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Delnyn
Senior Scribe

USA
878 Posts

Posted - 29 Nov 2020 :  16:39:03  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I am good with your description of the trade-off between the "toolbox size" versus available on "demand".

Definitely yes about wizards being the party Batman. The wizard is the problem solver, detective and the one who fills in the gaps left by the other party members. Wizards really should NOT be stockpiling on just combat spells. That is what warmages and to a lesser extent warlocks and sorcerors are for. If a wizard must blast, that is what wands are for. Otherwise, wizards in combat do better as battlefield controllers than in direct damage roles.

I heartily recommend the scroll started by Cosmar about filling his PC wizard's spellbook. For example, Ayrik made a very good point about including dispel magic. Certain spells have more occassions for use both in and out of combat. Dispel magic and summoning spells are the first that come to mind.

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

I am not convinced "best" should equate to combat prowess. Spontaneous casters of course have the advantage in spur-of-the-moment decision making situations, assuming their spell repertoire has a spell for the situation. Sorcerors work better in niche roles than wizards, all else being equal. Wizards are the Swiss Army knives of adventuring parties.


I'd argue that it's sorcerers that are the Swiss Army knives -- if they know a spell, it's always handy. The wizard who loaded up on combat spells, expecting a big fight, is going to be useless when he needs a utility spell he didn't memorize today.

Granted, sorcerers have less spells, so a wizard is more likely to know the most useful spell for a given situation -- but the tradeoff is that the wizard has to be prepared for that situation, and/or that it only happens once.

Wizards dominate when they can properly prepare -- but sorcerers are always prepared, though to a lesser extent. The wizard has a larger toolbox, but he may not have the right tool handy -- the sorcerer has a smaller toolbox, but all of his tools are always readily at hand.

Actually, wizards remind me of Batman. Batman fans will go on and on, at length, about how he can beat anyone at all, given time to prepare. And whether or not that's true, it doesn't change the fact that other supers always have their full suite of powers handy, and that an unprepared Batman will be in trouble.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36773 Posts

Posted - 29 Nov 2020 :  17:53:30  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

I am good with your description of the trade-off between the "toolbox size" versus available on "demand".

Definitely yes about wizards being the party Batman. The wizard is the problem solver, detective and the one who fills in the gaps left by the other party members. Wizards really should NOT be stockpiling on just combat spells. That is what warmages and to a lesser extent warlocks and sorcerors are for. If a wizard must blast, that is what wands are for. Otherwise, wizards in combat do better as battlefield controllers than in direct damage roles.


Actually had an argument here with someone who insisted that there was no possible circumstance in which a wizard shouldn't be fully loaded with combat spells. In his hidden tower in the middle of nowhere, crafting magic items and/or doing research? Combat spells. Hanging out with his lady? Combat spells. And so on...

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

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-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

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Delnyn
Senior Scribe

USA
878 Posts

Posted - 29 Nov 2020 :  18:16:03  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

I am good with your description of the trade-off between the "toolbox size" versus available on "demand".

Definitely yes about wizards being the party Batman. The wizard is the problem solver, detective and the one who fills in the gaps left by the other party members. Wizards really should NOT be stockpiling on just combat spells. That is what warmages and to a lesser extent warlocks and sorcerors are for. If a wizard must blast, that is what wands are for. Otherwise, wizards in combat do better as battlefield controllers than in direct damage roles.


Actually had an argument here with someone who insisted that there was no possible circumstance in which a wizard shouldn't be fully loaded with combat spells. In his hidden tower in the middle of nowhere, crafting magic items and/or doing research? Combat spells. Hanging out with his lady? Combat spells. And so on...



There is no reasoning with people who have that attitude. I only hope that player did not cause a TPK with his or her willful lack of preparation. "18 Intelligence but 3 Wisdom"
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cpthero2
Great Reader

USA
2284 Posts

Posted - 30 Nov 2020 :  07:14:21  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master Rupert,

haha, that is rich! You know, those people just have to hang out more and let it all sink in! ;)

Best regards,




Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Returnip
Learned Scribe

220 Posts

Posted - 30 Nov 2020 :  09:01:26  Show Profile Send Returnip a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Actually had an argument here with someone who insisted that there was no possible circumstance in which a wizard shouldn't be fully loaded with combat spells. In his hidden tower in the middle of nowhere, crafting magic items and/or doing research? Combat spells. Hanging out with his lady? Combat spells. And so on...



I had a player like that. He would always prepare maximized magic missile (ok, your enemy casts reflect projectiles) and then on top of that he always carried around a heavy crossbow because he didn't want to waste his spells, and since he couldn't shoot for sh't he mostly ended up pegging his companions in the back. Then he wanted to pick up the Loremaster prestige class...

On the other hand you have different fingers.
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Returnip
Learned Scribe

220 Posts

Posted - 30 Nov 2020 :  09:04:55  Show Profile Send Returnip a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
I could picture Deneir and Oghma getting irate if such a spell destroyed/damaged a repository (Candlekeep!) of books and other media of knowledge.


Waaay too many wards on Candlekeep for that being a problem, don't you think?

On the other hand you have different fingers.
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe

USA
878 Posts

Posted - 30 Nov 2020 :  14:02:27  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Returnip

quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
I could picture Deneir and Oghma getting irate if such a spell destroyed/damaged a repository (Candlekeep!) of books and other media of knowledge.


Waaay too many wards on Candlekeep for that being a problem, don't you think?



What wards? Larloch sucked them all dry and went to Myth Drannor for seconds.

Edited by - Delnyn on 30 Nov 2020 14:05:42
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader

Colombia
2436 Posts

Posted - 30 Nov 2020 :  14:17:59  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm sure it has to be a dragon. Perhaps Imvaernarho or Larendrammagar. Or one way older.

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 30 Nov 2020 14:24:52
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Returnip
Learned Scribe

220 Posts

Posted - 30 Nov 2020 :  18:11:47  Show Profile Send Returnip a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

quote:
Originally posted by Returnip

quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
I could picture Deneir and Oghma getting irate if such a spell destroyed/damaged a repository (Candlekeep!) of books and other media of knowledge.


Waaay too many wards on Candlekeep for that being a problem, don't you think?



What wards? Larloch sucked them all dry and went to Myth Drannor for seconds.



Did that happen after 3.5 ed? Because I'm stuck in the past.

On the other hand you have different fingers.
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cpthero2
Great Reader

USA
2284 Posts

Posted - 30 Nov 2020 :  21:41:30  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Acolyte Returnip,

haha, that is pretty nutty. Dressing up as the damage dealing wizard, to then want to be the ultimate diviner. Madness. Sounds RP intense... ;)

Best regards,






Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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cpthero2
Great Reader

USA
2284 Posts

Posted - 30 Nov 2020 :  21:43:37  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Acolyte Returnip,

No kidding. Look at how Deneir had Cadderly go deal with that elder vampire. lol Crispy doesn't even begin to demonstrate the rage. ;)

Best regards,




Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe

USA
878 Posts

Posted - 30 Nov 2020 :  23:37:07  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

I'm sure it has to be a dragon. Perhaps Imvaernarho or Larendrammagar. Or one way older.



For a dragon, I would add Daurgothoth to the mix. Your choices are excellent. Imvaernarho and Larendrammagar beat Daurgothoth as sorcerors, but Daurgothoth has 25 levels of wizardry as well, giving him massive versatility as well.

The minmaxer in me is sorely tempted to change his Wizard 20/ Archmage 5 to Wizard 10/Ultimate Magus 10/Archmage 5 (archmage going to the wizard spellcasting). That would bump up his sorceror caster level to 26 and wizard caster level to 29.
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cpthero2
Great Reader

USA
2284 Posts

Posted - 01 Dec 2020 :  04:55:17  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Senior Scribe Delnyn,

I think that (5) level split in transferring over to Ultimate Magus from Wizard is a winner. Very nice selection.

Best regards,



Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe

467 Posts

Posted - 06 Jul 2021 :  09:49:05  Show Profile  Visit PattPlays's Homepage Send PattPlays a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Returnip

quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

quote:
Originally posted by Returnip

quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
I could picture Deneir and Oghma getting irate if such a spell destroyed/damaged a repository (Candlekeep!) of books and other media of knowledge.


Waaay too many wards on Candlekeep for that being a problem, don't you think?



What wards? Larloch sucked them all dry and went to Myth Drannor for seconds.



Did that happen after 3.5 ed? Because I'm stuck in the past.


1487DR, Winter.

:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, Long Live Pluto: :IRC lives:


https://thisisstorytelling.wordpress.com

T_P_T
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe

USA
878 Posts

Posted - 08 Jul 2021 :  01:51:22  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I assume the "in the realms" clause in the topic header excludes Mystra.

Not sure how Vangerdahast got into the list but Vhostym, Larloch and Ioulaum were left out.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36773 Posts

Posted - 08 Jul 2021 :  03:01:54  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

I assume the "in the realms" clause in the topic header excludes Mystra.

Not sure how Vangerdahast got into the list but Vhostym, Larloch and Ioulaum were left out.



I don't know that I'd include Vhostym on a list of best spellcasters... He was certainly quite powerful, but he also put a lot of time and effort into getting enough power to move a rock so he could create an eclipse -- instead of creating one with a giant globe of darkness. If he was able to do the former, doing the latter would have been child's play for him.

All that effort for something so trivial and so much more easily accomplished...

I'm just not impressed with having so much power and then wasting it. It's the proverbial howitzer and a housefly thing.

That's why I can't consider him to be among the best.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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Returnip
Learned Scribe

220 Posts

Posted - 24 Mar 2023 :  21:34:27  Show Profile Send Returnip a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays

quote:
Originally posted by Returnip

quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

quote:
Originally posted by Returnip

quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
I could picture Deneir and Oghma getting irate if such a spell destroyed/damaged a repository (Candlekeep!) of books and other media of knowledge.


Waaay too many wards on Candlekeep for that being a problem, don't you think?



What wards? Larloch sucked them all dry and went to Myth Drannor for seconds.



Did that happen after 3.5 ed? Because I'm stuck in the past.


1487DR, Winter.



Ah yes. That is in the future in my world. :)

On the other hand you have different fingers.
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe

Ireland
705 Posts

Posted - 24 Apr 2023 :  19:10:01  Show Profile Send Shadowsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hello everyone long time no see.

Not sure if he's been mentioned but I would rate Cadderly up there as he is basically a Sorcerer Cleric who has access to every cleric spell on the fly.

“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien

*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*.
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