a chance to speak again and that's an appropriate ending."
-Judge Brinkema |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36894 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2005 : 17:54:54
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| That's a good explanation, Eric. And it nicely explains why Proctiv's Move Mountain, a formerly 10th level spell, is now around as an epic spell. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2005 : 01:03:07
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Very nice Eric.... very nice .
And the elven/Netherese connection speaks volumes about the arrogance of the various Netheril Magelords toward the practice of the Art in general.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - The Sage on 12 Nov 2005 01:03:48 |
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Aaron L
Acolyte
USA
21 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2005 : 14:30:51
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| "Leveled" spells can be seen as quick and dirty battle magic, thus the reason so many spells are geared towards combat. Epic spells are working with the raw forces of the universe (the Weave) to alter reality on a deeper level. |
"Sustenance is not frivolous." |
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maurezen
Acolyte
Russia
26 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2005 : 08:52:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Darkheyr
Basically, you "only" needed spell slots for 10+ level spells. Epic Spells require a hefty amount of resources and spellcraft ranks for similar power. Karsus' Avatar, mentioned 12th-level spell, has a spellcraft DC in the eight hundreds if I recall correctly - assuming you'd translate it to an epic spell.
When I first encountered the mentioning of this spell in FRCS, I calculated its spellcraft DC. Assuming that ten-year research was not mentioned just for spicing up the description of events, Avatar should have spellcraft DC above 20000 .
I definitely should recall this fact before asking |
I heed the approval of others. I heed not its absence. |
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Darkheyr
Learned Scribe
264 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2005 : 11:16:08
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| Well, it was a 12th level spell back then, not an Epic one, so one shouldn't take the time as a guideline... :) |
silm.pw - A Neverwinter Nights Persistent World |
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maurezen
Acolyte
Russia
26 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2005 : 08:38:44
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| Another question, then. Why didn't I see any epic-spell casters among the mighty of Faerun? Elminster, Simbul, Laeral, Alustriel, Halaster, Szass Tamm, Larloch, High Telamont and his sons and many other mighty men all doesn't have Epic Spellcasting feat. Why? |
I heed the approval of others. I heed not its absence. |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2005 : 16:10:39
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| Because, if you mean their stats in the FRCS, because it was printed prior to the publication of the Epic Level Handbook, meaning that that feat didn't exist at the time of writing. |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
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Rocheval
Acolyte
21 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2005 : 19:04:48
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| I think epic level spells should be treated the same as casting the old Psionic Enchantments from Dark Sun. ie multiple quests to find material, exhausting effort, and some taking years of preparation and even then most of the enchantments don't compare to the power of Epic level spells (not forgetting you had to be a dual class psionic/mage or cleric to even have the mental discipline to cast such) Makes me wonder, if true mastery of magic involves psionics, but thats another topic... |
"I will vanish into the night; change my body to wood or stone; sink into the earth and walk through locked doors. I will be killed many times, yet will not die" excerpt from Ninja No Chigri (Way of the Tiger series) |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6680 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2005 : 01:41:14
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The Simbul does have the Epic Spellcasting feat in the ELH. It's the rest of the Chosen that miss out. Wrongly, IMO.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Rezzenthell
Acolyte
17 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2007 : 23:39:06
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| From what I've heard, theres a lot of epic spells that are ritual spells and require more than one person to cast, and that person has to be at the required level and have the spell researched too...etc. Is that right? I think all that bother would be enough to put most people off the most powerful harmful ones. |
Prepare to be abysserated fool !! |
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Sian
Senior Scribe
Denmark
596 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2007 : 01:16:25
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| what your thinking of is circle magic ... thats the way of the day for Red Wizards ... or when you a load of old wizards and you have to (re)boot a Mythral |
what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month |
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Daniel
Acolyte
USA
5 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2008 : 05:59:20
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| Actually, 'Create Mythal' is an epic spell that has a ritual component- the other mages involved (not the head guy) have to donate a certain level spell slot. The epic level handbook has several other epic spells that require multiple casters, like 'Dragon Knight'. |
The killing was the best part. It was the dying I couldn't take.
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Karsuses Avatar
Acolyte
USA
3 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2008 : 03:48:12
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| In the building of most epic spells there are mitigating factors that will reduce the sometimes astronomical spellcraft DC. Having multiple casters give up spell slots of a certian level is one of these mitigating factors because even the most powerful casters can't hit spellcraft DCs of more than a few hundred. |
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Epic spells in FR
