| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Nov 2005 : 18:56:03
|
If they are all still Lords, don't you think they are overstaying their reign? I mean, what about the previous lords? Were they supposed to surpass their normal life spans? I just think it is a very consortium-like behavior and reminds me of Communism. 
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
 |
|
|
Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2005 : 21:12:49
|
quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
I just think it is a very consortium-like behavior and reminds me of Communism.
C-Fb
It rather puzzles me as to why it reminds you of communism, but on the other hand... communist, as opposed to what? Waterdeep's not a democracy; it's not as if the general populace gets to vote on who'll become the next Open Lord or anything. |
|
|
|
Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2005 : 21:25:37
|
It was a joking reference to my Castro joke above, WF.
And, it's more of a dictatorship consortium if the free people of Waterdeep get no choice in their rulership. What makes Waterdeep different than Menzoberranzan or Coruscant, then? Nothing. People just go about their lives following rules that are put down by people they didn't select - and didn't even have a chance to select.
Don't get me wrong, I love Waterdeep, I just can't stand when people act like it's a free city that listens to the people. It's just not true.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
|
|
|
Dungeon Moron
Acolyte
41 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2005 : 21:57:38
|
Interesting turn in this topic....
I agree with Crennen, that people live by the rules that are given to them.
I miss the point where (the select few) people disagree with the life of their country or city and will protest or leave for something better to their kind (like Drizzt for example).
I do not think there is a common evil and a common good.
I am interested in how Lords come into their position and end their reign (by death or age?) |
Edited by - Dungeon Moron on 10 Nov 2005 22:13:40 |
|
|
|
Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2005 : 22:05:54
|
quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
What makes Waterdeep different than Menzoberranzan or Coruscant, then?
Waaait. Before Palpatine took over, the Galactic Senate has always been democratic in known history; the representatives from each planet or star system present at Coruscant are generally elected. (Unless the planet in question is a monarchy or something, like the Hapes system and the home planet of the Sky'tri.) Yes, I probably know too much about Star Wars, thanks to fanfic research that involved glancing through a timeline from 4,000 years pre-movies.
quote:
Don't get me wrong, I love Waterdeep, I just can't stand when people act like it's a free city that listens to the people. It's just not true.
C-Fb
Oh, I agree about that, but I didn't catch the joke and saw little in common with communism. After all, laissez-faire trade is very much present in Waterdeep. |
|
|
|
Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2005 : 22:08:39
|
Don't forget that for the commoners, living on the rule of a wise paladin is pretty much a good thing.
Of course, Chaotic Good heroes sometimes don't like such a lawful place :) |
|
|
|
Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2005 : 22:50:47
|
quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
What makes Waterdeep different than Menzoberranzan or Coruscant, then?
Waaait. Before Palpatine took over, the Galactic Senate has always been democratic in known history; the representatives from each planet or star system present at Coruscant are generally elected. (Unless the planet in question is a monarchy or something, like the Hapes system and the home planet of the Sky'tri.) Yes, I probably know too much about Star Wars, thanks to fanfic research that involved glancing through a timeline from 4,000 years pre-movies.
quote:
Don't get me wrong, I love Waterdeep, I just can't stand when people act like it's a free city that listens to the people. It's just not true.
C-Fb
Oh, I agree about that, but I didn't catch the joke and saw little in common with communism. After all, laissez-faire trade is very much present in Waterdeep.
Ok, I meant Coruscant for the brief reign of Palpatine, during the Empire days - it was supposedly free, but in reality it wasn't, but I digress. I also agree with your assessment of Hapes. In a way, it is also like any system in Hutt Space - supposedly free trade, as long as you pay tribute.
Anyway - I should have referenced the joke. I do agree that Waterdeep has a very strong lassez-faire economy, as if you can't find it in Waterdeep, you sure as heck can find it in Skullport.
C-Fb
P.s. - After reading your SW fanfic, I knew you'd appreciate the reference. |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
Edited by - Crennen FaerieBane on 10 Nov 2005 22:51:52 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2005 : 22:57:12
|
Ahem... Back to Waterdeep...
I'd think of it as more of a meritocracy... Sure, the Lords are choosing their own co-Lords, but they are picking those who have a proven worth to the city and its common good.
And the Lords do listen to the people, just not in an organized or official fashion. Through their agents and/or their own regular personae, they mingle with the people, they listen to them, and they act accordingly. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 10 Nov 2005 22:58:02 |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2005 : 00:28:28
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'd think of it as more of a meritocracy... Sure, the Lords are choosing their own co-Lords, but they are picking those who have a proven worth to the city and its common good.
And the Lords do listen to the people, just not in an organized or official fashion. Through their agents and/or their own regular personae, they mingle with the people, they listen to them, and they act accordingly.
That's exactly right. While I sometimes doubt co-Lords would fully endorse a new member among them who is extremely popular with the people of Waterdeep as a whole (popularity afterall does not always equate with a competant spirit), if that same member also has displayed a fair amount of skill with tasks normally suited to the Lords... then I'm sure he or she would have their backing.
So yes, the Lords would listen to the people, but as Lords, they have to consider the effects (to the greater realm of Waterdeep) of promoting new members among the Lords. This might suggest greater scrutiny than just simply going with the wishes of the people.
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2005 : 00:36:58
|
Just remember, though, it is the people of the city that give the Lords their power. As Kuje has pointed out numerously - the common citizen may not be a Mirt or a Durnan, but they do matter. And if they rallied to a person's cause, I think it would be best if the Lords put him there... just to quell the people.
Otherwise Waterdeep could be another Watts, or another France.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2005 : 01:20:06
|
quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
Just remember, though, it is the people of the city that give the Lords their power.
While that's true... just imagine the difficulties that might arise in governing the City of Splendors properly should an ineffective new member of the Lords be promoted solely on the basis of what the people want or think of him/her.
There has to be more to the promotion of a new Lord... more than just what the people desire or think. The other Lords have to consider the entire operation of Waterdeep as a whole. The Lords work best (and by association, Waterdeep prospers) when they work as an integrated whole.
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1715 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2005 : 04:00:48
|
There are yet enough folk around who can remember the misrule of the Guildmasters that help remind "ye young whelps" that they've really got it good under the Lords.
And, as I believe Uncle Ed's told us in times past, one of the reasons most folk don't kick up their heels about the Lords and/or the longevity of certain and sundry peoples is that they know how good their city is and don't want to disturb the status quo. It's only those looking for more power or money or influence who want to mess up what the Lords have built by horning their way into those circles. Elaine's DREAM SPHERES was a good example of why you don't want to upset the apple cart too much.
And Piergeiron, to bring it back on topic, is by far the most tolerant paladin on the Sword Coast, which makes him a rarity among those paragons (who tend toward the judgemental side too much). |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
|
|
|
|
khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2005 : 15:42:43
|
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
And Piergeiron, to bring it back on topic, is by far the most tolerant paladin on the Sword Coast, which makes him a rarity among those paragons (who tend toward the judgemental side too much).
Do you mean that they tend towards:"we are right. We know we are right. You will agree with us that we are right, or we will kill you"(think the whitecloaks in wheel of time) It was a bit........disturbing reading about that elven village mentioned in Thornhold that got wiped out by paladins because they didn`t want to let the humans pass through their lands when they were on a mission. After that, I lost my respect for paladins(paladins in warcraft are still ok, though) |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2005 : 17:24:57
|
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
And Piergeiron, to bring it back on topic, is by far the most tolerant paladin on the Sword Coast, which makes him a rarity among those paragons (who tend toward the judgemental side too much).
Do you mean that they tend towards:"we are right. We know we are right. You will agree with us that we are right, or we will kill you"(think the whitecloaks in wheel of time) It was a bit........disturbing reading about that elven village mentioned in Thornhold that got wiped out by paladins because they didn`t want to let the humans pass through their lands when they were on a mission. After that, I lost my respect for paladins(paladins in warcraft are still ok, though)
In that novel, Elaine did an excellent job of showing how strict adherence to good can be an evil thing... Piergeiron presents a nice contrast to that mindset. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2005 : 16:29:05
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
And Piergeiron, to bring it back on topic, is by far the most tolerant paladin on the Sword Coast, which makes him a rarity among those paragons (who tend toward the judgemental side too much).
Do you mean that they tend towards:"we are right. We know we are right. You will agree with us that we are right, or we will kill you"(think the whitecloaks in wheel of time) It was a bit........disturbing reading about that elven village mentioned in Thornhold that got wiped out by paladins because they didn`t want to let the humans pass through their lands when they were on a mission. After that, I lost my respect for paladins(paladins in warcraft are still ok, though)
In that novel, Elaine did an excellent job of showing how strict adherence to good can be an evil thing... Piergeiron presents a nice contrast to that mindset.
Thank goodness(phew). An intelligent paladin. Thought I would never see one. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2005 : 21:24:26
|
| Kianna, Piergieron may be old, but it's not like he has been ruling the city his entire lifetime--remember, he was in the City Guard first, and I seriously doubt he would be allowed to just rule forever if he suddenly decided he wanted to (which probably wouldn't happen). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
|
|
|
ShadowJack
Senior Scribe
USA
350 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2005 : 15:24:57
|
Greetings, Noble Lords and ladies,
This may have already been said, (started on page two) but, I tend to think of Waterdeep and a few other cities in the realms as the perfect example of an "Enlightened Dictatorship". Even though you have severl Lords they still have absolute rule over the city and environs. A dictatorship is the most effecient form of government (though I am glad I don't live in one) with one or a few people making the decisions. If the few are decent and have the good of the people in mind then the populace is happy. If the ruler/rulers are focused only on their desires then the people suffer. A happy, well-fed population would rarely cause trouble. Overall, the Lords rule well with most of the people able to make a living. I loved E.C. novel Dreamspheres in that it showed the life of a struggling commoner who wanted more, but saw no way to achieve it. I wish she would not have died... sniff... |
ShadowJack |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2005 : 17:09:56
|
I wouldn't say it's absolute rule... After all, the guilds look after their own interests. And they and the nobles have influence, even though they don't directly affect the laws. And I wouldn't think that a dictatorship could be run by a committee.
Waterdeep's government is a very interesting one, but I think it's a mistake to try to pigeon-hole it into a real-world classification. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2005 : 01:09:59
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I wouldn't say it's absolute rule... After all, the guilds look after their own interests. And they and the nobles have influence, even though they don't directly affect the laws. And I wouldn't think that a dictatorship could be run by a committee.
Of which, we learn more about during the recent glimpse of Waterdeep's style of government as portrayed in Ed and Elaine's City of Splendors: A Novel.
It provides us with an intriguing view of how Waterdeep's government works in relation to the guilds, the people, and everything in between.
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2005 : 01:53:24
|
Well, if the guilds hold that much influence, then the Lords of Waterdeep is a flawed ruling system. They should just become a city council then - if their power is almost just nominal.
And being an enlightened dictatorship, they do things by votes. :)
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2005 : 02:35:27
|
quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
Well, if the guilds hold that much influence, then the Lords of Waterdeep is a flawed ruling system. They should just become a city council then - if their power is almost just nominal.
And being an enlightened dictatorship, they do things by votes. :)
C-Fb
The guilds can influence what happens in the city, but it's still the Lords who make the laws and see to their enforcement. The Lords hold power in the city -- it's just not absolute power. So that's why I say it's not a dictatorship. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2005 : 03:18:53
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
Well, if the guilds hold that much influence, then the Lords of Waterdeep is a flawed ruling system. They should just become a city council then - if their power is almost just nominal.
And being an enlightened dictatorship, they do things by votes. :)
C-Fb
The guilds can influence what happens in the city, but it's still the Lords who make the laws and see to their enforcement. The Lords hold power in the city -- it's just not absolute power. So that's why I say it's not a dictatorship.
Indeed.
Remember also that both the Watch and the Guard are ultimately under the perview of Piergieron and by extension, the Lords' council. So while the guilds may be able to cause disruptions or influence political decisions made by the Lords to some degree... these are mostly temporary concerns. The backing of both the Watch and Guard ensures that the Lords have the ability to "keep the peace and prosperity" of Waterdeep intact.
And then of course, there are the Magisters and the Courts. And yes, while they are tied to the Lords as well, most of their power and positions rest solely in their ability to be fair and perceptive to the peoples needs. Incompetent Magisters are quickly replaced by the public decree of the Lords, who must also strive to ensure that the Magisters are doing what is required of them to keep Waterdeep a place where fairness and respect for the law is paramount.
Taken as a whole, the style of government in the City of Splendors isn't something that can be easily understood. There are plenty of sharp corners and gray areas where laws can (or could probably be) exploited should someone with such intent wish it so. But for the most part, the government works because the various parts have learned how best to work and relate with each other. And I think that most of these parts -- the Lords, the Magisters, and the Watch -- work as checks and balances toward each other, keeping each group up-to-date on the needs of both the people and the city itself.
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 15 Nov 2005 03:27:15 |
|
|
|
ShadowJack
Senior Scribe
USA
350 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2005 : 12:53:14
|
Most esteemed Sages,
I recently finished going through the Waterdeep Sourcebook and was surprised at the number of evil beings that had managed to infiltrate the Lords, or at least gain undue influence. How do you feel that this will affect Piergeiron and the Lords? Could we be looking at a future time of distrust and instability in the City of Splendors? The worst damage these various power groups could inflict on Waterdeep is to cause the people to distrust the rule of the Lords of Waterdeep. The city is already weakened from the various wars and conflicts... |
ShadowJack |
|
|
|
Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2005 : 14:37:33
|
Well, I think a problem that is truly affecting the Lords is the fact that there are too many chiefs and not enough indians as the story goes. If the Courts, and the Magisters, and the Guilds, and the Nobles, and the Lords, and the Blackstaff... I mean, when you have that many people doing "what's right" for the city and themselves, you are going to run into problems. It reminds me a lot of modern day politics: everyone is trying to grab what they want under the guise of best for the city.
I think if the Lords want to truly be the de facto lawmakers for the City of Splendors, they are going to have to start curbing other powers, else they will fall by the wayside as "just another group of politickers."
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2005 : 17:51:21
|
quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
Well, I think a problem that is truly affecting the Lords is the fact that there are too many chiefs and not enough indians as the story goes. If the Courts, and the Magisters, and the Guilds, and the Nobles, and the Lords, and the Blackstaff... I mean, when you have that many people doing "what's right" for the city and themselves, you are going to run into problems. It reminds me a lot of modern day politics: everyone is trying to grab what they want under the guise of best for the city.
I think if the Lords want to truly be the de facto lawmakers for the City of Splendors, they are going to have to start curbing other powers, else they will fall by the wayside as "just another group of politickers."
C-Fb
I don't see that... The Lords make the laws. They have the Magisters to administer the laws. Nobility and guilds can influence the laws, but that's it. Nobles are usually happy making money and looking better than everyone else, and the guilds are usually trying to take care of themselves and put a little gold into their members' pockets.
It's not that they are all trying to run the city. The Lords, which includes the Blackstaff, does that. The Magisters are just enforcing laws. Nobles and guild occasionally try to get a little more say on what goes on, but they're usually looking to their own affairs, first and foremost.
So the Lords are the de facto lawmakers. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2005 : 03:35:32
|
quote:
Originally posted by ShadowJack
Most esteemed Sages,
I recently finished going through the Waterdeep Sourcebook and was surprised at the number of evil beings that had managed to infiltrate the Lords, or at least gain undue influence. How do you feel that this will affect Piergeiron and the Lords? Could we be looking at a future time of distrust and instability in the City of Splendors? The worst damage these various power groups could inflict on Waterdeep is to cause the people to distrust the rule of the Lords of Waterdeep. The city is already weakened from the various wars and conflicts...
I think part of the reason for all the infiltration is to show that no system, even Waterdeep's, is perfect and inviolate. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2005 : 04:31:26
|
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by ShadowJack
Most esteemed Sages,
I recently finished going through the Waterdeep Sourcebook and was surprised at the number of evil beings that had managed to infiltrate the Lords, or at least gain undue influence. How do you feel that this will affect Piergeiron and the Lords? Could we be looking at a future time of distrust and instability in the City of Splendors? The worst damage these various power groups could inflict on Waterdeep is to cause the people to distrust the rule of the Lords of Waterdeep. The city is already weakened from the various wars and conflicts...
I think part of the reason for all the infiltration is to show that no system, even Waterdeep's, is perfect and inviolate.
Let us not forget also that Waterdeep, perhaps more so than any other major city or township on the Sword Coast, has had its fair share of corrupt rulers in the past that have mostly all had interests in nothing more than filling their own coffers with more and more gold regardless of the suffering this may cause the locale populace. Add to this, a number of ineffective political bodies, who've likely allowed criminal interests to grow unchecked in some parts of the government, and you begin to see how the history of Waterdeep's government is marked by its connections with various evil beings.
Guild rule, monstrous creature criminal syndicates... despite the purges that have occured from time to time and the efforts that the Lords have employed to completely remove such vile influences from Waterdeep, the legacies of past interferences likely remain in some way, even in the present form of the government that now rules the City of Splendors.
The current views on Waterdeep and its government, I think, reflects this history particularly well.
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 19 Nov 2005 04:36:47 |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
Piergieron
