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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Oct 2005 : 06:12:37
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Have you guys ever, as a DM, put your PC's into an unwinnable situation? In tonights session I did just that and I'm feeling like maybe I shouldn't have.
The PC's were in Phlan and were gathering information about a string of current events that had the populace in an uproar. One of the PC's who is a charisma based rogue rolled a 33 on his gather information check.
In order to make my world whole and not just railroad PC's I try to leave tons of options open to the players and have things going on that don't necessarily have to do with PC's, so, the character that got the ridiculously high gather information check heard a rumor about the owners of the Red Spyglass in Phlan being shapechangers. This had nothing to do with their adventure but they went to check it out anyway.
Portal in Phlan (Red Spyglass) can be found here...
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=fr/pg20030219a
So, the PC's end up finding the portal and opening it with the appropriate spell, knock. However, since they didn't have the appropriate key the portal malfunctioned as per table 2.2 in the FRCS. I let the PC who opened the door roll the percentage die and unfortunately he rolled that the portal functions properly. Then I randomly rolled which direction they were to travel and unfortunately came up with south.
This took them to the Northkeep Portal.
http://www.geocities.com/aoduke/index/dungeons_and_dragons_stuff/moonsea_portal.html
In case you choose not to use the link, the Northkeep Portal is kept by a CR 20 Lich Necromancer. The average party level for the group is 7. Absolutely unwinnable situation.
I really felt like crap doing it but I always stress to them that not every "hook" is the adventure that you should be following. 7th level PC's shouldn't be traipsing through unknown portals right???
Anyways, I ended up dropping a circle of death in the first round which killed 3 of the 6 party members  . One of the remaining three was fear striken and ran and the other two attempted to talk their way out of the situation. One of the PC's who was left was a necromancer and rolled a pretty decent diplomacy check (18-20) so I allowed them to talk their way out of instant death. However, they were forced into taking a gease spell to show their loyalty to their new master (yup, you guessed it, the Lich).
I felt like a prick putting the PC's in a hopeless situation but part of me thinks it was the right thing to ensure "realism". None of the players seemed to upset about it, except for one because he is moving in about a month so he doesn't feel like making a new character for two or three sessions after becoming attached to this one. Other than that people understood.
Just wondering if anybody else has put the PC's into a hopeless situation or if I'm the only Jerk? Do you feel that sometimes it is best to make it like a video game and only have low level encounters for low level PC's and high level encounters for high level PC's? I just always think it's cheesey to have everyone you face be relatively challenging no matter how powerful you are. Why do 18th level characters never run into orc warriors when traveling through the northlands?
I don't know, this is just me feeling like I did something wrong and defending myself all at the same time  .
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Edited by - Chosen of Bane on 26 Oct 2005 06:13:33
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2005 : 14:48:59
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Off hand I think you should have rerolled or had Lich taking a vacation, that perhaps only minions be encountered. You killed half the party, enslaved two and have only one left free with no support. No DM should put party in a no win situation like you describe. A warning of not following up every rummor is not enough that steping though a portal three die in first round of the first encounter.
The DM should not put PCs in a no win situation without a fair amount of warning as much as you "think it's cheesey to have everyone you face be relatively challenging no matter how powerful you are.". It is not about winning, it is not about being able to kill the PCs. The game is about taking some risks and facing occasional PC death, either because they ignored warnings when headed a dangerious direction or sometimes it is a matter of dice rolls if DM very lucky and players very unlucky in a combat.
The Lich should not have been reachable by 6 7th level characters at all. If that portal was used there should have been some undead guards that would be hard to deal with, indicationg that clearly their master was more powerful. Not sure how your players feel about the encounter, most would be looking for a new DM. Sometimes PCs do end up in No win situations, but that should mostly occur because of their decsions (deciding to try to rob the ancient Red Dragon hoping he is sleeping, when they know they can not beat it when awake). Steping though a portal perhaps foolish if not high enough level or equiped to control where they will show up, that in my view does not justify running into a no win situation. The only reason two survived to become slaves was because of a lucky high dice roll by the player.
"Why do 18th level characters never run into orc warriors when traveling through the northlands?"
It depends on the DM and the game. Some players get bored with easy kills that just comsume time. Some DMs add class levels and/or HD so that the orc warriors are a contest. Orcs might have heard about the powerful band of adventuers and decide not to attack them, perfering easier targets like commonors.
Other DMs might agree what you did was fair and even if I was at the table top might have heard warnings about using portals being very deadly well in advance before they decided to use one (that is perhaps having sat in the game I might change opinion about the players putting their PCs in a no win situation).
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2005 : 15:47:12
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I will not dispute anything that you have said, part of me feels the same way, that is why I posted this. There are some factors that are making me lean the other way though.
Here is some clarification.
The Circle of Death spell was in the first round of combat with the lich, not the first round through the portal. The PC's knew they went through a portal. Found themselves in a huge vault filled with skeletons and they decide to poke around. After killing a handful of skeletons and zombies the Lich teleported in to see what was happening.
I was planning on letting the PC's ty to role-play the situation to try to escape but instead they attacked the Lich (those who had initiative better than the Lich).
As for getting to the portal. They knew that the end they were traveling from was guarded by two powerful shapeshifters (weretigers actually) and they went through great lengths to make sure they were not around when they were snooping around by the portal.
As for the slave thing, perhaps I didn't describe it very well because it was 2:00 am and I was exhausted. The party is evil to begin with. They are members of the Zhentarim. So being a minion of an evil overloard isn't too much of a stretch anyway. He simply made them accept a Geas spell stating they would aid him in his "cause". Essentially his plan in a nut shell is to reach pseudo-divinity himself by finding Myrkul's lingering essence and raising it as a greater undead under his control.
Once again, I am more upset than any of the players about this happening, it's kind of weird...unless they're just not telling me and I don't think that's it because we have a large group and others DM as well.
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2005 : 16:43:41
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Well that does sound a little better.
However if the skeletons and zombies were 1 to even 5 HD, I would more likely send a higher level minion (perhaps CR 10) to see who is making the noise. A CR 20 Lich can not be bothered about a few lowly guards personally. Also the party had at least time to decide if to attack or flee. Not as bad as I pictured from your first post, as I said I was not sitting at the table. If the players have had a tendency to attack everything they see (and of Evil alignment this is possible) you should have anticipated a high chance of attack occurring. Disabling magic I would have used in 1st round to give party a fair warning that the dude was very powerful.
Term slave was a little strong depending on what effects the Geas spell are when they decide to break their pledge to the Lich (looking at standard effects they might have 3 days to find somebody high enough level to dispel it). The fact that the surviving PCs be willing to work for the Lich is a plus as far as the survivors go and they can beat the Lich in time.
Depending on play, the Lich might even decide to raise the 3 killed and offer them a job as well. The last member might be reunited with party as an outside agent to try to locate mage or aid in betrayal of the Lich at the proper time. If this is possible I would not have last PC subject to the Geas spell. The party sent by new boss finds the last member on the way to do task set for them. This is one way to recover from this event. Some players also do not mind much PC death because they realized that it was their fault. All you can do is see what develops. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2005 : 17:06:17
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| You may have also let the lich take a few shots from them, and then continue talking to them, as if the attacks didn't even phase him. This might have made them more likely to pay attention to his words, and would really reinforce that he was out of their league. I had a similar situation come up when the PCs were about 4th level and they ran into a group of Shadovar diplomats at Zhentil Keep. I assumed they would keep their distance but they walked right up to them an started talking. Thankfully, I had my backup plan (if they attacked, the Shadovar diplomat would cast a curse over all of them then leave), and the whole night was very tense since they were de facto prisoners and watched every single thing they did until they had a chance to leave. |
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Thysl
Seeker
USA
64 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2005 : 17:47:42
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quote:
Why do 18th level characters never run into orc warriors when traveling through the northlands?
They do, but the orcs are smart enough to leave the strike-team of highly skilled adventurers with glowing weapons, ornate armor, pouchs brimming with wands, scrolls, potions, and such alone. Alternatly the adventurers know about the orcs (+35 to spot checks anyone?) but know that the puny orcs can do no harm.
quote:
part of me thinks it was the right thing to ensure "realism"
A noble thing, that, but at the end of the day D&D is still a game. Those beloved characters are still numbers on a page and the world you happily craft is just a means to an end. The end is the PCs entertainment (and yours too, never forget). So, to err on the side of entertainment the Lich should have been replaced. Or (as a more 'realistic' notion) the Lich should have cackled at the PC's feeble attempts to attack it, Waves of Fatigue them, then claim them as servitors.
As it stands I probably wouldn't subject a good party to this treatement, but since they are dirty Zhentilar, its not that big a deal . Also keep in mind the Black Network has MANY high level wizard and clerics that will notice the PCs compulsion in short order. Now this may seem like an 'event erasure' (a crude 'that never happened patch') but that's better than completely rehashing months (sometimes years) of campaign planning.
Lastly I want you to stop worrying! Nothing breaks up a group like a GM that's lost their nerve! You did something you feel bad about, yes, though it wasn't all your fault. Accept your responsibility, make the neccesary changes to your GM style, and keep the game going.
Good luck, man, and may the force be with you.
Thysl |
There are as many nights as days, and the one is just as long as the other in the year's course. Even a happy life cannot be without a measure of darkness, and the word 'happy' would lose its meaning if it were not balanced by sadness.
--Carl Jung |
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Brom Greenstar
Acolyte
Argentina
25 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2005 : 12:39:51
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I did something on that style once. The party started behaving really bad (they even burned down an inn) so I lured them to a far away patch of forest (greed is a powerfull motivator) and killed them all with a wizard ghost. I was really angry.
The point is you can slaughter the party if you want, but you can't if you don't. It's ok (;)) to do it on purpose but not if it's by chance.
But you can make good from bad (I know there's an expression for that) You can transform your campaign in to a quest for freedom for the enslaved players, including the raised dead. Or you can turn them bad if they prefer. Posiblities are endless.
As I a side note never let the players know that the events that led them to the situation were not intentional. They'll feel really disapointed |
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DestroyYouAlot
Seeker
USA
69 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2005 : 14:58:04
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Now, see, I was ready to feel sort of bad for the PCs, but here's the kicker:
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Bane
I was planning on letting the PC's ty to role-play the situation to try to escape but instead they attacked the Lich (those who had initiative better than the Lich).
This can also be expressed as "getting what you deserve". Letting PCs get away with attacking everything they come across (especially if they're evil, and they live in a world where might makes right) is a bad idea, it leads to out-of-control parties really fast. And, at seventh level, it's hardly meta-gaming to realize that the wizardy-looking skeleton with twin fires twinkling in its eyes can probably hand you your ass.
As for taking them there in a first place, it's a portal. One they knew nothing about. Sure, some portals are safe, but some aren't, and they learned that lesson pretty quickly, one would hope.
Honestly, I might have had the lich cast disabling spells rather than circle of death, but if that's how you handled it, then - by all means - don't back down. Play it through like it was "supposed to happen", or you're gonna ruin the suspension of disbelief, and that's far worse than dead PCs. Besides, there are a million ways you can raise them and still have them suffer the consequences of their actions (host PCs? Resurrected PCs who have to deal with their new race/species? Plain ol' raised PCs, also under a geas?), and they'll definitely be smarter for the experience. |
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Hopeless Situation?
