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hooper101
Learned Scribe
USA
117 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Nov 2005 : 17:49:34
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Spoiler warning please dont read unless you have read the book
Hey can anyone else see RAS moving toward a redemption of Artemis?
I have felt this way for a long time. I dont know that we will ever see Artemis in Mooshies grove being trained as a ranger but I do see him turning good. He is starting already. Although he did toss that one character out of the wagon but that was not exactly an evil act. I don't know but this story kind of rings the same tones as the Wulfgar redemtion, it's not the same story but the themes are close. Also I am leaning on the Adryian experience from Demon War.
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Die, die, die ,die, die, why won't you just die you silly dragon! |
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Lameth
Learned Scribe
Germany
196 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2005 : 19:25:51
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Hmmm, Jarlaxle drives him to some point. But I don`t think he will become good in the future.
At some point in the future Artemis will meet Drizzt again, I`m damn sure about that.
But I´m not sure what Artemis will do, but I see his face right now before me :-) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2005 : 20:15:48
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| To answer your question, I definitely see this guy changing, hopefully for the better. And it seems like Jarlaxle has had a hand in that. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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hammer of Moradin
Senior Scribe
USA
758 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2005 : 16:56:08
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| A few years of Jarlaxle therapy and who knows. I don't see him ever becoming good. Redeemed, maybe. I think Jarlaxle is pushing him towards becoming a figurehead leader that he can control. He sees the potential for what Artemis could have been, and wants to make him a shadow of that, which, as we know, will not happen. Or, at least not for long. |
"Hurling himself upon his enemies, he terrified them with slaughter!"
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium
Candlekeep proverb: If a thing is said often enough, fools aplenty will believe it to be true. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2005 : 19:12:23
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quote:
Originally posted by hammer of Moradin
A few years of Jarlaxle therapy and who knows. I don't see him ever becoming good. Redeemed, maybe. I think Jarlaxle is pushing him towards becoming a figurehead leader that he can control.
Knowing Jarlaxle, I wouldn't doubt that.
As for being redeemed, I guess it depends on the definition of "redeemed". What's important, to me, is that Artemis is now being developed as a person in his own right and is no longer stuck in the role of being "Drizzt's dark mirror" (which was stupid to begin with--antagonists and supporting characters should not be defined in terms of how they relate to the "hero"). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2005 : 22:35:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Knowing Jarlaxle, I wouldn't doubt that.
As for being redeemed, I guess it depends on the definition of "redeemed". What's important, to me, is that Artemis is now being developed as a person in his own right and is no longer stuck in the role of being "Drizzt's dark mirror" (which was stupid to begin with--antagonists and supporting characters should not be defined in terms of how they relate to the "hero").
I agree, oh so much -- that's a syndrome (which I like to call "mobile mirror") that's extremely rampant in the genre: everyone else but the hero is a cardboard who has no life of their own -- they just exist to either reassure the hero, tell him how great he is, have an obsessive rivalry with the hero, or induce angst. |
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hooper101
Learned Scribe
USA
117 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2005 : 22:55:46
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| Using foils is not a fantas only thing. This dark mirror is as much a part of literature as metaphor, simile, plot line. It is nice to have Artemis' character fleshed out though. I think the fact that fans asked for these books is a tribute to how well written these two characters are. I was once told by one of my professors "a great villan is one that you find yourself caring about, not just one you fear" RAS accomplished this feat. He also accomplished it in the Demon War series for those who care. |
Die, die, die ,die, die, why won't you just die you silly dragon! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2005 : 22:57:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
As for being redeemed, I guess it depends on the definition of "redeemed". What's important, to me, is that Artemis is now being developed as a person in his own right and is no longer stuck in the role of being "Drizzt's dark mirror" (which was stupid to begin with--antagonists and supporting characters should not be defined in terms of how they relate to the "hero").
That's why I'm enjoying these books, myself. Artemis was not at all interesting until we started seeing him as something other than the Anti-Drizzt. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Drakul
Senior Scribe
USA
367 Posts |
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Lameth
Learned Scribe
Germany
196 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2005 : 19:03:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Artemis was not at all interesting until we started seeing him as something other than the Anti-Drizzt.
Anti-Drizzt....that`s a good one.  |
Edited by - Lameth on 03 Nov 2005 19:03:57 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2005 : 20:38:11
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*chuckles* I agree that character foils aren't new and aren't just a fantasy thing, but like some other people here I prefer it when characters are developed and treated with respect in their own right. Also, in the case of Drizzt/Artemis, the "dark mirror concept" was WAY heavy-handed, and IMHO not too convincing. I can't quite "buy" that Drizzt would have been a copy of Artemis had he stayed in the Underdark/turned evil/whatever, and neither can I believe that Artemis would have been a second Drizzt if he had had a better life.
I'm not ready to say that Artemis Entreri is on the path to leading a life of heroism, but I like the direction in which Salvatore is taking him. Entreri seems much more human in Promise of the Witch-King; some say he was out of character, but I think he is way more interesting now than he was when he was a cold, emotionless killer who didn't crack a smile or a frown and was obsessed with Drizzt for no apparent reason. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2005 : 18:57:24
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Well, they did explain the out of character arc with the introduction of a very plausible reason. If he had never had that push, I don't think he would have done half the things he did in the book - and as RAS points out - Entreri can't believe it himself.
I agree that he may not have been a perfect anti-Drizzt, but I think at least he did well as Drizzt's foil. He showed a ruthless, efficient killer, exactly what Drizzt could have been (possible worse).
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Ordin_Solandar
Acolyte
Canada
40 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2005 : 17:48:49
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I'd have to disagree with you as Jarlaxle isn't a nice dude!
No I don't think he's out to redeem Artemis Entreri but rather change how he lives his life. He is already the perfect weapon as it were and doesn't seem capable of getting much better after all he is getting older. We have still yet to see if Entreri is actually developing shade abilities but if that is so then he will have to pay Shar to keep them, or mentaly wrestle with his shadow every time he wishes to use a shade ability.
In my opinion the assasin is moving from a lawful evil (dominator) towards a more neutral evil path. Artemis has never killed just for the sake of killing, he does it for money or out of annoyance. Jarlaxle seems more interested in making Entreri enjoy life and actually gain connections/relationships with other people to conform with what the dark elf considers living.
Spoilers:
Seriously though Jarlaxle seems bent on creating Bregan'Dearthe all over again Vassa/Blood stone lands. Seemingly willing to take on king Gareth himself if need be and man is he in a position to do it. Gareth is getting on in years and Jarlaxle's new toys might just tip the balance in his favor especially if he has the backing of Kimmuriel and the Citadel of Assasins! |
Its easy not to care what people think, it harder to try! |
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Belthor
Seeker
USA
52 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2005 : 23:44:28
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| I've always been a big fan of the confrontation with ones own mortality. I think that Artemis has finally realized that there is more to life than what he was doing prior to his meeting Jarlaxle. I believe that Jarlaxle is just helping him along that path. We'll have to wait and see why. |
If the rest of humanity were only as smart as my familiar...... |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2005 : 00:31:32
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Well, the whole flute thing changing Entreri didn't need to happen. I would have liked it better if he had just changed instead of having an "excuse" to change, per se.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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fireblazer
Acolyte
2 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2005 : 02:24:15
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| After reading the book, I think that Artemis is finally feeling happier since his last fight with his nemesis and he still thinks that Drizzt is dead. this allow him to focus on his inner feelings while Jarlaxle provides a lot of inspiration - he is his muse, one tentative step away from true friendship. the assissin discovers so many feelings deep in his heart, exactly what Drizzt has and had embraced instead of shunning away from them. and finally, Entreri falls in love, perhaps for the first time in his life. the only thing he needs to find now is faith. |
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Ordin_Solandar
Acolyte
Canada
40 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2005 : 04:48:44
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Actually I think Entreri knows the Drizzt isn't dead...
See in Servant of the Shard Jarlaxle keeps on dropping hints about Drizzt and Artemis's final response is "does it matter?". See this is why the whole Jarlaxle/Entreri duo is so amuseing as they know more about one anothers intentions then the aught.
Yes the flute bit is a bit of a cop out as I felt RAS had done an effective job of moveing AE's character along from what has been transpiring sinch SOTS, That curious sword, and the story from year of the dragon anthology. |
Its easy not to care what people think, it harder to try! |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2005 : 18:18:59
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| I personally would prefer it if Artemis decided he didn't care about Drizzt anymore, but knowing RAS's writing style I doubt that will happen. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2005 : 18:49:01
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Why should he care? He has Calihye now, who might be a permanent fixture with Entreri in mind. He has his emotions coming back and he's acted a hero - if he regressed back to trying to defeat Drizzt, it would be utterly foolish, and I would probably stop reading his works.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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DrJackal
Acolyte
21 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2005 : 20:36:08
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I don't know if Artemis would ever become "good". I think it's possible for him to move away from his career as an assasin and become neutral-based in alignment, and a regular mercenary. Like a previous poster, I'm disappointed the flute (which I don't recall seeing anywhere before -- did it appear in a short story I missed?)is the impetuous, and not Artemis consciously kicking and screamingchoosing to change. Granted, given the apparent fannnish raspberry Spine of the Worldgot, I can see where RAS would go for the Macguffin.
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"I was never on anyone's side in the first place, so how could I betray them?" -- Akabane Kuroudo.
"No man is a black magician in his own eyes." --- Richard Cavendish, The Black Arts |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2005 : 21:47:32
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quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
Why should he care? He has Calihye now, who might be a permanent fixture with Entreri in mind. He has his emotions coming back and he's acted a hero - if he regressed back to trying to defeat Drizzt, it would be utterly foolish, and I would probably stop reading his works.
C-Fb
Oh, I'm with you on that--but knowing Salvatore I'm skeptical of how much Artemis will "get over" Drizzt.
By the way, I think it's a shame that the Spine of the World was so unliked; I thought it had more heart than many of RAS's other works. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2005 : 22:26:21
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Well, Spine of the World was good - but I don't think it's the type of book that most RAS fans want to read. It had a lot of character exposition and most people who read the books like his battle scenes, which may be repetitive, but enjoyable for the most part.
I am hoping that if Drizzt and Entreri meet again, it won't result in another (!!!!!) battle. They should just speak, and then go their separate ways - that would freak the Drizzt character out more than anything else.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2005 : 23:14:44
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quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
Well, Spine of the World was good - but I don't think it's the type of book that most RAS fans want to read. It had a lot of character exposition and most people who read the books like his battle scenes, which may be repetitive, but enjoyable for the most part.
Very true. Going by what a lot of internet-using fans say, a lot of them are most concerned about battles, Drizzt's fighting prowess, and adventure. I can see why they were none-too-keen on the romance novel-esqe Spine of the World, but I thought it a refreshing change of pace.
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I am hoping that if Drizzt and Entreri meet again, it won't result in another (!!!!!) battle. They should just speak, and then go their separate ways - that would freak the Drizzt character out more than anything else.
C-Fb
I agree--and I'd love to see that. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Ordin_Solandar
Acolyte
Canada
40 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2005 : 23:49:40
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Artemis's character development is indeed intrigueing and as far as I have read we've only touched on 3 of the possible sources for this change.
1.)Relationships friendship or otherwise
2.)Artemis getting over Drizzt
3.) the flute
4.) Yet I'd infer that Artemis is actually having a conflict with his shadow and at the moment isn't aware of it. Shadow selves tend to be the polar opposite of the characters dominant persona. As seen in the "Return of the Archwizards" series everyones shadow reacts a different way. |
Its easy not to care what people think, it harder to try! |
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Crust
Learned Scribe
USA
273 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2006 : 21:03:00
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I just finished Promise over the weekend, and I must say it's one of my favorite of RAS's FR novels. It was awesome.
One of my gamers and I were talking about Artemis and Jarlaxle before our game this Sunday. Why do they stay together? Mutual gain? Sure. But there's definitely more in this novel. There's emotion here.
I was carefully watching both their actions... the actions of the entire party, in fact. It was very, very interesting watching the group dynamic while they explored the lich's castle. Ellery on the cusp, or trying to reach that cusp, of paladinhood. Mariabronne clearly the only truly benevolent hero. Cathan and Athrogate clearly antagonistic (if not clearly sinister)... Very interesting.
What I also loved about the book was how Entreri really seemed to have a powerful internal conflict, moreso than in any other novel. Arrayan and to a lesser degree Calihye contribute to this, which I thought was great. He even shows genuine fear when the dragon descends upon him, and we see his limits when he tangles with Athrogate. Of course, we also get to see him being extremely cool (especially concerning Calihye and Cathan). Entreri was stretched to his limits in this book, both physically and emotionally.
I like Jarlaxle. His roguish, almost foppish persona has never quit sat well with me, but he is clever and interesting. He's definitely a selfish jerk, vanishing into shadow and leaving Entreri with his cheese out in the wind everytime the situation takes a turn. He must also have a bunch of ranks in knowledge (arcana) to be able to at least handle and understand the lich's tome and two phylacteries (one being that of a dracolich). Eh... He is a great example of an evil, dastardly dark elf, though. I'll give him that.
Probably what pleased me the most is the possibilities in the future. The dragon sisters. Those two phylacteries. Gareth Dragonsbane. Knellict... And, of course... Drizzt is still alive...   |
"That's right, hurl back views that force ye to think by name-calling - 'tis the grand old tradition, let it not down! Anything to keep from having to think, or - Mystra forfend - change thy own views!"
Narnra glowered at her father. "Just how am I to learn how to think? By being taught by you?"
"Some folk in the Realms would give their lives for the chance to learn at my feet," Elminster said mildly. "Several already have."
~from Elminster's Daughter, Ed Greenwood |
Edited by - Crust on 09 Jan 2006 21:05:47 |
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Feanor
Learned Scribe
100 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2006 : 16:31:10
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| I've heard something about Artemis falling in love in Promise of the Witch-King, can anyone give some details about this ? (spoilers are required, don't be concerned with them) |
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Promise of the witch king/ Artemis
