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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Nov 2005 : 20:24:10
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All right, my first topic(this is so going to blow up in my face)
Ahum, my question is, how many different kinds of dragons are there? And where are they mentioned? I`ve always known about the chromatic and metallic varieties, as well as shadow dragons, but then I hear about gem dragons, sun wyrms etc. I wouldn`t be surprised if there was a yellow cucumber dragon, with the inflation in draconic species going on.......
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If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2005 : 20:28:55
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Brown, fang, shadow, and song dragons appeared in Monsters of Faerun.
Gem dragons, the felldrakes, the linnorms, and hellfire wyrms appeared in the MMII.
Ambush drakes, dracotaurs, dragon eels, rage drakes, and ssvaklor appeared in the MMIII.
Sea drakes and sunwyrms appeared in the FF.
Rattelyrs are in SS.
And there are more in the Draconomicon, but I don't have my copy back yet to check what's in there.
EDIT: Forgot Underdark's portal drakes, LEoF's gorynynch, Races of Stone's stone drakes, and the ELH's force and prismatic dragons. |
Edited by - Arivia on 02 Nov 2005 20:37:55 |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2005 : 20:34:12
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| Man, I knew it`s called Dungeons&Dragons, but this is complete overkill.(sinking down on his knees muttering: "there`s too many of them, too many") |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2005 : 20:39:37
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 Can one really have too many dragons?
Don't forget the asian dragons in Oriental Adventures. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Thelonius
Senior Scribe
Spain
730 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2005 : 20:43:19
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| And the dracoliches.... |
"If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single ideal." - Kreia
"I THINK I JUST HAD ANOTHER NEAR-RINCEWIND EXPERIENCE"- Discworld's Death frustrated after Rincewind scapes his grasp... again.
"I am death, come for thee" - Nimbul, from Baldur's Gate I just before being badly spanked
Sapientia sola libertas est |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2005 : 20:46:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Can one really have too many dragons?
Don't forget the asian dragons in Oriental Adventures.
Don't have that at hand to check, and then there's the handful in 3e Dragon...
EDIT: @Thelonius: That's a template, not a species of dragon. |
Edited by - Arivia on 02 Nov 2005 20:47:21 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2005 : 20:47:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Can one really have too many dragons?
Don't forget the asian dragons in Oriental Adventures.
Don't have that at hand to check, and then there's the handful in 3e Dragon...
I don't even own that book at all, I just leafed through it.  |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Belthor
Seeker
USA
52 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2005 : 21:00:01
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| I have no clue as to how many there are, but I do know how many I'd rather avoid if possible. ALL of them! |
If the rest of humanity were only as smart as my familiar...... |
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hooper101
Learned Scribe
USA
117 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2005 : 21:21:39
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| Belthor, One is coming to a dungeon near you! |
Die, die, die ,die, die, why won't you just die you silly dragon! |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2005 : 21:26:06
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| Damn, and here I thought I'd get the first chance at throwing one at him... |
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1715 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2005 : 22:35:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
Brown, fang, shadow, and song dragons appeared in Monsters of Faerun.
Gem dragons, the felldrakes, the linnorms, and hellfire wyrms appeared in the MMII.
Ambush drakes, dracotaurs, dragon eels, rage drakes, and ssvaklor appeared in the MMIII.
Sea drakes and sunwyrms appeared in the FF.
Rattelyrs are in SS.
And there are more in the Draconomicon, but I don't have my copy back yet to check what's in there.
EDIT: Forgot Underdark's portal drakes, LEoF's gorynynch, Races of Stone's stone drakes, and the ELH's force and prismatic dragons.
SS? What source is this?
SES
The guy who wrote the rattelyr up from the Rags Morales tip-of-the-hat to the Jabberwocky in FORGOTTEN REALMS #24 |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2005 : 22:42:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
SS? What source is this?
SES
The guy who wrote the rattelyr up from the Rags Morales tip-of-the-hat to the Jabberwocky in FORGOTTEN REALMS #24
Shining South, the new one. Dwalimar Omen, the Astrolabe of Nimbral, and the Realms Master are also mentioned in this tome.
I was very pleased with this further validation of the comic books.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 02 Nov 2005 22:42:59 |
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Darkheyr
Learned Scribe
264 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2005 : 07:19:33
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| Dont forget the deep dragons... |
silm.pw - A Neverwinter Nights Persistent World |
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Thelonius
Senior Scribe
Spain
730 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2005 : 07:23:02
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quote:
@Thelonius: That's a template, not a species of dragon.
I always get lost in those matters....  |
"If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single ideal." - Kreia
"I THINK I JUST HAD ANOTHER NEAR-RINCEWIND EXPERIENCE"- Discworld's Death frustrated after Rincewind scapes his grasp... again.
"I am death, come for thee" - Nimbul, from Baldur's Gate I just before being badly spanked
Sapientia sola libertas est |
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Khaa
Seeker
USA
80 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2005 : 13:06:41
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Sure is a lot of dragons... where do they all hide at? Mountains have to be like a private retirement home for dragons, because not many dragons really terrorize the country side. Seems fishy to me...
Maybe they are planning a invasion to destroy the other races! |
Ever want another forum? Well try out www.icewinddale.com |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2005 : 14:22:48
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I hear that they all have nice bungalows in Southern Faerun. A couple of Dragons, I hear, have purchased some time shares down in Chult. Hear it's a great market, like the Californian Housing market.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Kianna
Learned Scribe
USA
155 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2005 : 14:54:02
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Hey, that dragon hoard is only good if you spend, it right? I doubt dragons are keen on investing in the Waterdeep Stock Market. But oh the possibilities....
Don't forget there are tons of dragon-like creatures like the thunderheads. I think that's from the Mystara MM though. :) |
Huzzah! |
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Forge
Learned Scribe
USA
218 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2005 : 15:01:44
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I'm kinda with you guys on this. For a Dragon to be eerie and mysterious and basically rare you have to have at least some measure of scarcity. With this many varieties out there there is NO scarcity.
I think what we are seeing though is a reflection of game mechanics and generations of gamers attempting to maintain and refine the mystique of the dragon. What fun is a red/white/black Dragon when you KNOW his breath weapon, likely spell capacity and tactics? It becomes old hat after a time and you come up with something new.
X amount of campaigns later, something new will have to come up to maintain interest or fill a niche in a campaign that needs something powerful to offset your growing power in the PC group. Mix in a high magic campaign setting like FR where anything can (and will) interbreed or planeswalk or mutate due to "Magical emanations"...
Let this continue for years, sometimes decades and there ya go. |
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hooper101
Learned Scribe
USA
117 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2005 : 16:40:50
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| I agree, yet I do feel Dragons are rare it's just DM's who love to scare people with them who toss them out every session. I played once with a Dm who had us fighting a dragon every other time we met. I should admit I was 14 and thought it was fun at the time. What usually happens is that the Dm doesnt know how to use all the dragons skills and therefore the group has an easy time of it. Also, I think the gaming community tends to think that there are a ton of 16th level charaters running around in the world, not so. If you look at it with a critical eye you will notice that if your character gets beyond 3rd level she is now in "Hero Status". Most of the NPc's in a town would be way below this level (to help with understanding this figure that average stat is 10, now go look at your character sheet). A party of 11th level characters should then be well known in their region and their actions should be large enough to affect said region. When you reach 16th level we are talking geo-political type campaigns, I also get the sense that not many campaigns are being thought out in this way, probablly because most people want to be in 'mano a mano' battles and not directing an army and caring for politics and regional or world issues. This is why I almost always stop a campaign before my characters reach these levels (11th for me is good) the very thought that these characters would be grounded in defending some area stops me from moving on. I prefer playing at levels where the reality of the story is not compromised by too many herculean heros running around in one place. |
Die, die, die ,die, die, why won't you just die you silly dragon! |
Edited by - hooper101 on 03 Nov 2005 17:09:46 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2005 : 17:15:34
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quote:
Originally posted by hooper101
What usually happens is that the Dm doesnt know how to use all the dragons skills and therefore the group has an easy time of it.
I think that's the bulk of the issue, right there. I've heard people talk about how their 9th level ranger could eat a dragon for lunch, and I'm always thinking "Not if I was running the dragon!"
Too many DMs fail to play monsters intelligently. A well-run dragon should be very difficult to kill for a party of high level characters, not just another large target that sits there and takes a lot of damage without fighting back effectively.
And I think that's part of why there's so many draconic breeds: to present a new challenge. But if dragons were played correctly, there wouldn't be a need for a new challenge -- even a standard red or blue would prove sufficiently challenging.
More emphasis should be given to playing monsters as intelligent opponents, rather than giving us another book full of unthinking damage magnets. That's a lot of why I preferred the monster write-ups in 2E: monsters were more than just a collection of stats. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2005 : 17:38:28
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I was running a game with five characters with an average of fifth level across the lot of them. They ran into a YOUNG blue dragon, still on the edge of being medium sized. Thankfully, my players like to role play, and were quite spooked by a dragon. The dragon spoke with them, demanded tribute, then realized that it had to fly off to alert his elders about the party. The dragon was grappled by the half ogre monk (that large grapple check works wonders), but the dragon still managed to knock the cleric and the sorcerer out of the fight and down to negatives on the first round, and batter the monk senseless before the dwarf managed to hack it to pieces, while the driud revived the cleric.
Afterwards several of the players triumphantly declared that they had killed their first dragons, loudly proclaiming that they were dragon killers. Then the monk's player pointed out to everyone . . . "This thing almost killed half of us in its first attack, and its SMALLER THAN I AM . . . lets get out of here before we run into an adult!" |
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Firhyanda
Learned Scribe
USA
108 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2005 : 21:38:07
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Greetings All
I don’t think that there is such a thing as too many dragons just too many dragon encounters. Variety is an excellent thing it’s the over use of dragons in general that make the encounters with them mundane. To me a dragon is an overwhelming mythic force unto itself. When I DM any there are never more then at most 2 dragon encounters in a campaign levels one to twenty. As a rule of thumb when a dragon is encountered it will be +1 Cr above the party for every 5 levels the average party member has. The DM should also note that just because you slay the dragon does not mean you are entitled to its hoard 90% + of all dragon encounters will not take place in its lair. How large is the area a dragon hunts in, vary big young ranger try and track it back to its lair good luck.
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Kianna
Learned Scribe
USA
155 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2005 : 23:56:02
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I agree with you.
But I do also feel that every adventuring party at some time should have some type of encounter with a dragon. After all, it is called Dungeons & Dragons. :) |
Huzzah! |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2005 : 08:54:22
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I was running a game with five characters with an average of fifth level across the lot of them. They ran into a YOUNG blue dragon, still on the edge of being medium sized. Thankfully, my players like to role play, and were quite spooked by a dragon. The dragon spoke with them, demanded tribute, then realized that it had to fly off to alert his elders about the party. The dragon was grappled by the half ogre monk (that large grapple check works wonders), but the dragon still managed to knock the cleric and the sorcerer out of the fight and down to negatives on the first round, and batter the monk senseless before the dwarf managed to hack it to pieces, while the driud revived the cleric.
Afterwards several of the players triumphantly declared that they had killed their first dragons, loudly proclaiming that they were dragon killers. Then the monk's player pointed out to everyone . . . "This thing almost killed half of us in its first attack, and its SMALLER THAN I AM . . . lets get out of here before we run into an adult!"
Yes, this is how it should be. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Khaa
Seeker
USA
80 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2005 : 12:54:32
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| I didnt say there should be hardly any Dragons, I just said there are too many. Im quite good at using them, too. But that doesn't mean that since I know how to make the fight hard, I should throw one up all the time. I admit fighting a dragon is fun (my character is a dragon slayer) but it gets old after awhile. I know there are millions of ways to fight one, but come on... |
Ever want another forum? Well try out www.icewinddale.com |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2005 : 15:11:07
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I agree with you - I've come across two kinds of DMs with regards to Dragons - ones that make it way too easy and the others that make them too invincible.
Just once! I want to find the one that runs them just right.
Ok, that post did not start out to be a Goldilocks reference.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2005 : 20:11:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
More emphasis should be given to playing monsters as intelligent opponents, rather than giving us another book full of unthinking damage magnets. That's a lot of why I preferred the monster write-ups in 2E: monsters were more than just a collection of stats.
*nods* Especially in the case of dragons, who often enjoy intrigue and manipulation just as much as humans do (and they are usually smarter, to boot). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Khaa
Seeker
USA
80 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2005 : 13:04:42
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| I wish I could find the "Dragon Guru DM" too |
Ever want another forum? Well try out www.icewinddale.com |
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Houston, we have dragons.......
